UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #25

[Blondiexoxo]

Did she, though? This is really my point - this has been asserted, by the CS among others, but no report in the MSM that I'm aware of has actually quoted her as having said it, specifically. If she did then why was in not published in quotation marks?

People are saying it's a trivial point but if it's being mentioned by NJ in order to paint her as a liar then the issue of what she actually said is actually extremely relevant.

12:21pm

A 'social timeline' is shown to the court, detailing meetings with the doctor in Harford, Cheshire Oaks (twice) and London between May-June 2017.
LL: I'm near the park next to where you are, let me know where you are finishing up and I'll see you outside
Doctor: Ok will do See you soon
LL:
Letby denies the doctor was her boyfriend.
Letby agrees she had a "very very active social life".
Letby says a future date on the Facebook diary, for September 2017, was listed as a trip to London, but they had to cancel as the doctor had a medical appointment.
She denies again he was her boyfriend.
NJ: "You have deliberately misled the jury about this background."
LL: "No."
NJ: "You have also deliberately misled them about the circumstances of your arrest, haven't you?"
LL: "No."
Letby says the police knocked on her door at 6am when they arrested her. She says she thought she had a nightie and a tracksuit and trainers.
Mr Johnson says Letby was taken away in a blue Lee Cooper leisure suit. Letby says she is not sure. Mr Johnson says video footage can be played of her arrest. Letby agrees she was taken away in that leisure suit.
For the 2019 arrest, Letby agrees she was not taken away in her pyjamas.
NJ: "Why did you lie to the jury about this?"
LL: "I don't know."
Letby says it was the first arrest when she was taken in her pyjamas.
NJ: "Do you want to watch the video?" Letby does not respond.
NJ: "You are a very calculating woman, aren't you"
LL: "No."
NJ: "You tell lies deliberately."
NJ: "And the reason you tell lies is to get sympathy and attention from people."
Mr Johnson says Letby was killing children to get attention.
LL: "I didn't kill the children."
NJ: "You're getting quite a lot of attention now, aren't you?"

From the Chester Standard updates from Friday -
BBM - she first says she had a nightie tracksuit and trainers, then admits she was not taken away in her pyjamas. Then she says it was the first arrest she was taken away in her pyjamas, NJ asks if she would like to see the video, LL does not respond.

So I’m just this brief back and forth we have LL admitting to have lied, then attempting IMO to backtrack yet again and say it was the first arrest she was taken away in her pyjamas. NJ offers to show the video of this and she refuses to answer.

I think LL is saying that for one arrest she was taken from the house wearing a tracksuit over a nightie. But for her first arrest she claims to have been taken from her home wearing just pyjamas. If this were true IMO she would have wanted the video to be shown to the jury, why refuse to respond when NJ offers to show the video if she is telling the truth about what she was wearing when taken from her home during her first arrest? NJ is accusing her of misleading the jury, if she knew she was telling the truth about this wouldn’t she have said ‘play the video of my first arrest’?
IMO LL knew the video would contradict with her claim of wearing pyjamas.

I will look back for the quote from her first day of direct examination when BM was questioning her, and she is talking about being taken from her home whilst wearing pyjamas.

MOO

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 9 - cross-examination continues

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Blondiexoxo]

From the Chester Standard May 2nd -

10:49am

Mr Myers asks Letby about her being arrested for the first time.
Letby says this was nothing like she had ever experienced before.
Wiping away tears, Letby says there was a knocking on the door at 6am from police, at her Westbourne Road, Chester home.
At the time, her father was with her. They had "no idea at all" the police were coming that day.
"They told me I was being arrested for multiple counts of murder, they put me into handcuffs and took me away" in her pyjamas.
After three days of police interviews, Letby was released on bail. She says she was not allowed to return to her Chester home, and went to live with her parents in Hereford.
Becoming tearful, she says the second arrest in 2019 was a "mirror image" of the first arrest.
"It was just the most...scariest thing I have ever been through."
"It's just traumatised me."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, May 2 - defence begins

 

[Cluedoneit]

At this point, I’m going to be really interested in the judges summing up of this case. He could, if he chose, remind the jury that Letby has lied on numerous occasions , so they can, if they choose, disregard anything she said on the stand that is contradicted by other evidence. At the moment, defence witnesses that appear next week will be crucial in a way they weren’t before Letby chose to take the stand.
all imo.

 

[Blondiexoxo]

In fairness, if I had a lee cooper tracksuit it refer to it as pyjamas. All my loungewear sets I call pyjamas, basically because they are for slobbing around the house and not something I’d typically go outdoors wearing.

