UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #25

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'In the case of each child, without necessarily having to determine the precise cause or causes of their death and for which no natural or known cause was said to be apparent at the time, you must be sure that the act or acts of the defendant, whatever they were, caused the child's death in that it was more than a minimal cause”.


What does this mean , “and for which no natural or known cause was said to be apparent at the time…?” All the deaths had a natural cause listed on the death certificates, so I don’t understand how this works in terms of what the jury has to decide.

This comes down to causation, the key word being "no natural or known cause". It's a long time since I took my criminal law exams but I've just done a very quick refresher (online google!) and two aspects of causation need to be shown for criminal liability to be established- factual and legal. Factual can be shown by the "but for" test, i.e. but for the defendant's actions the baby wouldn't have died (so no other cause for the death). For legal causation to be proven, it needs to be established the defendant's actions were more than minimal ( plus a few other things - law is never straightforward!). So this is the judge simplifying the law for the jury.

Off topic but just got a flashback to my criminal law exams - we had mad scenarios where someone would be beaten up, then someone else would stab them, then they would be taken to hospital and given the wrong medicine, and finally the cleaner would pull the plug out of their ventilator to plug in the hoover and the person would die. We would have to then go through all the perpetrators and determine what they could be charged with. I found it really interesting!

ETA I see what you mean about the phrasing of "apparent at the time". It does read strangely.
 
‘If you are satisfied so that you are sure in the case of any baby that they were deliberately harmed by the defendant then you are entitled to consider how likely it is that other babies in the case who suffered unexpected collapses did so as a result of some unexplained or natural cause rather than as a consequence of some deliberate harmful act by someone.

'If you conclude that this is unlikely then you could, if you think it right, treat the evidence of that event and any others, if any, which you find were a consequence of a deliberate harmful act, as supporting evidence in the cases of other babies and that the defendant was the person responsible.

'When deciding how far, if at all, the evidence in relation to any of the cases supports the case against the defendant on any other or others, you should take into account how similar or dissimilar, in your opinion, the allegations and the circumstances of and surrounding their collapses are
.’


Taken from daily mail. I think the judge is saying, if the jury find that she is guilty of one charge, then they are able to use their verdict on that charge to consider whether she is guilty of the other similar charges, based on how likely they think it is that another child LL had opportunity to come into contact with, died or collapsed due to some other natural cause. In other words, if they think she did one then they can use that guilt as evidence that she is most likely guilty of others that happened in similar circumstances too. I think that’s what he means anyway, IMO.

Also the judge has said (paraphrased) that they don’t need to be certain of the actual cause of collapse or death, so if they find it wasn’t proven that air embolism for example was the cause in one or more cases, if they are sure that she harmed them in any way then they can find her guilty. If not then they return a not guilty verdict.

So as has been debated before about whether just because there might be evidence she harmed one doesn’t mean she may have harmed them all - that isn’t actually how the jury can decide to see it from what the judge has said IMO anyway.

For example - this is only an example to explain what I think the judge means - if they find for example that LL poisoned baby F with insulin, they could then, when discussing the case of baby L also poisoned with insulin, decide to reasonably assume that there weren’t 2 insulin poisoners at work and therefore she could also have poisoned baby L with insulin. Likewise for baby A and C for example, if they found that she is guilty of murdering baby A, they could then assume that there is a high likelihood she may also be guilty of other babies who collapsed suddenly, showing similar symptoms such as the rash, etc. They don’t have to be convinced of air embolism or even insulin as having been the method of death or collapse to decide this from how I read it IMO.

If they find they cannot be sure she did anything to deliberately harm or cause death then they have to find her not guilty.

All MOO
 
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[/QUOTE]
Quote snipped by me.



I wonder why she kept ruling these out (although not in every case)? To rule those out when she could have said "maybe" seemed harmful to her case, IMO.
Could it be that she is so narcissistic that she cannot forgo the immediate attention and opportunity to sound amicable/ believable?
If the urge and sensation associated with the 'buy in' from others seemed so irresistible, would LL sacrifice own future on account of a little 'release' ?
 
Quote snipped by me.



I wonder why she kept ruling these out (although not in every case)? To rule those out when she could have said "maybe" seemed harmful to her case, IMO.
This also baffled me too. Considering how she was IMO very careful about agreeing to anything NJ suggested to her, and how she gave ‘it may have happened but I don’t recall’ and other vague responses to seemingly trivial questions. It was really poignant IMO that she ruled out those 3 factors as contributing to the events for so many of the babies when sub optimal care, over staffing and medical incompetence were the cornerstones of her defence.

It then confused me even more when she’d rule out these things then go on to make accusations about colleagues not being qualified enough or insinuate that a colleague could have made a mistake shortly after ruling it out. It also made me wonder how she knows for sure that these things weren’t contributing factors when she claimed to remember nothing about the events leading up to the events, aswell as how does she know for sure that some babies didn’t receive a poor standard of care if she wasn’t their designated nurse nor even allocated a child in the same room on the night of the collapse?
IMO more examples of how she discredited herself over and over again.

MOO
 
I have read this part three times and still don't quite get what he is driving at here..
He's saying that if the jury decide that she is guilty of deliberately harming one or more babies, then they can use that as supporting evidence to decide that she is likely to be guilty of harming others too. Particularly if the circumstances of the collapses are similar.
 
