UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #3

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Already having a feeling I'll spend most of the next six months moving from one side of the fence to the other, there's going to be a whole lot of things to go through here. Before it opened I leaned towards her innocence, and still do in a way, as I really don't want to believe that someone so "normal" appearing, could be as evil as portrayed. The opening so far, certainly makes the case strongly, and indeed, if taken at face value, horrifyingly... but as others have said, it's the prosecution's job to make a defendant look as bad as possible.

I had so many questions enter my mind reading through this thread so far... How many of the collapses could also be explained by natural causes? Could anyone else have been responsible for those which definitely couldn't have been natural (just two insulin cases? More?)? Even if there is no-one/nothing other than LL who could be the cause, could it have been carelessness/negligence instead of malice (thinking of the air in tube cases here)? Were there any similar suspicious incidents when she was not on duty? Was it common for more experienced nurses to check on patients not assigned to them? Was there any possibility of external contamination of fluids etc? Is there a contemporary paper trail of the suspicion doctors etc had of her or is this suspicion shown with hindsight only? Did she keep paperwork relating to patients who had no suspicious incidents, or only those included in the case?

Hopefully the evidence will clarify many of these, as full context makes so much difference.

And as someone on the autistic spectrum, both the looking at facebook pages and the smiling/talking about first bath things sound entirely normal and things I could/would do myself as a slightly nosy person who's very good at putting my foot in my mouth!

Loads of extremely important considerations @Kasmeer. I do hope these will be robustly addressed during the long haul.

From my awareness of high functioning autism, I also noted how, some of LL's alleged text interactions with colleagues, the deeply moving bathing incident and other examples could so easily be a unique presentation of HFA.

Texting a colleague to request to be allocated to a certain baby that night duty also struck me as possibly arising from the need for uniformity and knowing what is going to happen ahead of time, to reduce anxiety.

MOO
 
But would the medical experts be wrong in all 7 cases of murder and all 10 of attempted murder..??

It's expert medical opinion and the defence will have their own medical experts,whose opinion may not agree with the prosecution's medical experts.

It may be down to whose evidence the jury think is more persuasive. The defence need to create some doubt in what the prosecution alledge, on each charge. The reality is if the defence can create some doubt on a few key charges then the rest may come tumbling down as a consequence.

Until we have heard the evidence proper, both prosecution and defence, then it would be reckless to call it. These are extremely early days.
 
It's expert medical opinion and the defence will have their own medical experts,whose opinion may not agree with the prosecution's medical experts.

It may be down to whose evidence the jury think is more persuasive. The defence need to create some doubt in what the prosecution alledge, on each charge. The reality is if the defence can create some doubt on a few key charges then the rest may come tumbling down as a consequence.

Until we have heard the evidence proper, both prosecution and defence, then it would be reckless to call it. These are extremely early days.
Quite.
hmmm
 
"she was not paralysed" is a strange comment.

IMO

Maybe she was not administered an anesthetic that would exert effect at the neuromuscular junction?

“A paralytic medication is a neuromuscular blocking agent, a powerful muscle relaxant used to prevent muscle movement during surgical procedures or critical care.”

So maybe an anesthesiologist would explain it better, but lack of adequate sedation could have contributed to trauma, e.g., pneumothorax?
 
I'm not new to Websleuths, and have been long fascinated with true crime. I really hope she is innocent, (although if so her current predicament is horrifying), because the thought of her injecting air into tiny baby's tummy until they died, on purpose, for her own "satisfaction" is so absolutely awful. It's going to be a long, and contentious trial, that is already clear. Buckle up everybody!
 
I'm not new to Websleuths, and have been long fascinated with true crime. I really hope she is innocent, (although if so her current predicament is horrifying), because the thought of her injecting air into tiny baby's tummy until they died, on purpose, for her own "satisfaction" is so absolutely awful. It's going to be a long, and contentious trial, that is already clear. Buckle up everybody!

