UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #3

[arrogantcat]

<modsnip: sub judice> I know it's only the opening statement of the prosecution so bound to highlight the worst and not yet challenged, but... They have literally rebuilt her life over at least twelve months (and probably three years or so), timelined every message, webpage, diary entry, and record form she completed, then cross referenced that with what the other parties involved were doing at the same times. You can see how it has taken so long to build this case it's truly mammoth.

Given this level of detail, it’s honestly a little surprising that they’re currently offering so little by way of evidence.

If you went through my media for a year or two, you’d probably find more! A bad taste joke about a dead baby or me googling some weird child murder case at 3am or similar!

Perhaps there is more to come as we dig into the details, but I expected them to bring out the big guns up front.

 

[kittythehare]

This sounds like like something that could only be caused by malice or incompetence, at which point you'd think the whole ward management team is going nuts and very quickly the closest people to the child (doctors, nurses and parents) would all be under suspicion. Does anyone know if there would be any reason why it might just be considered "one of those things" or at least not unusual in this situation?

No.
But I suspect more will be revealed.
The references to her texts would suggest the recipients would be questioned.

I don't honestly know why the first death didn't bring about a massive investigation and thus end the possibilities for further killings.
What did the death certificates show?
The babies didn't break into the insulin fridges for a nibble, that is for sure.

Insulin is not a controlled drug so would not have been missed..

 

[Sarahlou]

Personally I think he evidence so far has been very convincing. I think they've done a good job. There will much more to come too.

Thanks to everyone who has posted the updates.

 

[kittythehare]

I can only think it would be addicted to the highly emotional state of things, like some super intense real-life soap opera, like a Dementor, sucking in the emotion of it all.

I'm interested in the Ibiza holiday...
one before and one immediately on her return..

 

[MsBetsy]

Just caught up...the details of the events are becoming increasingly unnatural imo based on what we know so far obviously.
<modsnip: sub judice>

The texts repeatedly sent do all have the possibility there of someone covering their back.

Most disturbing today for me is having a photo of the sympathy card she sent to the grieving parents also remembering anniversary of a death specifically

And this is just the beginning. Most circumstantial cases I've followed have been successful. The extent of evidence combined is likely to be overwhelming. Imo

 

[JosieJo]

Personally I think he evidence so far has been very convincing. I think they've done a good job. There will much more to come too.

Thanks to everyone who has posted the updates.

I agree ..more convincing so far than I expected

 

[Music2022]

The interactions with the parents are suspicious. First you have her writing things in the notes that the mothers say didn’t happen, like the mother and doctor chat that didn’t happen, wrong timings etc. Then the smiley gloating how she gave a baby it’s first bath while the mum is sitting there with her dead child.

 

[kittythehare]

I'm really confused at the fact you seem to miss that HER COLLEAGUES are the ones who first started having suspicions because almost every death and near fatality was a patient she had attended to?! That's why this entire investigation was started.

This isn't some statistical conspiracy. In a ward if you have 10 deaths only and people notice that only one person is either attending to/or present at the collapse of most of them, of course it raises suspicions! It's not that she was around when bad things happened, it's that bad things were happening to patients she was treating and attending. These weren't just random patients in a ward she happened to be in, they were patients she was actually attending to proven by door access, messages and colleague testimony. It doesn't matter who else died and by what methods - it matters that LL had 7 deaths and 15 near fatalities that are unusual/suspicious and flagged by people who worked with her.

This is a case that has happened in a digital era where almost every movement can be traced via mobile phones, social media, door access etc.

They haven't actually provided the evidence yet... If you see other transcripts of the case, they say things like 'which we will show in the evidence'. People transcribing are not getting that detail. It's an opening statement.

If it was a conspiracy the door access codes must have been in on it.
Pretty powerful evidence. Right there.

 

[Kemug]

It breaks my heart hearing what those poor babies went through. The bleeding, the vomiting - and they were probably in pain, certainly in distress. If someone indeed caused all that, and could calmly watch them suffer and die, that person is seriously ill, and needs to be locked away from the public.

 

[Kemug]

I wonder if LL was the survivor of twins?

 

[arrogantcat]

This isn't some statistical conspiracy. In a ward if you have 10 deaths only and people notice that only one person is either attending to/or present at the collapse of most of them, of course it raises suspicions!

Does anyone have this info to hand? Ie, total deaths on the ward vs deaths she’s being implicated in?

I was under the impression that the case was initially launched not because of any specific suspicion from colleagues but because of a statistical review which showed an increased number of deaths. LL was then identified as a suspect based on her proximity to these cases. Perhaps that has been superseded by the prosecution, though?

