UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #27

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He says when she entered the unit, not the room, she saw LL by the nursing station, and it would have been full of other people coming and going. There was no one in the nursery but LL and the twins when the mum went in. He can't say if there would have been other people around at that moment, there have been no witnesses to that. I think even if he means inside the room, he is using misleading language saying "unit" and "nursing station".

I agree. In fact, room 1 is quite separate to the other clinical rooms.
 
Dan O'Donoghue

@MrDanDonoghue
·
8m


Mr Myers picks on how the prosecution described the events surrounding Child E, they said last year that his mother 'interrupted Ms Letby attacking' her son - 'that sounds pretty definite doesn't it'

Dan O'Donoghue

@MrDanDonoghue
·
6m


Mr Myers says 'that isn’t the description she gives, the evidence does not show Ms Letby attacking (Child E)…it’s a highly charged description, highly emotive'

Dan O'Donoghue

@MrDanDonoghue
·
6m


He points out that Child E's mother said she arrived on the unit, to feed her son, and heard her son screaming - when she entered the unit she saw Ms Letby standing at the nursing station

Dan O'Donoghue

@MrDanDonoghue
·
57s


Mr Myers is quoting Child E's mother's evidence from last year. He says the unit would have been "full of people coming and going" and asks how 'horrendous screaming' would that not raise concerns of people nearby? He says it is "unrealistic" the way described

That poor mother listening to her description of horrendous screaming being downplayed like that. I always felt this case was really compelling. I hope it resonates with the jury.
 
Think I might boycott the rest of his speech.

That’s what I’m tempted to do too. I think LL deserves her defence as an absolute right, but BM has no experts, it’s all just “we’re saying this is wrong so you must believe us”. Any experts that ARE mentioned on the prosecution side are implied to be bad at their job or making up evidence. It’s the equivalent of someone turning up and saying “you know how the prosecution said she did this? She didn’t. Bye”.
 
Absolutely! I think it's human nature to want/need to know why someone did a certain thing... I guess it could come out later, if guilty, IMO, etc.
If guilty -

I don't know if it is motivation as such, but I was watching a video the other day about the psychological profile of homicidal poisoners. I hadn't really put LL into the category of (alleged) poisoner before, apart from the (alleged) insulin poisonings, but then I thought well actually if she is guilty of injecting air, that is poisoning too.

Some of the most common traits of (convicted) homicidal poisoners are -

a sense of inadequacy with scorn for authority
a strong need for control
a self-centred exploitative interpersonal style
spoiled in childhood
cunning
skilled at pretending to be something they're not
avoid confrontation so tend to rely on manipulation to get what they want
immature, developmentally stunted, viewing others without empathy

JMO
 
The court hears Child C did not have his bowels open during his life.
Dr Gibbs says that was not surprising as he had not been fed.
Mr Myers asks if that was unusual, after three days, for the bowels not to open.
Dr Gibbs said it could be unusual, but Child C had not been fed, so there were not going to be bowel motions."

Am i missing something here pls?
3 days imo = starving
It was earlier said 4hrs without a feed was sub optimal.
I guess with my lack of knowledge i am missing something.
 
The court hears Child C did not have his bowels open during his life.
Dr Gibbs says that was not surprising as he had not been fed.
Mr Myers asks if that was unusual, after three days, for the bowels not to open.
Dr Gibbs said it could be unusual, but Child C had not been fed, so there were not going to be bowel motions."

Am i missing something here pls?
3 days imo = starving
It was earlier said 4hrs without a feed was sub optimal.
I guess with my lack of knowledge i am missing something.

I think he would have been getting IV nutrition. So, not starving, but not digesting either. JMO.
 
So let's see who went under the bus today -

Dr Sandie Bohin
Dr Harkness
Dr Dewi Evans
Prof Kinsey
Dr Jayaram
various nurses
prosecution (they're always under there)
Dr Marnerides
Sophie Ellis
Melanie Taylor
Caroline Oakley
Kathryn Percival-Ward [Calderbank]
Child E's mother
A female doctor
 
If guilty -

I don't know if it is motivation as such, but I was watching a video the other day about the psychological profile of homicidal poisoners. I hadn't really put LL into the category of (alleged) poisoner before, apart from the (alleged) insulin poisonings, but then I thought well actually if she is guilty of injecting air, that is poisoning too.

