UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #24

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I think both things can be true. She did, IF guilty, try multiple times to send the child to the brink of death. That is attempted murder.

But I do think she enjoyed the process, of the child being on the brink, and all that entails. Just my personal opinion. I could be wrong.

But it could explain why she quickly points out babies who are about to collapse. And why none of the babies were found dead. I believe if she really wanted to, she could have given them triple the amount of air, or insulin, once the first few collapsed instead of dying.

I don't think she was setting out just to kill outright. I think it was more complicated than that. JMO

This is my opinion too.

Sadly, I believe she enjoyed the attention and drama that a struggling baby created and the 'excitement' and the role it gave her in it.

In order to perpetrate this type of behaviour she would need to have a very serious empathy deficit / lack of empathy and only be able to conduct 'performative empathy' or 'cognitive empathy'. Only the people who know her best over time would be able to comment on that and she would need psychiatric evaluation.

Maybe photographing the cards etc is part of the performative aspect for her and also helps her memory if she doesn't actually care because she hasn't the same feelings as an average person.

JMO MOO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

You know more about this case than I do. Maybe I am completely wrong. There's a chance we will never know exactly what the motivation might be?

I am going from the many texts between her and Dr Choc, where he heaps the praise on her for her amazing calm demeanour during the resuscitations. And they carry on long convos about it----her praising him as well, and saying there's no one she'd rather be beside her over him.

And he says the same about her, as she is so organised and makes the right decisions, etc.

And also how she talks to her coworkers about Team Spirit, and working together to save each baby, etc.

I agree with you that she tried to sabotage things and of course she allegedly did the damage in the first place. But in spite of that, she enjoyed being the Hero that helped save the day, AND/OR also being the martyr, who always had these tragic situations to deal with.

IMO, if she is guilty, this is the motive sitting behind these crimes. Romance and bonding in a 'crisis' where she can play any one of the archetypal roles.

I posted this weeks ago but there's the psychopath test conundrum -

Q: A young woman couldn't believe her luck when she met the man of her dreams attending the funeral of her mother. A few weeks later, that same young woman murdered her sister... Why?

A: So she could see the man of her dreams again.


It should really be 'sociopath' test.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Further to this, there were at least a couple of incidences where she downplayed the babies’ signs of deterioration. Off the top of my head one of the triplets (?) who was being proposed to move up to a higher dependency room, and she pushed back on that, and also this recent case where the designated nurse felt the baby’s crying meant another deterioration was imminent and Letby played it down.

She doesn't want the babies moving out of her arena?

JMO MOO

 

[WaxLyrical]

This is my opinion too.

Sadly, I believe she enjoyed the attention and drama that a struggling baby created and the 'excitement' and the role it gave her in it.

In order to perpetrate this type of behaviour she would need to have a very serious empathy deficit / lack of empathy and only be able to conduct 'performative empathy' or 'cognitive empathy'. Only the people who know her best over time would be able to comment on that and she would need psychiatric evaluation.

Maybe photographing the cards etc is part of the performative aspect for her and also helps her memory if she doesn't actually care because she hasn't the same feelings as an average person.

JMO MOO

Yes, almost a complete empathy deficit would be required, I think. There is some evidence, for me anyway, of no empathy for the babies. In many of her messages she talks of the pain caused to the parents, and it feels as though the babies are just viewed as something belonging to the parents, rather than little humans in their own right who had whole lives ahead of them. I don’t think there’s been a single instance where anything resembling empathy for the babies themselves has been heard?

 

[Tortoise]

10:37am

The trial is now resuming. The judge, Mr James Goss, informs jurors the court will be sitting no later than 3pm on Wednesday.
Nicholas Johnson KC, for the prosecution, is continuing to cross-examine Lucy Letby on Child K.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 5 - cross-examination continues

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Blondiexoxo]

This is my opinion too.

Sadly, I believe she enjoyed the attention and drama that a struggling baby created and the 'excitement' and the role it gave her in it.

In order to perpetrate this type of behaviour she would need to have a very serious empathy deficit / lack of empathy and only be able to conduct 'performative empathy' or 'cognitive empathy'. Only the people who know her best over time would be able to comment on that and she would need psychiatric evaluation.

Maybe photographing the cards etc is part of the performative aspect for her and also helps her memory if she doesn't actually care because she hasn't the same feelings as an average person.

JMO MOO

IMO if guilty she attempted to appear empathetic in her texts to colleagues. She uses the same phrase to describe the sadness of the loss of a baby and grief of parents ‘it was awful’. Aswell as attempting to demonstrate her sadness ‘I want to cry’ she says to doc choc. If guilty, I agree that to be capable of these acts she would have to seriously lack empathy aswell as genuine feelings of sadness over the events which is why some of her messages appear quite flat and lacking depth. The one that sticks out to me is how after losing 2 babies in 24 hours she goes from saying how ‘awful’ it is to… ‘I want to be in Ibiza’ it’s just completely inappropriate IMO, and shows her social awkwardness.

