UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #24

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What a ridiculous question to ask, do you know the difference between life and death. And all this did you kill them, no, did you enjoy it, what is the purpose of this kind of questioning? Is someone expected to say no I didn’t kill them but yes I enjoyed it?
It really annoys me. Stupid questions, such as this and “ do you accept you were born” just serve to diminish NJ in my opinion. He is a highly skilled KC and he has plenty of proper, legitimate questions which he can and should be asking.

These are the kind of silly things you would expect to hear from a lawyer on a legal drama being shown on Channel 5 on a weekday afternoon.

I’m not suggesting for one minute that he should go easy on her. Challenge her as much as you like, point out inconsistencies, but don’t resort to this style of questioning.
 
Trying to make her break down, possibly. She seems to be standing up to it so far...

But she's no use to anyone if she breaks down. And even if she does break down, all it means is that she breaks down. It doesn't imply either guilt or innocence.

If she breaks down, then she likely gets a break, then the cross exam is delayed. How is that useful or helpful in a trial that's well behind schedule?

I just know if I was on that jury, his unnecessary melodrama would really irritate me. It reeks of playing to an audience.
 
But she's no use to anyone if she breaks down. And even if she does break down, all it means is that she breaks down. It doesn't imply either guilt or innocence.

If she breaks down, then she likely gets a break, then the cross exam is delayed. How is that useful or helpful in a trial that's well behind schedule?

I just know if I was on that jury, his melodrama would really irritate me.
I'm not saying it's a good thing!
 
quoting my own post to add link as it was Dr Gibbs who mentioned junior doctors hence my “Black Wednesday” comments.

Later Dr John Gibbs, the lead paediatrician on the unit at the time, told the court blood tests carried out on Baby L confirmed he had been 'given insulin that he should not have received'.

He added: 'I was not thinking at the time that someone might have administered insulin. The results showed that, but unfortunately the junior doctors who read them didn't realise the significance'.


A quick point - a junior doctor is anyone below consultant.
 
2:41pm

The trial has had a short break, and will be resuming shortly with Mr Johnson cross-examining Letby in the case of Child J.

2:51pm

Copies of Letby's defence statement, edited to the relevant parts in the case by agreement, are handed out to members of the jury.
Mr Johnson moves to the case of Child J, a baby girl born on October 31, 2015.
Letby, in her defence statement, said she had never seen a baby with stomas before at the Countess, and other doctors were "equally unsure about stomas", and the parents were "more proficient" than the Countess staff at dealing with stomas.
A handover sheet was taken to Letby's home, the defence statement adds, unintentionally.

2:52pm

The night shift rota for November 26-27 is put up. Two band 4 unit nurses are named in the rota.
Child J was in room 4. The designated nurse was Nicola Dennison, a band 4 nurse also looking after one other baby in room 4.
Letby was the designated nurse for two babies in room 3 that night.
Letby rules out staffing levels as a contributory factor in Child J's collapse, nor medical incompetence, nor staffing mistakes. She says the unit was busy at the time, but was not a contributory factor. She adds she does not know how Child J collapsed.

2:54pm

Letby accepts the evidence from Child J's mother that Child J was well and "about to go home in a day or two".

3:06pm

Letby adds there was an issue with Child J's stoma care, as it had been discussed among the nurses that they had little experience. She adds she does not "want to name names" on any specific nurses' lack of experience.
Mr Johnson refers to Nicola Dennison's previous experience with stomas, which she said in evidence she had experience of it.
Letby says over the years, she did not recall any other babies with stomas.
Mr Johnson says band 4 nurses, as said by Letby in evidence on May 16, should not be involved in stoma bag care, as they would be unfamiliar with the procedure. Letby said: "The unit was very busy and we had to use staff where we could."
Letby says she was not referring to Nicola Dennison specifically, but the nursing situation overall.
She says there was not an issue over staffing levels at the time of Child J's collapse.
Asked to explain a text message she had sent to a colleague Letby tells the court: "Sometimes I felt nurses would take on roles which I didn't think they were trained enough in".
The next message adds: "It's shocking really that they are willing to take the responsibility for things that they have no training or experience etc on. Don't think they appreciate the potential difficulties X"
Letby agrees she believed it was "potentially dangerous".
Mr Johnson says the impression of the court was that band 4 nurses were not qualified in stoma care, and the hospital was 'cutting conrers' by assigning such nurses to those tasks. Letby agrees.
The court is shown a document about the duties for special care babies [such as Child J], which includes stoma care.
LL: "You need to appreciate the context that the unit was not familiar with stomas."
NJ: "This nurse was familiar with stomas, wasn't she?"
LL: "In her opinion, yes."
Mr Johnson says Letby was deliberately creating the impression to the jury that the care for Child J was deficient.
LL: "I do think that. I don't think she had a high standard of care.
"I don't think anyone was overly confident in saying 'I know what to do with a stoma'. We were led by the parents..."
Mr Johnson asks why Nicola Dennison was not challenged about this.
LL: "I can't answer that."