Whether it happened by violence or somehow by nature, dying by the extreme filling of the guts of air is a uniquely horrific way to die. They must have been in agony.
 
Whether it happened by violence or somehow by nature, dying by the extreme filling of the guts of air is a uniquely horrific way to die. They must have been in agony.
It sounds like air was pumped into the stomach before some of it escaped into the guts
 
To me it looks as if Lucy might be lacking in empathy (not understanding how the mother would feel on hearing it); but it might be just her trait.
Add sympathy, compassion, rapport and the absence of professional conduct standards and I might consider 'lack'.

Having said that, without access to the entire chapter of what exactly went on in that room for the duration, it's impossible to call it on a snapshot.
The dead baby and her mother are the victims, the nurse is the accused and her rights will be handsomely defended

Benjamin Myers KC is a leading criminal silk. Described as ‘brilliant’, ‘extremely astute’ ‘an exceptionally gifted lawyer – a fearsome advocate,’ with ‘an exceptional ability to digest complex cases’, he appears in courts across the country and is ranked at the top of his field in crime and financial crime in Chambers Guide to the Legal Profession and in the Legal 500. He has been shortlisted as the Legal 500 Crime Silk of the Year 2022.

How can the parents sit through 6 months of this if an acquittal is the likely outcome?


How do they feel right now?
Did they sleep or eat?
 
To me it looks as if Lucy might be lacking in empathy (not understanding how the mother would feel on hearing it); but it might be just her trait.

But LL was a very experienced nurse. She has had at least several years to observe and learn appropriate ways of communicating with newly bereaved families.

Whether she has a mental condition that causes her to lack compassion, <modsnip>, she has had ample opportunity to learn how to behave acceptably.

Whereas nobody has the opportunity to learn how to behave in the unique situation of being an (alleged) serial killer who is pretending to be nice to her (alleged) baby victim’s mother.
 
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But LL was a very experienced nurse. She has had at least several years to observe and learn appropriate ways of communicating with newly bereaved families.

Whether she has a mental condition that causes her to lack compassion, <modsnip> she has had ample opportunity to learn how to behave acceptably.

Whereas nobody has the opportunity to learn how to behave in the unique situation of being an (alleged) serial killer who is pretending to be nice to her (alleged) baby victim’s mother.
Another question. If LL was a very experienced nurse, was there statistically an increase in neonatal mortality in the hospitals where she worked previously, as it was observed in Chester?

And did the indices of neonatal mortality go drastically down after LL left Chester?

Because the numbers of the babies LL is accused of killing should represent a definite surplus in any given time. They won’t change the statistics only if the hospital is both very big and tremendously subpar.

Let me put it so, if the expected annual mortality in NICU is 7 babies per year, then 7 plus is statistically significant. If the hospital is so poor (or maybe, so big and bad) that annual NICU mortality is 100 babies per annum, then 107 would be not significant. In the later case, malfeasance would be very difficult to prove, unless something is registered by the camera.

As I was posting it, I thought that theoretically, there might be a mix of two factors as well. Imagine LL being the killer, but, say, she killed 3 kids out of 7, and the other 4 were victims of routinely bad medical practice. Difficult…

This article sheds some light on mortality rates in NICU, and the reasons for it. Just some food for thoughts. It is almost as if two statistical models have to be made, one, the regular expected death in Chester NICU (given admissions, number of live births, gestational weight, etc), and the other model, all of these, plus additional variable, LL.

 
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Does any actual open source evidence exist anywhere diagnosing LL with any known mental physical or psychological ailment?/
You can't diagnose someone, especially with mental or personality disorders, without clinically assessing them in person.

<modsnip>
 
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This is a highly complex and very sensitive case and we appreciate that there is a lot of public interest in it.

It is extremely important to remember that criminal proceedings against Lucy Letby are active and that she has a right to a fair trial.

