UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #25

[WaxLyrical]

Because that is commonly where you will find dead people ?
I wondered if she chose to buy that house because of the location.

There is also a baby memorial park situated there.

Off topic but the first house I lived in after uni was next door to a massive graveyard, which I thought was going to be creepy, but it turned out to be the most peaceful place I ever lived!

 

[Sweeper2000]

Off topic but the first house I lived in after uni was next door to a massive graveyard, which I thought was going to be creepy, but it turned out to be the most peaceful place I ever lived!

yeh can’t see how a graveyard would be full of life tbh or much noise except the moaning at the witches hour.

 

[CS2C]

Right, so Letby was arrested for the first time on July 3rd 2018 and it was at that point she wasn't allowed to return to her home and had to stay with her parents (according to the BBC)

So does this mean that the notes etc were all found during her first arrest ?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-65431833/page/3

 

[WaxLyrical]

Right, so Letby was arrested for the first time on July 3rd 2018 and it was at that point she wasn't allowed to return to her home and had to stay with her parents (according to the BBC)

So does this mean that the notes etc were all found during her first arrest ?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-65431833/page/3

How can a person can be arrested, released without charge, and then be told they’re “not allowed” to live in their own home?

 

[CS2C]

How can a person can be arrested, released without charge, and then be told they’re “not allowed” to live in their own home?

I think it was for her own safety as her name and address was put out there in the media on July 6th.

 

[Tortoise]

How can a person can be arrested, released without charge, and then be told they’re “not allowed” to live in their own home?

It sounds very similar to her claim that she wasn't allowed to speak to more than three people on the unit, to me. It was probably advice, intended for a while.

 

[Dotta]

Yes and the baby memorial garden at Blacon cemetery is directly behind the house she had

Is it another coincidence??

 

[DianaWW]

Not sure if this has already been posted - apologies if so- but the daily mail write up has included the questions the judge has set for the jury to decide each charge.

Judge tells Lucy Letby trial to approach case in a 'fair and calm way'

Letby, 33, is accused of murdering seven babies and trying to murder 10 others during the course of her work on the neonatal unit at the Countess of Chester Hospital.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Tortoise]

Not sure if this has already been posted - apologies if so- but the daily mail write up has included the questions the judge has set for the jury to decide each charge.

Judge tells Lucy Letby trial to approach case in a 'fair and calm way'

Letby, 33, is accused of murdering seven babies and trying to murder 10 others during the course of her work on the neonatal unit at the Countess of Chester Hospital.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Just copying them here

THE QUESTIONS THE JURY MUST ANSWER TO CONVICT OR ACQUIT LUCY LETBY​

Jurors in the trial of Lucy Letby must ask themselves these questions when considering the allegations she murdered seven babies and attempted to murder 10 others.

On each of the seven counts of murder:

Q1) Are we sure that the defendant did some harmful act or acts to the child who died?

If yes, go to Q2. If no, the verdict on that count should be 'not guilty'.

Q2) Are we sure that the act or acts of the defendant was a substantial cause of the death of that child in that it was more than a minimal cause?

If yes, go to Q3. If no, the verdict on that count should be 'not guilty'.

Q3) Are we sure that when she did the act or acts that caused the death of the child she intended to kill or cause some really serious harm to that child?

If yes, the verdict on that count should be 'guilty'. If no, the verdict on that count should be 'not guilty'.

On each of the 15 counts of attempted murder:

Q1) Are we sure that the defendant intended to kill the child?

If yes, go to Q2 If no, the verdict on that count should be 'not guilty'.

Q2) Are we sure that the defendant did an act or acts that was/were more than merely preparatory to killing the child?

If yes, the verdict on that count should be 'guilty'. If no, the verdict on that count should be 'not guilty'

Judge tells Lucy Letby trial to approach case in a 'fair and calm way'

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

'In the case of each child, without necessarily having to determine the precise cause or causes of their death and for which no natural or known cause was said to be apparent at the time, you must be sure that the act or acts of the defendant, whatever they were, caused the child's death in that it was more than a minimal cause”.


What does this mean , “and for which no natural or known cause was said to be apparent at the time…?” All the deaths had a natural cause listed on the death certificates, so I don’t understand how this works in terms of what the jury has to decide.

 

[JosieJo]

Does anyone remember? ..if not ill research in the morning and post..how many of the attempted murder cases if any was there more than one attempt?

 

[Tortoise]

'In the case of each child, without necessarily having to determine the precise cause or causes of their death and for which no natural or known cause was said to be apparent at the time, you must be sure that the act or acts of the defendant, whatever they were, caused the child's death in that it was more than a minimal cause”.


What does this mean , “and for which no natural or known cause was said to be apparent at the time…?” All the deaths had a natural cause listed on the death certificates, so I don’t understand how this works in terms of what the jury has to decide.

I'm guessing not apparent to the medical staff, at the time of death. Post-mortems were later.

 

[Tortoise]

Does anyone remember? ..if not ill research in the morning and post..how many of the attempted murder cases if any was there more than one attempt?

