VERDICT WATCH UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #28
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Dotta
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It was the Long and Winding Road.
Sigh.
Lucy in the dock without diamonds
Kittybunny
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I've been mostly lurking for awhile but reading every update and every word! An amazing group of posters.
Put me down for 32 hours, 14 minutes!
Put me down for 32 hours, 14 minutes!
Dotta
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Help!
Sweeper2000
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Will the time let us down?
DeDee
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I adore the time slot guessing game for deliberations you are playing. I could not follow along bc of sensitivity to the topic.
How does everyone feel about the prosecution's effectiveness of proving the 22 charges?
How does everyone feel about the prosecution's effectiveness of proving the 22 charges?
Parker Knoll
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I’m sliding into the abyss right now and there is literally no hope for you @ColourPurple !
Parker Knoll
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Jailhouse Rock ?
JMO JMO JMO !!
JMO JMO JMO !!
MissMarbles
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OK so my prediction (total guesswork lol) is the jury may well realise they are more or less in agreement on the charges fairly soon after beginning their deliberations.Deliberations Predictions
8h 30m - @Phoenix Lazarus
9h 30m - @Tortoise
10h 15m - @Diddly1
11h 30m - @Becci
12h 41m - @marynnu
14h 20m - @Becky53
14h 46m - @Marantz4250b
15h 20m - @JosieJo
15h 45m - @katydid23
16h - @Jazmania
17h 30m - @May72031
17h 40m - @Penny68
20h - @Moll
22h 22m - @abovethestorm
23h 12m - @Dcflag
25h - @Sarahlou
28h 28m - @DianaWW
31h 30m - @Sweeper2000
35h 25m - @Dotta
45h 10m - @esther43
75h - @CS2C
---
Thurs 13th July 2pm to 4pm - @Parker Knoll
Thurs 13th July 2.30pm - @Kemug
Thurs 13th July 3.37pm - @Legal
Fri 14th July 12.45pm - @ColourPurple
---
Competition closing date Mon 10th July 2023 10.30am
Prize - nothing
However I think the jury member who was ill several times (if it was the same person each time) and stayed the course may have been determined to finish doing their duty on the jury, so they may insist a minimum of one hour deliberation per charge so they are satisfied in their own mind that everything is in order and done properly and their job is done well......So that's 17 charges meaning 17 hours.
But of those 17 the jury are not unanimous on 2 of them, so they then deliberate again for another 2 hours. Then spend half an hour composing themselves, double checking all forms completed correctly before informing the judge.
So my final answer is 19.5 hours not including breaks
SusanDonim
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9 hours straight for me.
Imo the jury is done just with this nonsense. one guilțy is enough imo
Imo the jury is done just with this nonsense. one guilțy is enough imo
musicaljoke
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I hope they continue to take their important job very seriously.
That tune will never be the same for me again now!
I read the news today oh boy....
at the countess in Cheshire
And though the news was rather sad
Well I just had to look
Having seen the leisure suuuuuit..
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Good point about the breaks. @Tortoise , not to be competitive but can we state the T's & C's upfront please?
Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc
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I've been keeping up. This was the case that led to the path of WS for me.Deliberations Predictions
6h - @NeverPersonal
8h 30m - @Phoenix Lazarus
8h 45m - @Sundial
9h 30m - @Tortoise
10h 15m - @Diddly1
10h 45m - @Bethan
11h 30m - @Becci
12h 41m - @marynnu
13h 13m - @Luwin
14h 20m - @Becky53
14h 46m - @Marantz4250b
15h 20m - @JosieJo
15h 45m - @katydid23
16h - @Jazmania
17h 30m - @May72031
17h 40m - @Penny68
18h - @GoodDayToYouSir
19h 45m - @ScotAng
20h - @Moll
22h 22m - @abovethestorm
23h 12m - @Dcflag
24h 10m - @Blondiexoxo
25h - @Sarahlou
28h 28m - @DianaWW
31h 30m - @Sweeper2000
35h 25m - @Dotta
45h 10m - @esther43
75h - @CS2C
---
Thurs 13th July 2pm to 4pm - @Parker Knoll
Thurs 13th July 2.30pm - @Kemug
Thurs 13th July 3.37pm - @Legal
Fri 14th July 12.45pm - @ColourPurple
---
Competition closing date Mon 10th July 2023 10.30am
Prize - nothing, zilch, not even pizza
41 hours 15 minutes
I'm heeeere!
Sorry for my absence. On Thursday, I left at 5:40am and only had 90 minutes sleep, and didn't get into court until 12:15pm (thanks to a stupid taxi driver - should have walked). I slept on the train home then didn't get the energy to write my second post. I had to go on a pre-planned group outing on the 7th, and have slept all day on the 8th (my birthday :/ )
So just getting the chance to write up now - sorry for causing worries. I didn't manage to see anyone going in or out of court 7, but did briefly see Nick Johnson KC heading off for lunch with some other middle-aged gentlemen.