Links posted above, she can clearly differentiate between the lee cooper tracksuit, her nightie and pyjamas IMO. She refers to all 3 when describing her arrests. For one arrest she says she was taken away in a nightie wearing the lee cooper leisure suit over the top. For her first arrest she claims to have been ‘taken away in her pyjamas’ she said this on 2/5 and again on Friday 9/6.

If she considered her lee cooper suit as pyjamas then NJ IMO have her opportunity to say that on Friday. Instead she agrees to wearing the lee cooper tracksuit over a nightie, admits to lying, then tries to say it was the first arrest she was wearing pyjamas when taken away. NJ offers to show her the video and she is silent refusing to answer him.

MOO

 

[Becky53]

Mr Myers says the prosecution had asserted Lucy Letby had 'fallen out' with Melanie Taylor. Letby denies this was the case at any point.

Text messages are shown between Melanie Taylor and Lucy Letby. The exchange is on June 9, 2015, following the death of Child A, and how hard it was going in to back into the unit following such an event.

Letby messaged: "I hope you are ok, you were brilliant" and signs off the conversation "Great see you then xx" to which Melanie Taylor replied "Xx". Letby denies she fell out with Melanie Taylor.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 9 - cross-examination continues

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Does anyone else think this message kind of proves nothing as to a all being OK between LL and Mel Taylor seeing as it was sent in 2015 and a falling out could of occurred anytime after? JMO but pleasantries sent between people prove nothing either way.

There was another message that showed LL being bitchy about another colleague with conjunctivitis and then being two-faced and texting the colleague with conjunctivitis and asking her if she was ok.

10:56am

Cheshire Police intelligency analyst Kate Tyndall is now talking the court through the sequence of events for Child K.
They begin with text messages recovered from Letby's phone.
Letby messages a colleague about the unit being a "hive of activity" on February 16 in preparation for a visit from "the big bods", and there is a discussion on the possible of delivery of Child K.
Letby mentions one colleague had suspected conjuctivits, but had still come into work, and adds "Hope I haven't caught anything".
Said colleague had also not "done anything but moan" that day, Letby says.
Letby messages the ill colleague saying she hopes that colleague is felling better soon. The colleague responds she was felling better after a day of bed rest, and thanks Letby for her message.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Monday, February 27

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

JMO

 

[Becky53]

At the time, her father was with her. They had "no idea at all" the police were coming that day.

This makes me LOL every time I see it - duh that’s the whole point.

JMO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Yes, and Myers was snoozing through it all and forgot to object to Johnson accusing her of lying and getting Letby to agree she had lied.

Well to be fair it was me who called into question this whole PJ situation as I wasn't sure. After lots of clarification from posters, I'm persuaded that indeed LL seems to repeatedly bend the truth in the direction she can be seen the biggest victim. That's a pattern the prosecution have drawn out for us all to see.

At the same time, I do feel that if she considered her Lee Cooper tracksuit bed wear and not 'going outside' clothes, it's a less robust point. I guess this is where we all have our own personal opinions.

Also a person who is shocked and aggrieved at being nicked at 06:00 could use a bit of hyperbole and flowery description of the trauma of it all but one would imagine, 1) not on record in a court of law; 2) she has bigger fish to fry than worrying about her perfectly adequate clothing which covered her from head to toe and she even had trainers on.

I'm also convinced that the police, knowing this case would blow up, have been immaculately conducted and they probably do have protocol about allowing people to put on warm enough and dignified enough clothes and footwear if reasonable to do so, which it was.

 

[Dotta]

There was another message that showed LL being bitchy about another colleague with conjunctivitis and then being two-faced and texting the colleague with conjunctivitis and asking her if she was ok.

10:56am

Cheshire Police intelligency analyst Kate Tyndall is now talking the court through the sequence of events for Child K.
They begin with text messages recovered from Letby's phone.
Letby messages a colleague about the unit being a "hive of activity" on February 16 in preparation for a visit from "the big bods", and there is a discussion on the possible of delivery of Child K.
Letby mentions one colleague had suspected conjuctivits, but had still come into work, and adds "Hope I haven't caught anything".
Said colleague had also not "done anything but moan" that day, Letby says.
Letby messages the ill colleague saying she hopes that colleague is felling better soon. The colleague responds she was felling better after a day of bed rest, and thanks Letby for her message.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Monday, February 27

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

JMO

Re conjuctivitis

If the condition is viral then a person should stay isolated not to infect others - especially tiny babies.

