UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #25

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

It's what Americans call a tracksuit. I'm quite puzzled as to why NJ used that phrase, tbh.

In the UK, we've traditionally called jog pants and a sweater a tracksuit, usually only when they're designed to match and of the sort leaning towards doing an actual sport or physical exercise in.

 

[katydid23]

Why the big effort to deny her her version of what she experienced at the time?

Why? Because she is on trial for multiple murders, and looking closely at her testimony on the stand is crucial evidence.
This was her narrative she was pushing in her opening remarks on the stand--of her being mistreated by the police.

If I think that opening narrative is a lie, crafted for certain response from the jury, I am going to say so.

That she opened the door in her nightwear and was told that she was being arrested and taken in for questioning. That she subsequently was allowed time to pull on a tracksuit before being taken off to the police station is neither here nor there. If I opened the door in my pjs in the early hrs of the morning and the law was parked on my doorstep telling me I was under arrest and needed to come down to the station for questioniIf it was neither here nor thereng, regardless of what I wore on the journey to the police station, I'd still feel perfectly entitled to claim I was arr

If it was neither here nor there, the prosecutor would not have spent so much court time discussing it with her. His point was that she lied about it TO GET SYMPATHY. And that craving for sympathy is a key theme in his prosecution case.

ested in my pjs.

All this gnarly nit-picking seems so pointless, particularly when it has so little bearing on anything.

It does have a bearing on things. It was a carefully crafted narrative, that she told through her tears----of being woken up, arrested and taken out of her home, in her pyjamas. When out on bail, she was isolated, lonely and felt hopeless. She was treated for PTSD because of of all of it.

NJ dismantled some of the narrative by showing pictures of her out and about with some of her co-workers, and having a busy social life, going on trips, and holiday parties and seeing her boyfriend. When he asked her if she was taken out of her home in her PJ's---she admitted that was a lie.

That was important because it showed she was manipulating others with that false narrative---she had everyone feeling sorry for the way the police were treating her that morning of her arrest. She Was Looking For Sympathy.

.

 

[ColourPurple]

She didn't. NJ said she was. Got her to admit she was. The CS standard said she was but did NOT quote her as saying that. Please feel free to post an actual quote of her saying she was.

The Daily Mail also reported that she had told the court she was taken away in her pyjamas:

The 33-year-old nurse sobbed as she revealed that being arrested at dawn by police, and taken away in handcuffs in her pyjamas, had left her with post-traumatic stress and unable to sleep

Dan for the BBC also tweeted at the time that she'd said she was taken away in her pyjamas:

Ms Letby has broke down in tears as she recalls the first time she was arrested - she was woken by officers at 6am in July 2018...She tells the court she was told she was being charged with murder and attempted murder and taken away in her pyjamas. After this first arrest she was released on bail - part of her bail conditions was that she couldn't return to her home, so she moved in with parents

So you've got three different sources all saying that she told the court she was taken away in her pyjamas. Then in court this week Johnson referred back to her having told the court that she was taken away in her pyjamas. I think the chances are that she... told the court that she was taken away in her pyjamas.

And now she's admitted that she hadn't actually been taken away in pyjamas at all and said she doesn't know why she had lied. Not sure why anybody is wasting time discussing whether or not she lied or whether or not she meant "arrested" or whether or not she meant she had a nightie on under her clothing.. when it's a simple case of "She said she was taken away in her PJs, then admitted she hadn't been and didn't know why she'd lied". But hey I thought I'd add to the discussion lol

Dad of 'killer nurse' Lucy Letby made her bed after she was arrested

The 33-year-old nurse is accused of murdering five boys and two girls and trying to kill 10 others at the Countess of Chester Hospital from June 2015 to June 2016.

www.dailymail.co.uk

twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue/status/1653335706805084164

 

[katydid23]

I hear what you are saying, however isn’t it also possible she just become flustered ? I can’t imagine what a mess I would be after days of intensive cross examination in a high profile case like this.

The one thing everyone seems to agree upon is how composed, calm and unflappable she is. Even under pressure she is measured and under control. JMO

 

[katydid23]

I have seen this claim described as being part of an attempt to appear the victim.

YES. That is exactly what it was. The perfect little anecdote, painting the picture of a shocked and confused young nurse, led from her home in handcuffs, dressed in her nightclothes, as her father looks on in despair.