G, H, N (those are the cases with multiple charges)

For some reason there are other cases where she is said to have attacked a child multiple times in one shift but where she is only charged once.

I don't know if there has to be perhaps a clear recovery between the events to make separate charges?

 

[Sweeper2000]

'In the case of each child, without necessarily having to determine the precise cause or causes of their death and for which no natural or known cause was said to be apparent at the time, you must be sure that the act or acts of the defendant, whatever they were, caused the child's death in that it was more than a minimal cause”.


What does this mean , “and for which no natural or known cause was said to be apparent at the time…?” All the deaths had a natural cause listed on the death certificates, so I don’t understand how this works in terms of what the jury has to decide.

Say for instance if a child had pneumonia, a heart defect that impeded blood flow and had already had three cardiac arrests and then had a fatal arrest caused by a perpetrator that had done something to that child that had The intention of causing serious harm, was it more the underlying health problems that caused the death or the action of the defendant?

I think it’s worded like that du to crimes involving more than one perpetrator. For example if two men both participate in beating a man and the beating causes death, it’s found that the 99% of the injuries caused were by man 1 but man 2 caused a injury That sped up the death who of the two is responsible For the murder?

not sure on this but seems to make sense.
jmo

 

[Marantz4250b]

How can a person can be arrested, released without charge, and then be told they’re “not allowed” to live in their own home?

Because police bail can have conditions to it - such as not entering a certain area. You are still technically under arrest (I think) but can't be held in custody beyond 72 hours. It's done as a balancing act so that the police can still investigate but it would be unjust to detain the person, essentially.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Because police bail can have conditions to it - such as not entering a certain area. You are still technically under arrest (I think) but can't be held in custody beyond 72 hours. It's done as a balancing act so that the police can still investigate but it would be unjust to detain the person, essentially.

Do you think it may also have been a measure to ensure evidence would not be moved?

 

[JosieJo]

G, H, N (those are the cases with multiple charges)

For some reason there are other cases where she is said to have attacked a child multiple times in one shift but where she is only charged once.

I don't know if there has to be perhaps a clear recovery between the events to make separate charges?

Thanks as always

 

[Dcflag]

Just copying them here

THE QUESTIONS THE JURY MUST ANSWER TO CONVICT OR ACQUIT LUCY LETBY​

Jurors in the trial of Lucy Letby must ask themselves these questions when considering the allegations she murdered seven babies and attempted to murder 10 others.

On each of the seven counts of murder:

Q1) Are we sure that the defendant did some harmful act or acts to the child who died?

If yes, go to Q2. If no, the verdict on that count should be 'not guilty'.

Q2) Are we sure that the act or acts of the defendant was a substantial cause of the death of that child in that it was more than a minimal cause?

If yes, go to Q3. If no, the verdict on that count should be 'not guilty'.

Q3) Are we sure that when she did the act or acts that caused the death of the child she intended to kill or cause some really serious harm to that child?

If yes, the verdict on that count should be 'guilty'. If no, the verdict on that count should be 'not guilty'.

On each of the 15 counts of attempted murder:

Q1) Are we sure that the defendant intended to kill the child?

If yes, go to Q2 If no, the verdict on that count should be 'not guilty'.

Q2) Are we sure that the defendant did an act or acts that was/were more than merely preparatory to killing the child?

If yes, the verdict on that count should be 'guilty'. If no, the verdict on that count should be 'not guilty'

Judge tells Lucy Letby trial to approach case in a 'fair and calm way'

I feel like this solidifies for me that there won’t be a really long deliberation time.

I have however slept on the defence case and I actually think BM has done.. okay. It’s not out side the realms of possibility that he did purposely put her on the stand because, it’s very clear there isn’t much else in terms of a defence witness he could call. The only person who can deny the charges or give a first witness account is LL and that’s it. What she then does with it, is on her. He can prep her but ultimately it’s her ball, her court.

When you consider the idea that he purposely put her on the stand and consider her a defence witness, it makes his case seem a little better than “just the plumber “

 

[Tortoise]

Because police bail can have conditions to it - such as not entering a certain area. You are still technically under arrest (I think) but can't be held in custody beyond 72 hours. It's done as a balancing act so that the police can still investigate but it would be unjust to detain the person, essentially.

Ah I've just seen they were still searching her home when she was released on bail. Makes sense.

 

[Dotta]

I feel like this solidifies for me that there won’t be a really long deliberation time.

I have however slept on the defence case and I actually think BM has done.. okay. It’s not out side the realms of possibility that he did purposely put her on the stand because, it’s very clear there isn’t much else in terms of a defence witness he could call. The only person who can deny the charges or give a first witness account is LL and that’s it. What she then does with it, is on her. He can prep her but ultimately it’s her ball, her court.

When you consider the idea that he purposely put her on the stand and consider her a defence witness, it makes his case seem a little better than “just the plumber “

Re the Defence

Even Solomon cannot pour water from an empty jug.

JMO