If it is allergic, then no need to isolate but still it is hard to concentrate on work with tearing, itchy, swollen eyes.

So I can somehow understand LL about being uneasy.
We cannot come to work when ill in my place in case of infecting pupils and other staff.

JMO

 

[MachinaCollecta]

Or, she said "no" because he said that he could contradict her by showing a video. A video he said would be of her being led away which is NOT a video of her arrest.

I find this logic baffling, with all due respect. Isn’t her being led away PART of the arrest? I’ll ask a police friend of mine to define it better and report back, but I don’t believe an arrest is purely the act of saying “you’re under arrest” and that’s it. And even if she had then been led away and you’re taking that as a separate event, she still claims she was in her pyjamas and NJ argued she wasn’t.

 

[Tortoise]

Mr Myers says the prosecution had asserted Lucy Letby had 'fallen out' with Melanie Taylor. Letby denies this was the case at any point.

Text messages are shown between Melanie Taylor and Lucy Letby. The exchange is on June 9, 2015, following the death of Child A, and how hard it was going in to back into the unit following such an event.

Letby messaged: "I hope you are ok, you were brilliant" and signs off the conversation "Great see you then xx" to which Melanie Taylor replied "Xx". Letby denies she fell out with Melanie Taylor.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 9 - cross-examination continues

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Does anyone else think this message kind of proves nothing as to a all being OK between LL and Mel Taylor seeing as it was sent in 2015 and a falling out could of occurred anytime after? JMO but pleasantries sent between people prove nothing either way.

There was another message that showed LL being bitchy about another colleague with conjunctivitis and then being two-faced and texting the colleague with conjunctivitis and asking her if she was ok.

10:56am

Cheshire Police intelligency analyst Kate Tyndall is now talking the court through the sequence of events for Child K.
They begin with text messages recovered from Letby's phone.
Letby messages a colleague about the unit being a "hive of activity" on February 16 in preparation for a visit from "the big bods", and there is a discussion on the possible of delivery of Child K.
Letby mentions one colleague had suspected conjuctivits, but had still come into work, and adds "Hope I haven't caught anything".
Said colleague had also not "done anything but moan" that day, Letby says.
Letby messages the ill colleague saying she hopes that colleague is felling better soon. The colleague responds she was felling better after a day of bed rest, and thanks Letby for her message.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Monday, February 27

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

JMO

Some other mentions of Mel during cross-exam -

LL: "Unfortunately I've seen my fair share at the women's but you are supported differently & here it's like people want to tell you how to think/Feel. Anyway. Onwards & upwards. Just shame i'm on with Mel & [colleague].Sophie in 1 so haven't got her to talk to either."

"Anyway, forget it. I can only talk about it properly with those who knew him and Mel not interested so I'll overcome it myself. You get some sleep X"

Mr Johnson says if this was the Melanie Taylor who Letby had said "potentially" caused a child's death. Letby: "Potentially, yes."
JJK: "That's a bit mean isn't it. Don't have to know him to understand we've all been there. Yep off to bed now x"

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, May 18 - prosecution cross-examines Letby

A temperature of 36.1C is recorded for Child I at 11am, and the 'hot cot' temperature was turned up.
Letby denies by this time she had "fallen out" with medical colleagues Ashleigh Hudson, Melanie Taylor and one other.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, May 25 - cross-examination continues

Messages are sent by Letby at 8.26pm [Ffs Mel asking me how to make up 12.5%],

8.29pm: 'No I've passed her folder but now asking if can run via cannula- she needs to look herself!'
Letby says she was "not happy" with Mel.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 7 - cross-examination continues

Nurse Melanie Taylor, at about 1pm, entered room 2 and said 'he doesn’t look as well now as he did earlier. Do you think we should move him back to [room] 1 to be safe?'
Letby declined. She said she doesn't remember being very dismissive.
Letby says "That's Mel's opinion" to the evidence that Melanie Taylor had told the jury she felt Letby was 'undermining her authority'.
She adds that Melanie Taylor had the right to override that and 'take Child O off her'.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 8 - cross-examination continues

 

[esther43]

Tbh, that's bordering on dishonesty on the part of NJ. She said "I think...". To then manipulate the following conversation to get her to admit she lied is not how a senior barrister (or any lawyer) should be behaving, imo. She clearly didn't lie.

Taking into account that the reporting my not be accurate, obviously.