He's saying that if the jury decide that she is guilty of deliberately harming one or more babies, then they can use that as supporting evidence to decide that she is likely to be guilty of harming others too. Particularly if the circumstances of the collapses are similar.
Thanks, first time I read it I wasn't sure if he was suggesting that if they found her innocent of one, feel free to apply the same rule
 
I might be silly when I say this but how can the jury possibly be “sure” and without ANY doubt of something which wasn’t witnessed?

They don’t have to be sure beyond any doubt whatsoever, they used to be told ‘beyond reasonable doubt’ but now it seems it’s if they are ‘satisified they are sure’. I think it changed because of some juries being confused between beyond reasonable doubt and beyond ‘all’ doubt.

They don’t have to be 100% absolutely certain, just satisfied they are sure, in this case to the point that it would be very unlikely for her to have been involved in so many unfortunate coincidences.

IMO anyway I might be wrong about that but I think beyond reasonable doubt still stands, the phrase just isn’t used when instructing the jury any more due to some juries being confused about the meaning of reasonable doubt.

So you can say that there is a very very tiny chance that for example in a DNA murder/robbery case that a victim coincidentally had a romantic encounter with a stranger and gave them their vehicle to borrow on the night they were killed. But when looked at along with the other evidence it’s a very slim chance, and extremely unlikely. It could be more than reasonable when all other evidence is considered to believe that a victim was murdered and assaulted by the stranger and had their truck stolen.

All MOO
Sorry if I didn’t explain that well it’s really hard to word!
 
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This comes down to causation, the key word being "no natural or known cause". It's a long time since I took my criminal law exams but I've just done a very quick refresher (online google!) and two aspects of causation need to be shown for criminal liability to be established- factual and legal. Factual can be shown by the "but for" test, i.e. but for the defendant's actions the baby wouldn't have died (so no other cause for the death). For legal causation to be proven, it needs to be established the defendant's actions were more than minimal ( plus a few other things - law is never straightforward!). So this is the judge simplifying the law for the jury.

Off topic but just got a flashback to my criminal law exams - we had mad scenarios where someone would be beaten up, then someone else would stab them, then they would be taken to hospital and given the wrong medicine, and finally the cleaner would pull the plug out of their ventilator to plug in the hoover and the person would die. We would have to then go through all the perpetrators and determine what they could be charged with. I found it really interesting!

ETA I see what you mean about the phrasing of "apparent at the time". It does read strangely.

Great thanks for the puzzle..now I won't sleep :)
 
Say for instance if a child had pneumonia, a heart defect that impeded blood flow and had already had three cardiac arrests and then had a fatal arrest caused by a perpetrator that had done something to that child that had The intention of causing serious harm, was it more the underlying health problems that caused the death or the action of the defendant?

I think it’s worded like that du to crimes involving more than one perpetrator. For example if two men both participate in beating a man and the beating causes death, it’s found that the 99% of the injuries caused were by man 1 but man 2 caused a injury That sped up the death who of the two is responsible For the murder?

not sure on this but seems to make sense.
jmo
The legal rule is, I think, that the unlawful actions of the defendant must be a substantial and operating cause of the death. The example explained to me was that if you beat the daylights out of someone to the point that they end up on life support due to the injuries you caused and then a month later a malicious hospital worker comes along and sabotaged the machines keeping your victim alive causing them to die then you can still be convicted of murder because the injuries you caused were the reason they died, ultimately.

If a patient is already weakened through illness and you cause them more harm which results in their death, even though that might be actually very small harm, then you're still guilty of murder. You take your victim as you find them.
 
Do you think it may also have been a measure to ensure evidence would not be moved?
It's clearly for that reason, I think. Also, remember that she'd written notes expressing a possibility of killing herself. It would be very easy, one would imagine, for a nurse to secrete the means to do that around her home which is something they'd definitely not want to happen.
 
I have read this part three times and still don't quite get what he is driving at here..

No idea either but when the final words of the confusing sentence was 'that the defendant is responsible' I'm suspecting he's strongly guiding them to find LL guilty and all his statements seem to lean that way IMO
 
No idea either but when the final words of the confusing sentence was 'that the defendant is responsible' I'm suspecting he's strongly guiding them to find LL guilty and all his statements seem to lean that way IMO
I thought his guidance was quite brief and I'm not sure if he will 'guide again' after the summing up. It would make more sense to guide afterwards imo but perhaps that's not how it works.
 
No idea either but when the final words of the confusing sentence was 'that the defendant is responsible' I'm suspecting he's strongly guiding them to find LL guilty and all his statements seem to lean that way IMO
The judge isn’t allowed to do that and wouldn’t do so IMO.

If you read on he then goes on to explain what the defence’s case is, he has to be impartial and fair but to find her guilty requires much more consideration and evidence IMO and therefore requires more explaining and instruction as they are literally deciding whether LL goes to prison for likely the rest of her life if convicted or walks free. To find her not guilty they only have to decide that the prosecution didn’t prove their case, or that they cannot be ‘satisified they are sure’. If they decide there isn’t enough evidence then it’s not guilty, the instruction is mainly required to explain to them how they should use the evidence and what they can and cannot consider as evidence. I imagine some of his instructions haven’t been reported too IMO
MOO
 
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Is anyone aware that Lucy Letby's Chester home backs onto a graveyard and Chester crematorium ?
I thought his guidance was quite brief and I'm not sure if he will 'guide again' after the summing up. It would make more sense to guide afterwards imo but perhaps that's not how it works.
I didn’t realise that guidance could be given to the jury before the closing arguments by both counsel. Is this unusual does anyone know? @Tortoise ?
 
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