Some of the most common traits of (convicted) homicidal poisoners are -

a sense of inadequacy with scorn for authority
a strong need for control
a self-centred exploitative interpersonal style
spoiled in childhood
cunning
skilled at pretending to be something they're not
avoid confrontation so tend to rely on manipulation to get what they want
immature, developmentally stunted, viewing others without empathy

JMO
That is interesting, but there are many people who have those traits in everyday life and are not killers. We've probably all encountered them.

Not trying to defend LL, obviously. JMO
 
The court hears Child C did not have his bowels open during his life.
Dr Gibbs says that was not surprising as he had not been fed.
Mr Myers asks if that was unusual, after three days, for the bowels not to open.
Dr Gibbs said it could be unusual, but Child C had not been fed, so there were not going to be bowel motions."

Am i missing something here pls?
3 days imo = starving
It was earlier said 4hrs without a feed was sub optimal.
I guess with my lack of knowledge i am missing something.
My twins weren't fed until day 3 and 4 either. They had IV nutrition mostly for their first 10 or so days.
 

Air injection evidence ‘so poor it cannot support Letby allegations’​

Scientific evidence of how nurse Lucy Letby was said to have harmed a number of babies was “so poor” it cannot be “safely used” to support the allegations, a court has heard.

It is claimed Letby, 33, targeted a number of infants at the Countess of Chester Hospital’s neonatal unit by injecting air into their bloodstream.

The prosecution say this caused an air embolism which blocked their blood supply and led to sudden and unexpected collapse, with some proving fatal.

On Tuesday, June 27, Ben Myers KC continued his defence closing speech at Manchester Crown Court and asked the jury of eight women and four men to consider how the theory of air embolus worked in this case.

 
Snipped from yesterday

Mr Myers says "various factual allegations" came across Lucy Letby which amounted to 'wholescale document fraud', referred from 'page 34,536 of the evidence', he says, including children not on the indictment - such as 'the Stoke baby'.

Page 34,536 of the evidence is like wow.
No amount of £ would have me sifting through all that.
Poor jury, & both the prosecution & defence have done well in dealing with all them pages of evidence & the rest.
 
This is totally wrong in all respects.

I will quote the evidence reported, and include the evidence of the other experts so that you can see that they all say the same thing as regards June 12th, but they do not say that baby C's collapse and death on the 13th was attributed to air seen on the 12th. Dr Evans not giving a cause for the collapse and death on 13th in his reports is the very opposite of bias against Letby. Continuing to say there was a possibility of deliberate harm on 12th, along with all the other experts, is the very opposite of engineering a case against Letby because she wasn't on shift. Dr Evans was criticised for not having given an opinion that the death was unnatural until he went in the witness box and said his final opinion was based on that of the reports of the radiologist and the pathologist.


Dr Evans Cross-examination -

"He confirms his initial conclusion from 2017 was 'one may never identify the cause of his collapse'.

Mr Myers says up until the evidence of today, he had not provided in his reports an allegation of harm.

Dr Evans says this case "will always be a challenging case" for any clinician as it is difficult to separate the pathological problems from an event where Child C "was placed in harm's way by some kind of deliberate act."

Mr Myers says the 2019 report said Dr Evans raised a possibility of deliberate injection of air from June 12 via the naso-gastric tube.
Dr Evans, reflecting on that report, said: "Can't rule it out".

Dr Evans said what was being discussed, on June 12, there was a "distinct possibility" Child C had excess air in the stomach from CPAP belly.
He was "still stable" from a respiratory point of view.
He tells the court: "However the air went in, it would have been insufficient to splinter the diaphragm on the 12th, as he would've collapsed and died on the 12th."
The air which had gone in was 'insufficient' to cause a collapse. There was 'nothing to suggest' the excess air was enough on June 12.
He says the two events on June 12 and 13 "are quite different" in the way they happened.
Mr Myers said that it was Dr Evans's view, a couple of months ago, there was deliberate harm on June 12.
"That was a possibility, yes it was."

He adds that in coming to his conclusion for this case he is not relying solely on his opinions, but taking in other clinical evidence and reports.
"That is what doctors do, we do it all the time." in what Dr Evans says is a "complicated case".