I think that's exactly his job isn't it? To prove she's a liar?

 

[marynnu]

Re conjuctivitis

If the condition is viral then a person should stay isolated not to infect others - especially tiny babies.

If it is allergic, then no need to isolate but still it is hard to concentrate on work with tearing, itchy, swollen eyes.

So I can somehow understand LL about being uneasy.
We cannot come to work when ill in my place in case of infecting pupils and other staff.

JMO

Nurses & doctors go to work with all sorts as they can't be spared. For conjunctivitis you just pop in some Chloramphenicol drops. Even cold sores and being an MRSA carrier are no reason to stay off these days!

 

[Pinkestpanther]

The being led away in PJs was used by LL as a contributing factor to her suffering from PTSD. By proving this wasn't factually accurate, NJ has shown LL to be very capable of misleading the Jury. Did she really suffer from PTSD as she described? Is this now in doubt? All IMO.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I find this logic baffling, with all due respect. Isn’t her being led away PART of the arrest? I’ll ask a police friend of mine to define it better and report back, but I don’t believe an arrest is purely the act of saying “you’re under arrest” and that’s it. And even if she had then been led away and you’re taking that as a separate event, she still claims she was in her pyjamas and NJ argued she wasn’t.

In this instance, the officers must have had warrants for the arrest of LL. So they would have gone to her known location, knocked the door, informed her the grounds for arrest and read her rights. Usually they cuff people right there and then. That's the arrest bit.

Removing her to a different location then that's the 'taking into custody' bit. Not everybody arrested is taken into custody so it's not a default part of arrest.

All of that is regulated by PACE and scrutinised by defence lawyers for errors. Police need to get it right as once at the station they check in with the Custody Sargeant to prove they've done everything correctly so the person can be admitted into a holding cell.

Edit to add: I'm not saying at some point during the arrest / removal from her home, they didn't give her time to put the tracksuit and shoes on as IMO they probably would have done if she wasn't already wearing them. They would have done that under guard. They also allow people to use the toilet, under guard. They're not looking to rack up human rights violations in this type of instance if you see what I mean.

 

[Anxala]

The "statement' thing struck me as odd from the start. If there were nothing potentially bad looming you would never say that to a colleague, IMO, as their likely response would be sonething like "what do you mean? Why would I need a statement, have you heard something? ". Total panic.

Well, it kind of makes sense in the context of her worrying that she'd be found wanting in her clinical practice and then potentially subject to some type of disciplinary procedure.

And yes, I appreciate, if guilty, the dark irony of my 'found wanting in her clinical practice'.

 

[Legal]

Well to be fair it was me who called into question this whole PJ situation as I wasn't sure. After lots of clarification from posters, I'm persuaded that indeed LL seems to repeatedly bend the truth in the direction she can be seen the biggest victim. That's a pattern the prosecution have drawn out for us all to see.

At the same time, I do feel that if she considered her Lee Cooper tracksuit bed wear and not 'going outside' clothes, it's a less robust point. I guess this is where we all have our own personal opinions.

Also a person who is shocked and aggrieved at being nicked at 06:00 could use a bit of hyperbole and flowery description of the trauma of it all but one would imagine, 1) not on record in a court of law; 2) she has bigger fish to fry than worrying about her perfectly adequate clothing which covered her from head to toe and she even had trainers on.

I'm also convinced that the police, knowing this case would blow up, have been immaculately conducted and they probably do have protocol about allowing people to put on warm enough and dignified enough clothes and footwear if reasonable to do so, which it was.

There's a photo of her wearing the blue Lee cooper tracksuit top outside during the day.

 

[Blondiexoxo]

Going to try and go through some of the bigger contradictions from LL during her time on the stand starting with…

The Shredder-

From CS 2nd May BM direct examination-

3:38pm

Letby says she did not know how many handover notes she had kept at her home. She says they were not all in one place.
She said they would stay in the pocket of her uniform, where it would be on shift, and she would not dispose of it prior to leaving.
"It would just get put somewhere"
"Anywhere in particular?" "No."
The number of handover sheets totalled 257.
Mr Myers: "Did you ever think to yourself, blimey, I have got a lot of handover sheets, I had better get rid of them?"
Letby: "No."
Letby says the notes had no purpose at home and she did not think of them.
Mr Myers says a shredder was found at Letby's home. Letby had previously told police in interview she did not have a shredder. Asked about this, Letby says it was an "oversight", and the shredder had come into her possession quite recently.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, May 2 - defence begins