 

[MsBetsy]

Nurse accused of murder 'sent sympathy card to parents'

A hospital nurse sent a sympathy card to the grieving parents of a baby girl she murdered on her fourth attempt, an English court has heard.

www.rte.ie

Nurse accused of murder 'sent sympathy card to parents'​

These babies must have suffered so much pain before they died! The parents must have felt helpless. They placed their faith in the people who were caring for their babies and probably never imagined they would be murdered so ruthlessly. I doubt the staff did either, other than the doctors eventually.

I've always wondered if any suspected a nurse was responsible and it sounds like at least one mother did.

 

[kittythehare]

The interactions with the parents are suspicious. First you have her writing things in the notes that the mothers say didn’t happen, like the mother and doctor chat that didn’t happen, wrong timings etc. Then the smiley gloating how she gave a baby it’s first bath while the mum is sitting there with her dead child.

That suggests cruelty to me.

 

[Marantz4250b]

This sounds like like something that could only be caused by malice or incompetence, at which point you'd think the whole ward management team is going nuts and very quickly the closest people to the child (doctors, nurses and parents) would all be under suspicion. Does anyone know if there would be any reason why it might just be considered "one of those things" or at least not unusual in this situation?

This whole thing is just bizarre. Although it doesn't say it outright it is essentially suggesting that homicide, or at the very least gross mistreatment or indifference as to the patient's wellbeing, was the cause of death here. I cannot fathom why this wasn't immediately acted upon. It has been said that it's extremely difficult to suspend or investigate staff without very good reason, which is fair enough. A PM report such as this would surely be good reason to do so, though?

If she is indeed guilty then it would appear that the hospital may have missed more than one opportunity to have stopped her months before she actually did. IF she's guilty! It's starting to make sense as to why many, perhaps all, of the families have lawyers acting for them. Perhaps this trust is going to be drowned in legal actions at the conclusion of this trial, regardless of which way it goes?

 

[iamshadow21]

I wonder if LL was the survivor of twins?

Adversity doesn't make people hurt those most vulnerable. Taking pleasure in causing others pain does. The vast majority of people who have endured abuse, grief, illness, disability, etc. don't want to hurt others. That isn't to say there aren't predators who have endured trauma, plenty have. But one doesn't equal the other without there being a quirk in there for liking and taking power and pleasure from hurting people. So maybe she is a surviving twin, but millions of surviving twins around the world aren't accused of preying on their patients.

 

[arrogantcat]

An investigation was launched at the hospital in 2017 following 15 deaths and 17 life-threatening incidents involving babies between June 2015 and June 2016.

Letby is charged with the murder of seven babies and the attempted murder of ten others

(Snipped and bold by me. Source.)

So, she’s implicated in 7 out of 15 deaths for the period - roughly half.

Harder to say with the ‘life threatening incidents’ as these don’t necessarily correspond to the charges.

 

[merrypason]

Does anyone have this info to hand? Ie, total deaths on the ward vs deaths she’s being implicated in?

I was under the impression that the case was initially launched not because of any specific suspicion from colleagues but because of a statistical review which showed an increased number of deaths. LL was then identified as a suspect based on her proximity to these cases. Perhaps that has been superseded by the prosecution, though?

Not sure I can post the report here as it's extraneous to the trial. However you can Google it and it pops up. From Jan 2015 - July 2016, there were 13 deaths, 10 of which were considered unexplained and unexpected - with definitions for what they mean. The initial external team focused on reviewing the departments processes, policies etc in light of the increase in deaths (to rule out framework and governance issues). No concrete reasons were found so one of their recommendations was to conduct a closer review of all 13 cases. Which is when the police and another team of clinical experts were brought in. But obviously this was June 2016 and we have heard Consultants noticed and flagged the alarm in Feb 2016.

So out of 13 deaths, 7 are attended to by one person, I'd say that qualifies as statistically relevant.

 

[arrogantcat]

That suggests cruelty to me.

To me it fits with her being a little socially awkward, as previously reported. But then that’s the problem with circumstantial evidence - it’s entirely open to interpretation!

 

[Marantz4250b]

I'm interested in the Ibiza holiday...
one before and one immediately on her return..

I must have missed that, admittedly, I've been doing other stuff most of the day and skim reading stuff.

I remember thinking that a pic or two of hers looked like a holiday pic. A holiday in Ibiza doesn't really enhance the picture of the loner/anti-social weirdo type that some are trying to paint of her - especially the FB nutters. Indeed, it makes her come over as an entirely normal mid 20's woman.

 

[Music2022]

To me it fits with her being a little socially awkward, as previously reported. But then that’s the problem with circumstantial evidence - it’s entirely open to interpretation!

Being socially awkward can explain the bath situation but what about the lies in the medical notes?