 

[IDK]

The one thing everyone seems to agree upon is how composed, calm and unflappable she is. Even under pressure she is measured and under control. JMO

Interesting— I thought there were at least several instances where she became tearful and upset in court and at least one time court actually needed to be recessed on her behalf? I will look for the article because I personally wouldn’t consider that calm and unflappable.

Found one example (though this isn’t the one I was thinking of where court was delayed):

Lucy Letby: Murder-accused nurse breaks down at trial - BBC News

The murder-accused nurse abruptly leaves her seat as a doctor begins to give evidence.

www.bbc.co.uk

“She was visibly upset as she walked towards the exit door before she had a brief, hushed conversation with a female dock officer”

 

[Sweeper2000]

If she had a tracksuit on she should have just run Out the back door, met up with dr choc and rode off into the sunset. She could have made it if she crossed the Welsh border.

 

[Dotta]

The one thing everyone seems to agree upon is how composed, calm and unflappable she is. Even under pressure she is measured and under control. JMO

Well,
It seems to me it is a "mask".

IMO, she is seething with rage but too proud to show it.

Sometimes, the mask slips:

sudden chuckle, or snapping at the Prosecutor
(according to a poster who attended the trial).

Only Mr NJ KC is measured - except when he cannot help himself and cracks a joke.

JMO

 

[Jayney404]

If true It’s another unlucky event in a lengthy chronology-

The prosecutor unluckily introduces misleading evidence that discredits her version of events, meanwhile her own defence unluckily introduce non agreed evidence as though its agreed. Whilst four consultants unluckily decide she is the person they want to pin a series of deaths upon. Whist she unluckily takes home handover notes corresponding to these exact incidents and unluckily Facebook searches these exact children and families. Whilst the parents unluckily provide evidence that refutes her version of events … I could go on…

I’m sure if the prosecutor has misled the jury this will be robustly challenged on Wednesday and the disputed video will be shown…. Otherwise everyone will be left to deduce what they will.
IMO if guilt etc

 

[Marantz4250b]

I’m sure LL said on Friday that it was the first arrest she was taken away in her pyjamas. Back at the beginning of may when she was being questioned by BM she specifically said ‘taken away in my pyjamas’, I take that to mean she is claiming that she was taken from her home in her pyjamas.

Someone else made a valid point about her maybe being read her rights in her pyjamas but then able to put her tracksuit on before leaving the house, but from LL’s own mouth she claims to have been taken away in her pyjamas. And then she volunteered the information on Friday that that was the first arrest. Which NJ asked her again ‘would you like to see the video’ and she didn’t answer. So IMO she knows perfectly well that she was not just wearing pyjamas when she left the house.

I’ll try and find the exact quotes now, but IMO she was caught out lying, just like she was caught out lying about being isolated and in despair, NJ methodically and effectively IMO has refuted each and every one of her attempts at sympathy.

It all suggests IMO someone who lies that much they can’t remember what they’ve said to whom. As I always say ‘the truth doesn’t change’, and she volunteered the information on direct examination about having no social life and being taken away in her pyjamas, it’s not asif NJ was asking her to agree with him, she gave that information willingly on her first day on the stand when BM was asking about how this has all affected her so she can’t claim to have been under pressure from the prosecution, it was her own barrister and she was happy to give what we now know was false information to the jury.

MOO

Did she, though? This is really my point - this has been asserted, by the CS among others, but no report in the MSM that I'm aware of has actually quoted her as having said it, specifically. If she did then why was in not published in quotation marks?

People are saying it's a trivial point but if it's being mentioned by NJ in order to paint her as a liar then the issue of what she actually said is actually extremely relevant.

 

[katydid23]

Interesting— I thought there were at least several instances where she became tearful and upset in court and at least one time court actually needed to be recessed on her behalf? I will look for the article because I personally wouldn’t consider that calm and unflappable.

Found one example:

Lucy Letby: Murder-accused nurse breaks down at trial - BBC News

The murder-accused nurse abruptly leaves her seat as a doctor begins to give evidence.

www.bbc.co.uk

“She was visibly upset as she walked towards the exit door before she had a brief, hushed conversation with a female dock officer”

Yes, it was considered a big thing, the first time she became upset and tried to walk out. And that was when she heard the voice of her ex-boyfriend from behind the witness screen. The reason it was such a big deal is because it was the first time she had shown any strong emotional reactions. And the trial had gone on for 5 months by then.

There were times she was tearful---like when she spoke about being arrested in her pj's, and when she saw a video of her bedroom. But they seemed to be mostly when she felt sorry for herself.