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

From CS 18th May NJ cross examination
-
10:55am

Mr Johnson says Letby took the sheet for June 23, 2016 home as it had notes of drugs for Child O and Child P.
Letby said there was documentation on there, but cannot be sure what details were on it.
Letby said she took the note home deliberately to bring it back the following day for finishing up writing of medications.
A copy of the handover sheet is circulated to the jury and Letby. Mr Johnson says he is interested in the back, on the medical notes.
Letby describes what is on the note - medication for Child P - caffeine. Nothing was written for Child O. No medications were noted for a third child.
Letby said she had taken it back with the paper towel, which had further details.
Letby is asked when the Morrisons work bag was placed under her bed. Letby says she cannot recall the Ibiza bag became her new bag after her trip to Ibiza around June 2016.
Letby is asked how the handover sheets ended up in her bag. She says after emptying her pockets, the sheets would end up in her work bag.
Nicholas Johnson: "You're ferrying work sheets to and from work."
Letby: "I can't say definitively."
NJ: "They must have been...why put them in that bag at all?"
LL: "I can't recall."
NJ: "Can't or won't?"
LL: "They were just bits of paper to me."
Letby says she accepts pieces of paper were taken between different areas and properties - "it's the paper I accumulate, not the content."
Letby says she has difficulty throwing things away.
NJ: "Is that why you bought a shredder?"
LL: "I bought a shredder for certain documents when I bought the house...predominantly bank statements."
NJ: "Why not the handover sheets?"
LL: "I wasn't aware I had them."

Mr Johnson says the shredder was bought after Letby moved into her Chester home in April 2016.

11:07am

Mr Johnson asks why Letby purchased a shredder if she wasn't going to use it - was she on so much money she could make such purchases?
Letby, after saying she is not sure what finance has to do with this, says she used the shredder to shred bank statements.
"Why did you lie about [not having a shredder] in interview?"
Letby said she didn't recall having a shredder, it was not a significant item in her house.
"Like the pieces of paper?"
Letby agrees.

11:15am

Letby, asked how she could have disposed of handover sheets, said to police in interview she did not have a shredder and, if she did, that would be how she would dispose of confidential documents.
Letby tells the court: "I can't recall at the time - I had just been arrested by police, locating a shredder wasn't on my mind."
Mr Johnson asks when the shredder was bought.
Letby says "shortly before this [police] interview - if I said it was bought recently."
Mr Johnson asks about a shredder box in Letby's parents' home, in her bedroom wardrobe. Letby said "it probably moved with me". She says she cannot recall "definitively" whether it was her parents' shredder.
Mr Johnson says "it was settled" that the box had the word "keep" written on it. Letby said that was to "keep the box and the shredder".
Mr Johnson: "But there is no shredder in the box"
Letby: "The shredder was elsewhere in the house".
Letby agrees her parents would not go in her room at their parents' place.
Mr Johnson asks why the word 'keep' would be written on the box in that event.
"I can't answer that."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, May 18 - prosecution cross-examines Letby

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

I don’t think the first police interview was anywhere close to April 2016 when the shredder was purchased was it? So why does LL claim she brought it recently during the police interview and again on the stand? - when was this police interview?

Did she forget she owned it how does she suddenly remember it was used for bank statements? How did she forget writing ‘keep’ on the box?

The shredder she ‘forgot’ about owning, the shredder which she used to shred bank statements and had the word ‘keep’ written on the box. The shredder she suddenly remembers in police interview she brought ‘recently’, the shredder which on the stand she claims could have belonged to her parents, that shredder, ‘probably moved with me’ when she moved, again claiming that inanimate objects sprout legs and follow her around like the handover sheets that ‘came home with me’.

It’s almost laughable IMO that someone could tell so many lies about a shredder!

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

There's a photo of her wearing the blue Lee cooper tracksuit top outside during the day.

Indeed!

Also with this being such a notable case, IMO a police representative would be following it and double checked themselves against this allegation.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

IMO, her lies are propped up with a level of circular logic fail that possibly belies quite a serious disordered structure of thought which is infantile and serves as ego defending and to deceive maybe even herself as well as others.

I call it 'slippery thinking' and one does sometimes wonder with people like this 'who are they trying to kid' and usually the conclusion is they're trying to kid themselves as much if not more so than others - ie denial.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Lies so far - lets compile a list:

Not using her phone for personal stuff in work / on the ward

Shreddergate

Collecting paper and not finding that worrisome in the slightest

Pyjama-arrest