There should be no reporting, commentary, speculation or sharing of information online (including social media platforms) – or otherwise – which could in any way prejudice legal proceedings.

This is unhelpful, could cause distress to the families of the babies involved and could have a big impact on the ongoing criminal case moving forward.

It is also important to remember that reporting restrictions are in place in relation to this trial. This means that a number of witnesses in the case – and the babies involved – cannot be identified.

If these restrictions are breached then you could be held in Contempt of Court – a criminal offence that can carry a prison sentence of up to 2 years, a fine or both.

Please think before you say or do anything and remember that, at the heart of this case, are a number of bereaved and affected families.

We would ask you to respect their privacy during this difficult time.



 
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Another question. If LL was a very experienced nurse, was there statistically an increase in neonatal mortality in the hospitals where she worked previously, as it was observed in Chester?

And did the indices of neonatal mortality go drastically down after LL left Chester?

Because the numbers of the babies LL is accused of killing should represent a definite surplus in any given time. They won’t change the statistics only if the hospital is both very big and tremendously subpar.

Let me put it so, if the expected annual mortality in NICU is 7 babies per year, then 7 plus is statistically significant. If the hospital is so poor (or maybe, so big and bad) that annual NICU mortality is 100 babies per annum, then 107 would be not significant. In the later case, malfeasance would be very difficult to prove, unless something is registered by the camera.

As I was posting it, I thought that theoretically, there might be a mix of two factors as well. Imagine LL being the killer, but, say, she killed 3 kids out of 7, and the other 4 were victims of routinely bad medical practice. Difficult…

This article sheds some light on mortality rates in NICU, and the reasons for it. Just some food for thoughts. It is almost as if two statistical models have to be made, one, the regular expected death in Chester NICU (given admissions, number of live births, gestational weight, etc), and the other model, all of these, plus additional variable, LL.

A couple of points;
A hospital that has a lot of deaths is not necessarily bad, it may in fact be one of the best. The best places, such as ones given NICU status, take on the most difficult cases so outcomes are potentially worse.

Statistically, there will be a normal distribution of neonatal deaths / collapses for every nurse, ward, hospital, region, when you overlay a distribution of deaths where something is amiss it will look different, it's evidence, but it won't prove a person's guilt. It could be due to malice, error, a faulty piece of equipment, a bad batch of medicine.
 
This sounds like like something that could only be caused by malice or incompetence, at which point you'd think the whole ward management team is going nuts and very quickly the closest people to the child (doctors, nurses and parents) would all be under suspicion. Does anyone know if there would be any reason why it might just be considered "one of those things" or at least not unusual in this situation?
It was put down as cpr damage by the doctor at the hospital but prosecutions expert who is looking for child abuse says that's not the case .have ro see what defence experts say
 
ADMIN NOTE:

Numerous posts have been removed.

There is no MSM or other source to support speculation about any specific mental health issue of the accused. This includes autism, which oddly seems to crop in so many discussions when there is nothing to warrant it.

Sub judice is not the topic of this discussion. It is applicable to all cases in the UK.
 
I can do the Standard updates for a bit, but I will have to go out at some point, not sure when yet.
_____


10:34am

The judge has arrived in court. Proseuctor Nicholas Johnson KC will resume the prosecution case outline shortly.
Firstly, discussions on the use of iPads that the jury will use are taking place.
The iPads will not have internet access, and have bespoke passwords for each juror, and will only store the evidence in the case for them to access.

10:38am

Child P - murder allegation
The prosecution allege Child P was murdered the following day from brother Child O.

10:39am

Letby was the designated nurse for Child P.
Letby fed Child P donor expressed breast milk at 8am, 10am, noon, 2pm and 6pm.
The final feed, if accurately recorded, was about 13 minutes after Child O had died.