When I went back into court 8, someone had earlier vacated an end seat opposite the bigger TV screen (the best side of the court), which I went and sat in, and then swapped with a lady who wanted the end seat as she was anxious about catching her train. I ended up in the best viewing seat in the court! I was so pleased, I didn't have to strain to look at all.
Observations:
- More stumbling over words from the judge included calling a baby by the wrong name (think along the lines of "Daniel this, Daniel that, - oh sorry, it's Darius"), and calling a consultant paediatrician a "paediatric paediatrician".
- The judge would also sometimes pause for a few seconds, clearing up his own confusion about what he was reading aloud.
- At one point, somebody made a noise and caused a disturbance in court 7. We couldn't hear them, but they must have apologised, and the Judge was very kind about it. He is very kindly and non-intimidating.
- The judges summing up really was a rehashing of the prosecutions evidence, followed by briefly mentioning the defense disagreeing, or Lucy not remembering, etc.
- One policeman was amused by the retelling of the go commando denial.
- For Baby M, the medical evidence suggests that air could have been injected into the "dead space" of a certain type of line (I can't remember the name of the line) that protrudes from the body. When fluid was next pushed in, the fluid would have pushed the air in the dead space through. This would have given a delay between injection of the air embolism and symptoms appearing, and the air would have entered more slowly, giving Baby M a better chance of survival.
- I felt no clearer after hearing the rest of the evidence about Baby N. I think it's quite risky for the prosecution to have three separate attempted murder charges; it's my understanding that for some of the alleged attempted murders, there is only a single charge despite multiple events, because the repeated attempts are what actually shows intent to kill. They have done this in other cases where the prosecution are not entirely sure what LL is alleged to have done, such as Baby J. Whereas when the attempts are severe and definitive, such is in Baby G, there are multiple attempted murder charges. It seems like Baby N should fall into the single charge category, because it seems like they don't know what exactly she allegedly did for the first two charges, and this may be my poor concentration and memory, but the circumstantial evidence didn't seem to be as strong as for other charges. (I hope @Tortoise can help clarify here!). These charges rely a lot on fitting with patterns with other charges: the scene-setting by talking of his hemophilia, the blood in the throat, etc.
- The medical details for Baby O were devastating. If guilty, for many of the other charges, she seems to have been playing with fate. But IMO, she did not want this baby to have a chance of getting away, at all; someone wanted that baby dead already. He had an air bubble in his heart, distended guts blown up with air, and the traumatic liver injury. His alleged attacker threw everything at him, and it wouldn't surprise me if (if guilty) the liver injury arose out of frustration at the more familiar murder methods not working as quickly as desired.
- There was a break between hearing summing ups for babies O and P, and I stayed in the room. The police were whispering something about the investigation and Baby O, but I couldn't hear what.
- By the time of the summing up for Baby P, I was having micro-sleeps. I just was too sleep-deprived. I feel really guilty and disrespectful. Part of the reason for following this is that I want to see justice done, and it feels like hearing the evidence is hearing and acknowledging what the babies went through. But my brain just wasn't cooperating any more.
- At the end, there was talk from the barristers, about something that could have a "catastrophic" effect on the trial. It sounded like NJ has arranged for photos to be taken of all of the witnesses, because he was involved in a previous medical trial where the jury couldn't remember all the witnesses and asked for photos to help them. This is "evidence" and I think the gist was, it therefore need to be disclosed to the defense. There was some talk about it, and BM agreed the jury can have the photos, if they need them.
- As mentioned, Court 8 was packed. I talked to six of the other trial watchers, all of whom were friendly and interested in talking about it all. Two fellow ladies in their 30's seemed to have a similar view of things as me - and one had also been banned from the biggest Facebook group like me! There was a middle-aged lady who had been to the trial most days, and believed that the hospital was responsible for a lot of the babies' issues, which I found surprising.
- Another lady was there at the beginning of the day, and saw Lucy walk in with her guards. She said Lucy looked like she was laughing.
- For @Dotta - I had full view of her walking off from the knees up, and can confirm she looks to be about the same weight she always was.
- She exudes confidence even when she walks, while walking entirely normally.
- For @Sweeper2000 - from her demeanour, she appears to genuinely not give a *advertiser censored**. Not as in a stroppy, sulky, "*advertiser censored** you I don't care!" sort of way, nor showing contempt by being casual, but truly, at a soul level, she just doesn't seem to care. Totally and utterly unbothered. I am not sure if this means she believes she is going down and is resigned to her fate; I think we can infer that her distress after slipping up under cross examination about Baby I ("I knew what I was looking for - at") means that she does care about the jury's verdict and her own performance on the stand. Logically, that would suggest that she is not "resigned" as such, and her unfazed demeanour must be the result of something else.
Sorry for my absence. On Thursday, I left at 5:40am and only had 90 minutes sleep, and didn't get into court until 12:15pm (thanks to a stupid taxi driver - should have walked). I slept on the train home then didn't get the energy to write my second post. I had to go on a pre-planned group outing on the 7th, and have slept all day on the 8th (my birthday :/ )
So just getting the chance to write up now - sorry for causing worries. I didn't manage to see anyone going in or out of court 7, but did briefly see Nick Johnson KC heading off for lunch with some other middle-aged gentlemen.