3:10pm

Letby denies not being happy in nursery room 3, or being happier in nursery room 1.
Letby accepts the evidence of Nicola Dennison that babies in room 4 should have the light off overnight, as they are due to go home.

3:11pm

Mr Johnson says two pairs of events for child J happened; one pair in room 4, one pair in room 2.
The room 4 incidents happened at 3am and 4.57am, and the room 2 incidents happened either side of 7am. Letby accepts this was the case.

3:15pm

The court is shown a night shift staffing rota at the end of the night, in which Child J was in room 2.
Letby is asked if she has any memory of the earlier pair of incidents. She says she does not have a recollection.
She says from her memory, Child J had a seizure and was moved to room 2. She says she could be mistaken in her memory.

3:21pm

The court is shown an apnoea/brady/fit chart for Child J on November 27, recording events for Child J at 4.40am and 5.03am, recorded by nurse Nicola Dennison, in nursery 4.
The desaturations are recorded by Dr Kaliyilil Verghese.
Letby recalled when she was called in to room 4, Child J was 'fitting', not desaturating.
Letby accepts that by 6.28am, Child J had been moved to room 2, as a text message written by her to a colleague had said that was the case.

 
3:30pm

Letby says she cannot recall where she was when she sent the 6.28am message, whether she was in room 2 or not.
The message added: 'only 5 staff!'
Mr Johnson: "So it was all hands to the pump then?" as twins had been admitted to room 1 as an emergency.
LL: "Yes."
Mr Johnson says all staff would have been concentrated in room 1.
LL "Not all, but most, yes."
NJ: "You were not invovled in that, were you?"
LL: "Not from memory, no."
Mr Johnson says the message sent at 6.31am would have meant Letby would not have been in room 1. Letby agrees.
Letby says Mary Griffiths would not have been in room 1 as she was not an intensive treatment unit-trained nurse. She denies she would have been the last nurse for room 2.
Letby accepts, from looking at the neonatal schedule, she would have been in room 2 when the emergency twins were admitted to room 1.
NJ: "There would have been a lot of distractions...wouldn't there?"
LL: "I don't know what you're implying."
NJ: "The medical staff would have their attention focused on the twins, and any help that could be spared would have gone on the twins.
NJ: "Do you accept that a lot of help was needed?"
LL: "It would be normal practice to get in the consultant when we only had the registrar, yes."
Dr John Gibbs arrives at 6.34am, earlier than normal for his shift, to assist.

3:31pm

The last message Letby sent to her colleague was 6.49am. The colleague sent three messages which were not replied to in the following minutes.
NJ: "That's because you were in nursery room 2, sabotaging [Child I], weren't you?"
LL: "No, I wasn't."

3:35pm

Letby accepts that, on the neonatal schedule, she is not recorded doing anything in the half hour prior to Child J's collapse at 6.56am.
Mr Johnson refers to Dr John Gibbs's notes of 'sudden desats (to unrecordable levels) at 6.56 and at 7.24 and bradycardia. Both associated with clenching of hands, stiff limbs, and on second occasion, eyes deviated to left.'
NJ: "This was your doing?"
LL: "No, it wasn't."
Letby accepts it was an emergency situation and Dr Gibbs had to be called away from room 1 to Child J in room 2.

3:42pm

NJ: "You took your opportunity, when all the resources at the NNU were concentrated on the twins who had been admitted as an emergency."
LL: "No."
Letby accepts evidence had been heard saying there was no known cause for Child J's deterioration.
Letby had care of Child J the following night, which the court is shown, from Letby's notes for that night, 'nothing happened'.

3:46pm

Mr Johnson moves on to the case of Child K, born on February 17, 2016.
Letby said, in her defence statement, she did not recall the events of February 17, and did not recall saying to Dr Ravi Jayaram that Child K had just started deteriorating.
She said she had done nothing to interfere with Child K's tube or the alarm.
She added the Countess neonatal unit was not capable, given its staffing levels, of looking after a baby of Child K's gestational age.
Letby tells the court she has no memory of such a conversation with Dr Jayaram. She says it is "difficult" to dispute Dr Jayaram's recollection of the event as she had no memory of it.
She denies she has changed her version of events since starting to give evidence.

3:50pm

Letby is asked if she understands the reason why Child K was born at the Countess.
LL: "Yes."
Mr Johnson tells the court it was deemed 'too risky' to transfer Child K and her mother to another hospital at that stage, and that was why Child K was born at the Countess.
LL: "I don't know why more effort was not made to find a bed for her [elsewhere]."
NJ: "You have persistently given the impression that the Countess has taken on babies it [is not able to look after and that is why they collapse]."
LL: "Yes."
NJ: "Is that the reason you said to the jury you didn't understand why [Child K] was born at the Countess?"
LL: "I don't understand why she was born at the Countess."
NJ: "Is it to bolster your defence?"
LL: "No."
LL: "I understand why she was born there but I don't necessarily agree [with the decision to have her born there]."