10:45am

A feeding chart is presented to the court.
All the feeds from 8am-4pm are signed by a student nurse and co-signed by Letby.
The 6pm feed is signed only by Letby.
The court hears on the day shift feeds there is nothing more than a 'trace' aspirate (checking if there is anything in the stomach before the baby is fed), apart from a small amount of vomit at noon. The 8pm feed - the first after Letby's shift, produced a 14ml milk acidic (pH3) aspirate.

10:47am

The court hears because Child O had died in unusual circumstances, Child P was reviewed by Dr Gibbs at 6pm. The abdomen was “full … mildly distended”. There was no tenderness and he had active bowel sounds – good signs.
He was screened for infection.
An x-ray taken at 8pm showed striking gaseous distension throughout the stomach and whole bowel.
Lucy Letby made her nursing notes at 8.24pm - therefore she was still in the neonatal at this time, Mr Johnson tells the court.

10:47am

The allegation is Letby "deliberately caused the problems" as she was ending her day shift, so she would not be detected, Mr Johnson tells the court.

10:49am

On that night shift, milk feeds were stopped for Child P on the grounds that a further large part-digested aspirate was drawn up the NGT at feeding time.
At 6.39am, a nurse recorded the abdomen was "soft and non distended."
25ml of air had been aspirated by one of the nurses, and the NGT had been placed on "free drainage".
Mr Johnson said the "problem" Child P had when Letby handed over to the night shift had been resolved. The problem appeared to be air.

10:51am

When the next day shift happened, Letby was Child P's designated nurse again.
He was with his other brother - the third of the triplets - in room 2.
The court hears as events unfolded, while Letby was the designated nurse for the other triplet, care was transferred to another nurse.
Text messages Letby sent to a doctor at just after 8.30am suggest she had sent, or was sending, her student with a baby who needed an MRI scan.

10:54am

A registrar noted Child P, at 9.35am, had “desat + bradys” and had a moderately distended / bloated abdomen and slightly mottled skin.
Letby's nursing notes from that night (9.18pm-10pm) recorded: "Written in retrospect...NG tube on free drainage - trace amount in tube. Abdomen full – loops visible, soft to touch … Reg...arrived to carry out ward round – [Child P] had apnoea, brady, desat with mottled appearance requiring facial oxygen and neopuff for approx. 1 min. Abdomen becoming distended. Decision made to carry out bloods and gas (approx. 09:30)”

10:55am

The prosecution says it follows the problem with which Child P had been handed over by Letby to the night shift, but then apparently reappeared within 90 minutes of Letby taking over again.
15 minutes later, Child P had an acute deterioration. A crash call went out. Child P was intubated and improved, and efforts were made to transfer him to Arrowe Park Hospital

 
10:59am

Child P's final collapse came at 3.14pm and, despite resuscitative efforts, he died at 4pm.
A post-mortem examination had the coroner concluding Child P died from Sudden Unexpected Postnatal Collapse but he was unable to identify the underlying cause. He certified the cause of death as “prematurity”.
Medical expert Dr Dewi Evans initially suggested the cause of death was complications from his pneumothorax. He was, however, suspicious of the large volume of air in the stomach and intestines evident on x-ray. In his subsequent reports Dr Evans concluded that excess air in the stomach could have “splinted” Child P's diaphragm compromising his breathing.

 
11:00am

Dr Sandie Bohin also concluded that the abdominal distension splinted Child P's diaphragm resulting in an inability fully to expand his lungs and causing his collapse. Subsequent resuscitation and intubation involved high ventilatory pressures, which together with vigorous resuscitation, can cause pneumothorax. She described the abnormal gas pattern seen in Child P's stomach through to his rectum which she concluded it was caused by the exogenous injection of air via the NGT – describing that as “the only plausible explanation”.
This excess gas splinted the diaphragm, compromised breathing and it caused Child P's collapse.

11:01am

Mr Johnson tells the court: "As with all these cases – it is the coincidence of problems happening when Lucy Letby was about and the coincidence of the same problems happening with different babies at different times, which we suggest is so telling and indicates that it was her malign hand at work."

 
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