When I went back into court 8, someone had earlier vacated an end seat opposite the bigger TV screen (the best side of the court), which I went and sat in, and then swapped with a lady who wanted the end seat as she was anxious about catching her train. I ended up in the best viewing seat in the court! I was so pleased, I didn't have to strain to look at all.
Observations:
- More stumbling over words from the judge included calling a baby by the wrong name (think along the lines of "Daniel this, Daniel that, - oh sorry, it's Darius"), and calling a consultant paediatrician a "paediatric paediatrician".
- The judge would also sometimes pause for a few seconds, clearing up his own confusion about what he was reading aloud.
- At one point, somebody made a noise and caused a disturbance in court 7. We couldn't hear them, but they must have apologised, and the Judge was very kind about it. He is very kindly and non-intimidating.
- The judges summing up really was a rehashing of the prosecutions evidence, followed by briefly mentioning the defense disagreeing, or Lucy not remembering, etc.
- One policeman was amused by the retelling of the go commando denial.
- For Baby M, the medical evidence suggests that air could have been injected into the "dead space" of a certain type of line (I can't remember the name of the line) that protrudes from the body. When fluid was next pushed in, the fluid would have pushed the air in the dead space through. This would have given a delay between injection of the air embolism and symptoms appearing, and the air would have entered more slowly, giving Baby M a better chance of survival.
- I felt no clearer after hearing the rest of the evidence about Baby N. I think it's quite risky for the prosecution to have three separate attempted murder charges; it's my understanding that for some of the alleged attempted murders, there is only a single charge despite multiple events, because the repeated attempts are what actually shows intent to kill. They have done this in other cases where the prosecution are not entirely sure what LL is alleged to have done, such as Baby J. Whereas when the attempts are severe and definitive, such is in Baby G, there are multiple attempted murder charges. It seems like Baby N should fall into the single charge category, because it seems like they don't know what exactly she allegedly did for the first two charges, and this may be my poor concentration and memory, but the circumstantial evidence didn't seem to be as strong as for other charges. (I hope @Tortoise can help clarify here!). These charges rely a lot on fitting with patterns with other charges: the scene-setting by talking of his hemophilia, the blood in the throat, etc.
- The medical details for Baby O were devastating. If guilty, for many of the other charges, she seems to have been playing with fate. But IMO, she did not want this baby to have a chance of getting away, at all; someone wanted that baby dead already. He had an air bubble in his heart, distended guts blown up with air, and the traumatic liver injury. His alleged attacker threw everything at him, and it wouldn't surprise me if (if guilty) the liver injury arose out of frustration at the more familiar murder methods not working as quickly as desired.
- There was a break between hearing summing ups for babies O and P, and I stayed in the room. The police were whispering something about the investigation and Baby O, but I couldn't hear what.
- By the time of the summing up for Baby P, I was having micro-sleeps. I just was too sleep-deprived. I feel really guilty and disrespectful. Part of the reason for following this is that I want to see justice done, and it feels like hearing the evidence is hearing and acknowledging what the babies went through. But my brain just wasn't cooperating any more.
- At the end, there was talk from the barristers, about something that could have a "catastrophic" effect on the trial. It sounded like NJ has arranged for photos to be taken of all of the witnesses, because he was involved in a previous medical trial where the jury couldn't remember all the witnesses and asked for photos to help them. This is "evidence" and I think the gist was, it therefore need to be disclosed to the defense. There was some talk about it, and BM agreed the jury can have the photos, if they need them.
- As mentioned, Court 8 was packed. I talked to six of the other trial watchers, all of whom were friendly and interested in talking about it all. Two fellow ladies in their 30's seemed to have a similar view of things as me - and one had also been banned from the biggest Facebook group like me! There was a middle-aged lady who had been to the trial most days, and believed that the hospital was responsible for a lot of the babies' issues, which I found surprising.
- Another lady was there at the beginning of the day, and saw Lucy walk in with her guards. She said Lucy looked like she was laughing.
- For @Dotta - I had full view of her walking off from the knees up, and can confirm she looks to be about the same weight she always was.
- She exudes confidence even when she walks, while walking entirely normally.
- For @Sweeper2000 - from her demeanour, she appears to genuinely not give a *advertiser censored**. Not as in a stroppy, sulky, "*advertiser censored** you I don't care!" sort of way, nor showing contempt by being casual, but truly, at a soul level, she just doesn't seem to care. Totally and utterly unbothered. I am not sure if this means she believes she is going down and is resigned to her fate; I think we can infer that her distress after slipping up under cross examination about Baby I ("I knew what I was looking for - at") means that she does care about the jury's verdict and her own performance on the stand. Logically, that would suggest that she is not "resigned" as such, and her unfazed demeanour must be the result of something else.
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