Mr Myers says the x-ray from June 12 had helped form Dr Evans's initial view that there had been an air injection into the stomach.
"That was an opinion I have expressed, yes."
Mr Myers asks Dr Evans what evidence there is to support that air had been injected into the stomach on June 13.
Dr Evans: "The baby collapsed and died.
"

Dr Evans says none of the normal processes described why a baby collapsed.
He adds, for further medical information, he would prefer to defer the matter to the radiologist and pathologist.
He said he objects to being accused by Mr Myers of making things up, and says he is putting forward the information in this case as a result of his own opinion and that of other people's reports.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, November 1


Dr Bohin's evidence

Asked to explain a build-up of gas in Child C’s abdomen detected on a X-ray on June 12 – the day before his fatal collapseDr Bohin said air could have accumulated via respiratory support he was receiving. The alternative explanation is a deliberate introduction of air down a fitted nasogastric tube, she said.

Prosecutor Nick Johnson KC asked: “When you looked for a reason for (Child C’s) collapse on June 13, can you find an explanation?

Dr Bohin replied: “No. Babies like this should not collapse. You get prior warning that something is amiss.


Lucy Letby trial: Murder-accused nurse told police she found baby’s lingering death ‘quite hard’


Professor Arthurs' evidence -

A further x-ray image is shown for Child C at June 12 at 12.36pm, which is centred at the child's abdomen.
He says the most striking feature about this image is the dilatation of the stomach, which is 'full of gas'.

He says this is more gas in the stomach 'than you would expect for a child of this age'.
There was a 'small tube' in the stomach taking out air.

Professor Arthurs says, for his conclusion for Child C, that the 'marked gas dilatation' in the stomach noted at June 12 had several potential causes, including CPAP belly, sepsis, NEC or exogenous administration of air by someone.

Professor Arthurs, asked by the prosecution about a bowel obstruction, says if the bowel was blocked at a particular point, it would give a 'marker' of where the obstruction was.
He says the image shows no such marker, and as bowel obstructions are a 'common clinical occurrence', it would be diagnosed and babies would go to theatre for an operation.
He says there is no evidence of a bowel obstruction on the imaging, on the clinical notes, or in an autopsy.
Referring to the possibility of a twisted bowel, which he says 'can happen in small babies' and result in a blockage. He says that is often a surgical emergency, and would be documented as such, and found post-mortem if there is such a finding.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Friday, November 11



Prosecution closing speech -

Mr Johnson says Dr Dewi Evans was justifiably criticised for not giving a cause of death for Child C in written evidence, then giving a cause in the witness box.
He says if anyone was caught by surprise, he returned to give evidence on 14 more occasions.
Mr Johnson says Dr Evans's evidence can be disregarded if there had been any confusion for this case, as Dr Marnerides had given more detailed evidence on this.
Dr Bohin excluded the possibility of a bowel obstruction.
Dr Marnerides said there was "nothing unusual" about Child C's bowel. He concluded Child C died "with pneumonia not from pneumonia" and the gas in the bowel could not be explained by infection or an abnormality in the bowel.
He said "air must have been injected into the nasogastric tube", splinting the diaphragm, which would have compromised Child C's breathing and killed him.
He added: "I have never in the past 10 years, come across even a suggestion that 'CPAP belly' would lead to the deterioration of a baby, let alone this gastric distention that would lead to [a baby's death]."
Mr Johnson says Child C came off CPAP 12 hours before his collapse, and "did so well" after kangaroo care he was put on to Optiflow, a 'much less invasive method of breathing support, and his NG Tube had been aspirated shortly before his collapse, and no air was found.
Dr Marnerides described "massive" gastric distention, using the word "ballooning".

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 21 - prosecution closing speech
And in summary, all of the above shows us that there is no reason to say that June 12th should have been included on the spreadsheet as a 'harm' event. Meyers was grasping at straws, IMO.
 
I am finding this incredibly insulting. I do hope the jury do also.
JMO

I think the jury has got to at least be wondering why the defence have no experts… other than the plumber! The prosecution at least had people with tons of knowledge coming in and stating their opinions, the defence just has a man stating that it’s all incorrect and he’s LL’s lawyer.
 
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