In messages I think she’s trying to say the things that she thinks others should say in those situations, it’s easier for her to try and show empathy in messages than in person IMO, in person she was being quite inappropriate at times having to be told to leave parents alone, going into bereaved parents smiling and chatting about their babies first bath, telling parents to put their not yet deceased baby in a basket, saying things such as ‘he’s not leaving here alive is he’. That IMO is why it’s only her messages that portray her upset and sympathising with the parents, but her alleged demeanour as testified to by parents and collages was just.. odd.

All MOO

 

[Tortoise]

10:40am

Mr Johnson asks Letby about an ET tube document, which she had entered at 06.10am on February 17, 2016. Child K desaturated at 6.15am.
Letby says she has "no memory of being at [Child K's] cotisde."

10:41am

Letby agrees Child K had been on morphine and would have been "well sedated"
NJ: "And yet the tube slipped again at 6.15am - just after you had been with her?"
LL: "I can't say that I was physically with her, no."
Letby says the notes she would have obtained for Child K were at the end of the bed, and she has no recollection of being physically with Child K at the cotside.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 5 - cross-examination continues

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Sweeper2000]

Yes, almost a complete empathy deficit would be required, I think. There is some evidence, for me anyway, of no empathy for the babies. In many of her messages she talks of the pain caused to the parents, and it feels as though the babies are just viewed as something belonging to the parents, rather than little humans in their own right who had whole lives ahead of them. I don’t think there’s been a single instance where anything resembling empathy for the babies themselves has been heard?

slight proof might be the text she sent saying they have to be careful about the heel prick on the babies as it causes discomfort. difficult to say but it’s true that emotionally unempathic people understand physical pain (individualistic) but not emotional which is collective. so Is she addressing physical discomfort but not emotional?

eta.
it might be possible for an individual to discount the physical pain caused if there is a gain for them.
as frightening and sickening as that sounds.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Yes, almost a complete empathy deficit would be required, I think. There is some evidence, for me anyway, of no empathy for the babies. In many of her messages she talks of the pain caused to the parents, and it feels as though the babies are just viewed as something belonging to the parents, rather than little humans in their own right who had whole lives ahead of them. I don’t think there’s been a single instance where anything resembling empathy for the babies themselves has been heard?

All this time I've been unwilling to fully believe that LL has perpetrated these crimes but now the penny dropped and I see exactly what's being dealt with here.

It's terrifying and chilling to know someone who has zero empathy and if guilty, and if this theory is true, everyone who has known her over time will have noticed this.

JMO MOO

 

[Sweeper2000]

All this time I've been unwilling to fully believe that LL has perpetrated these crimes but now the penny dropped and I see exactly what's being dealt with here.

It's terrifying and chilling to know someone who has zero empathy and if guilty, and if this theory is true, everyone who has known her over time will have noticed this.

JMO MOO

it has been stated she was noticed to be very conscientious, generally that takes empathy.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

IMO if guilty she attempted to appear empathetic in her texts to colleagues. She uses the same phrase to describe the sadness of the loss of a baby and grief of parents ‘it was awful’. Aswell as attempting to demonstrate her sadness ‘I want to cry’ she says to doc choc. If guilty, I agree that to be capable of these acts she would have to seriously lack empathy aswell as genuine feelings of sadness over the events which is why some of her messages appear quite flat and lacking depth. The one that sticks out to me is how after losing 2 babies in 24 hours she goes from saying how ‘awful’ it is to… ‘I want to be in Ibiza’ it’s just completely inappropriate IMO, and shows her social awkwardness.

In messages I think she’s trying to say the things that she thinks others should say in those situations, it’s easier for her to try and show empathy in messages than in person IMO, in person she was being quite inappropriate at times having to be told to leave parents alone, going into bereaved parents smiling and chatting about their babies first bath, telling parents to put their not yet deceased baby in a basket, saying things such as ‘he’s not leaving here alive is he’. That IMO is why it’s only her messages that portray her upset and sympathising with the parents, but her alleged demeanour as testified to by parents and collages was just.. odd.

All MOO

Attempting to 'appear empathic' = cognitive empathy = I know I'm supposed to feel sad about this (even tho I don't really)

'I want to cry' = saying it but not actually crying, ie not 'I can't stop crying'

'Ain't it Awful...' = inauthentic transactional past-time, according to Eric Berne, Games People Play

'he's not leaving here alive is he...' = flat out proof of zero empathy

IMO JMO

 

[Tortoise]

slight proof might be the text she sent saying they have to be careful about the heel prick on the babies as it causes discomfort. difficult to say but it’s true that emotionally unempathic people understand physical pain (individualistic) but not emotional which is collective. so Is she addressing physical discomfort but not emotional?

She could have been just repeating something the nurse had said earlier about the baby's heels.