 

[Tortoise]

Did she, though? This is really my point - this has been asserted, by the CS among others, but no report in the MSM that I'm aware of has actually quoted her as having said it, specifically. If she did then why was in not published in quotation marks?

People are saying it's a trivial point but if it's being mentioned by NJ in order to paint her as a liar then the issue of what she actually said is actually extremely relevant.

I've posted the actual quotes from BBC reporters Judith Moritz and Dan O'Donoghue upthread.

Unless you are claiming all the reporters in court got it wrong.

 

[Dcflag]

To be fair I think a lot of her lies are.. they’re almost half truths that are designed to get sympathy.

You can argue that the leisure suit is part of her pjs, or that she was arrested in pjs but led away in clothing, in the same way you can argue that her social life doesn’t necessarily prove that she didn’t FEEL isolated having been removed from the ward (because logically, that would be a bit isolating in itself). Almost like telling only part of the story, in order to paint herself in the most sympathetic light.

This in itself is more revealing than an outright lie to me. It shows her natural default is unreliable narrator. It means for me that whenever she states an outright fact, there’s potentially always important information that’s withheld to support her statement. It means she’s happy to tell part truths to fit her own narrative and her own portrayal of herself. Being led away in a leisuresuit, or feeling isolated from the ward but still getting lots of support and physical socialisation with colleagues, none of those sound victim-y enough.

 

[WaxLyrical]

In fairness, if I had a lee cooper tracksuit it refer to it as pyjamas. All my loungewear sets I call pyjamas, basically because they are for slobbing around the house and not something I’d typically go outdoors wearing.

 

[katydid23]

I've posted the actual quotes from BBC reporters Judith Moritz and Dan O'Donoghue upthread.

Unless you are claiming all the reporters in court got it wrong.

The Chester Standard, the BBC and the Daily Mail and the prosecutor are all mistaken. Lucy is the arbiter of TRUTH

 

[Tortoise]

The Chester Standard, the BBC and the Daily Mail and the prosecutor are all mistaken. Lucy is the arbiter of TRUTH

Yes, and Myers was snoozing through it all and forgot to object to Johnson accusing her of lying and getting Letby to agree she had lied.

 

[Tortoise]

No it's not in fairness to suggest she thought of her outfit as pyjamas, because she didn't say that, she accepted she lied.

JMO

 

[katydid23]

To be fair I think a lot of her lies are.. they’re almost half truths that are designed to get sympathy.

You can argue that the leisure suit is part of her pjs, or that she was arrested in pjs but led away in clothing, in the same way you can argue that her social life doesn’t necessarily prove that she didn’t FEEL isolated having been removed from the ward (because logically, that would be a bit isolating in itself). Almost like telling only part of the story, in order to paint herself in the most sympathetic light.

This in itself is more revealing than an outright lie to me. It shows her natural default is unreliable narrator. It means for me that whenever she states an outright fact, there’s potentially always important information that’s withheld to support her statement. It means she’s happy to tell part truths to fit her own narrative and her own portrayal of herself. Being led away in a leisuresuit, or feeling isolated from the ward but still getting lots of support and physical socialisation with colleagues, none of those sound victim-y enough.

EXACTLY. And that kind of 'half truthy' way of lying is very subtle but manipulative. And easier to wiggle out of if confronted. You see it in many of her texts to co-workers---telling one thing to one person, but a different version to someone else.

You nailed it with the term 'unreliable narrator"---perfect description. She likes to message others with her narrations, which are partial truths much of the time. Just like her observation notes are mostly correct, but a with a few mistruths sprinkled in.

 

[marynnu]

This one text from Doc Choc really stands out to me:

Doc: Lucy, if anyone knows how hard you've worked over the last three days it's me. The standard of care delivered is tertiary nicu level. if *anybody* says anything to you about not being good enough or performing adequately I want you to promise me that you'll give my details to provide a statement. I don't care who it is and I don't care if I've left the trust. Promise?


Reading that makes me wonder ----maybe one reason NJ spent so much time outing him as a boyfriend was he didn't want the doctor to try and be a character witness for her in any way.

The "statement' thing struck me as odd from the start. If there were nothing potentially bad looming you would never say that to a colleague, IMO, as their likely response would be sonething like "what do you mean? Why would I need a statement, have you heard something? ". Total panic.

 

[Becci]

I see jeans?