3:53pm

Letby says she does not recall the latter two desaturations for Child K, and does not accept Dr Jayaram's evidence in the first desaturation.
Mr Johnson says he will deal with these in a different order than chronologically; he will cross-examine on the second desaturation first.

3:54pm

Letby says she does not know what happened to Child K, so does not cite staffing levels as a contributory factor in Child K's desaturations.
She says she feels "potentially" the ET Tubes were not secured for Child K.

4:03pm

The second desaturation occurred at 6.10-6.15am on February 17, 2016.
The court hears a note on Child K's birth and assessment was typed up by Letby on a computer from 6.04am-6.10am. The note would have been taken from paper charts taken by the cotside.
NJ: "You were at [Child K's] cotside a minute or two before she desaturated, didn't you?"
Letby says she would have got the notes from the cotside "at some point" prior to her typing them up.

 
It really annoys me. Stupid questions, such as this and “ do you accept you were born” just serve to diminish NJ in my opinion. He is a highly skilled KC and he has plenty of proper, legitimate questions which he can and should be asking.
I thought it was a brilliant way of showing how she is disputing something and at the same time saying she has no memory of the time in question. What other example could he give of something she wouldn't remember but doesn't dispute?

"Mr Johnson asks how, if she has no memory, she can dispute the fact she was in the nursery.
"I have not agreed that I was definitely in the nursery," she said.
Mr Johnson says she is "ignoring the question" because she cannot answer the question.
"Do you remember being born?" Mr Johnson asks.
"No," Letby says.
"Do you dispute you were born?"
After a pause, Letby replies: "No."

Lucy Letby trial live: Nurse accused of murdering seven babies to continue giving evidence
 
What a ridiculous question to ask, do you know the difference between life and death. And all this did you kill them, no, did you enjoy it, what is the purpose of this kind of questioning? Is someone expected to say no I didn’t kill them but yes I enjoyed it?
Isn't it a potentially dangerous question to ask - "do you know the difference between life and death"?

What if she'd said "no"? Good set up for a not guilty by reason of insanity defence, perhaps?
 
I just know if I was on that jury, his unnecessary melodrama would really irritate me. It reeks of playing to an audience.

And that's without TV cameras present!

I sincerely hope that that never comes to pass in this country.
 
Am I right in thinking that mr Johnson is actually giving the times in which the alleged attacks have taken place now?
for instance with baby I, what I don’t get is if it is alleged that she attacked the baby and then that baby died later on in the shift and if it was an AE i would presume that baby would have been declared dead within forty minutes. so what’s the timings on the alleged attack compared to the recorded time of death?
 
From Sky news updates :

Letby's lawyer objects to 'belittling' comments​

"I don't know what happened to [Child K]," says Lucy Letby.
Nick Johnson, the prosecution barrister, asks the same questions he has asked in all cases - if Letby thinks staffing issues, incompetence or individual mistakes contributed to Child K's death.
"I potentially feel the EG tubes were not secured appropriately," she says.
Child J collapsed due to difficulties with her tube at 6.15am on 17 February 2016.
"Just before that desaturation you were with Child J, weren't you," Mr Johnson says.
"I don't recall," says Letby.
Mr Johnson then asks about the admission form Letby filled out. She says she got these from the cot side and took them to the computer.
"I think I know where you are going, we will dance the dance if you want to," Mr Johnson says.
Letby's defense barrister objects to this, saying comments like this are "belittling". The judge agrees and asks Mr Johnson to refrain from such remarks in future.
 
From Sky news updates :

Letby's lawyer objects to 'belittling' comments​

"I don't know what happened to [Child K]," says Lucy Letby.
Nick Johnson, the prosecution barrister, asks the same questions he has asked in all cases - if Letby thinks staffing issues, incompetence or individual mistakes contributed to Child K's death.
"I potentially feel the EG tubes were not secured appropriately," she says.
Child J collapsed due to difficulties with her tube at 6.15am on 17 February 2016.
"Just before that desaturation you were with Child J, weren't you," Mr Johnson says.
"I don't recall," says Letby.
Mr Johnson then asks about the admission form Letby filled out. She says she got these from the cot side and took them to the computer.
"I think I know where you are going, we will dance the dance if you want to," Mr Johnson says.
Letby's defense barrister objects to this, saying comments like this are "belittling". The judge agrees and asks Mr Johnson to refrain from such remarks in future.
Never knew "belittling" was an issue in a trial.
 
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