 

[Tortoise]

10:47am

Mr Johnson asks about the 7.25am-7.30am desaturation. Letby says she has no memory of it.
Letby says she cannot recall any intervention regarding Child K at this point.
Mr Johnson says one of Letby's colleagues was called to the nursery.
NJ: "What were you doing in nursery room 1 at 7.30am?"
LL: "I can't answer that, I don't have any recollection of it."
The neonatal review is shown for February 17, 2016. Letby's duties include tending to her designated baby in room 2 at 7am.
Mr Johnson says there was no reason for Letby to be in room 1 at 7.30am. Letby says there can be many reasons.
Mr Johnson says Letby was "sabotaging [Child K] yet again, weren't you?"
Letby: "No."
Letby says she has no memory of it.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 5 - cross-examination continues

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[katydid23]

Dan O'Donoghue

@MrDanDonoghue

I'm back at Manchester Crown Court for the murder trial of Lucy Letby. The nurse is accused of murdering seven babies and attempting to murder a further ten at the Countess of Chester Hospital between 2015 and 2016. She denies all charges.




2:06 AM · Jun 5, 2023
·



Prosecutor Nick Johnson KC is set to resume his cross examination of Ms Letby at 10.30am.

Mr Johnson is continuing to ask Ms Letby about Child K. She was born at 25 weeks and was considered to be in a good condition, but as a precaution, arrangements were made to transfer her to Arrowe Park Hospital shortly after her birth in February 2016.

While waiting for transport, she was left in the care of Ms Letby, who, the prosecution said, deliberately dislodged her breathing tube.

Consultant Dr Ravi Jayaram has previously told the court he felt uneasy about Ms Letby being left with the child as the team were aware "of a number of unexpected and unusual events and we were aware of an association with Lucy Letby".

He said "no cause and effect had been ascribed", but he saw Ms Letby standing by the incubator, noticed the breathing tube was dislodged and saw the nurse do "nothing" to help until he arrived. The baby eventually stabilised, but died three days later.

Mr Johnson asks Ms Letby why she was seen in nursery one, where Child K was being cared for, on the morning of 17 February 2016. Ms Letby was assigned babies in nursery two

She says she doesn't have a specific memory of that but says 'staff go between nurseries all the time'

Mr Johnson puts it to Ms Letby that she was in nursery one as she was 'sabotaging (Child K) yet again', Ms Letby says 'no'

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

it has been stated she was noticed to be very conscientious, generally that takes empathy.

I wouldn't agree with that, depending on what one's definition of 'conscientious' is and what people mean by that word.

For example, people who have zero empathy are often extremely adept at establishing the rules of the environment they're in and adhering to them if they wish to be seen as 'good'. They can be very 'stepford' / robotic in that regard and be seen as utterly dependable and reliable. They can even go the extra mile if it's for a purpose and intended to have themself viewed in a good light or given higher privileges.

One's conscience is a different thing altogether.

JMO MOO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

She could have been just repeating something the nurse had said earlier about the baby's heels.

Sociopaths and narcissists are nothing if not little parrots. They most especially parrot anything they believe makes them sound worthy or valuable.

JMO MOO

 

[Tortoise]

10:53am

Letby says she "cannot say" if Child K moved her ET Tube more than once.
"I don't have independent memory of the tube slipping."
Letby is asked to look at her police interviews for Child K. Within there, Letby said she had believed Child K's tube had slipped at an earlier point.
Letby denies dislodging Child K's tube. Asked if she disputes her colleague's recollection of Child K's desaturation, Letby says she cannot recall.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 5 - cross-examination continues

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Blondiexoxo]

All this time I've been unwilling to fully believe that LL has perpetrated these crimes but now the penny dropped and I see exactly what's being dealt with here.

It's terrifying and chilling to know someone who has zero empathy and if guilty, and if this theory is true, everyone who has known her over time will have noticed this.

JMO MOO

I agree, it’s easy to fake empathy in messages but in person it’s very different. You can stand there and say ‘I’m so upset’ but without the appropriate corresponding facial expressions furrowed brow, quivering lip, tone of voice etc it would come across as insincere.

I don’t think we’ve heard much about her being upset at work when these incidents happened? Except for one baby’s parents saying she was almost as upset as them. This is quite telling IMO, if she lacked empathy then it’s possible she’d attempt to show it by copying/mirroring the behaviour of others around her who genuinely felt these emotions. If guilty, IMO she mirrored the parents demeanor but didn’t consider how odd it would seem for a nurse to be almost as upset as the parents of the baby who’d died.

The lack of empathy IMO is something she’s shown on the stand by not crying over the incidents yet managing to shed tears for herself when discussing how it has affected her.

All MOO

 

[Tortoise]

Judith Moritz

@JudithMoritz
·
5m

Nick Johnson KC suggests to Lucy Letby that she has tried to create the impression that baby K was a child who habitually displaced her own breathing tube.

Judith Moritz

@JudithMoritz
·
3m

Lucy Letby: "No. But the tube did come out more than once" Nick Johnson KC: "Oh it did, because on three occasions we suggest, you displaced it because you were trying to kill her". Lucy Letby: "No"

 

[WaxLyrical]

We did also however hear from Christopher Booth who seemed to say there was no question that Letby was as devastated as everyone else about the deaths.