UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #3

[Legally Bland]

3:17pm

Other staff
Mr Myers said this is important - it would be "unbalanced and unfair" if the focus was on Lucy Letby without focusing on problems with other staff, or how the unit was run.
"We do not suggest for one moment the doctors and nurses did anything other than the best they could.
"What they do is admirable and crucial."

Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

THE prosecution in the trial of Lucy Letby, accused of murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Legally Bland]

3:18pm

"We say there were problems with the way the unit performed which had nothing to do with Lucy Letby."
Examples of sub-optimal care for babies previously mentioned and conceded by the prosecution are relayed to the jury.
"There are many other examples of sub-optimal care of babies in this unit," Mr Myers.

Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

THE prosecution in the trial of Lucy Letby, accused of murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[ConcernedThirdParty]

Thanks for that pal. If she was paying privately though, her costs would be refunded/covered by the court though right?

Legal aid will only cover you if you earn below a certain threshold that isn't very high and you don't have a large amount of money in the bank, but a typical band 5 nurse should qualify and I don't think equity in a house is considered - I think the threshold works out somewhere in NHS band 6, senior nurses and doctors would be on their own.

If you're paying privately by choice or because you don't qualify for legal aid, you will pay much higher than the legal aid rates and if you are acquitted, you will only be awarded what you would have got in legal aid - so most people with jobs in the £40k - £100k range still end up with significant debt and usually parents and relatives too.

 

[gc105]

I've got a vague recollection that the on-call consultant can't say whether he turned off the monitor when he was readjusting the tube. I'll try and look back for it.

That was a different infant (Child G). From Leader Live trial updates:

3:25pm

At 3.30pm a consultant doctor was called to cannulate Child G. Privacy screens were erected and Child G was on a trolley, with the monitor still attached.
The nurse went to care for another baby.
The consultant doctor said he "could not recall" if Child G's monitoring equipment was switched off during the cannula fitting, but "it is his practice to transfer the sensor from one limb to another or if temporary detachment is required to reattach the monitor as soon as possible."
He added if Child G was not stable he would not have left her.

3:26pm

After the doctors had gone, the nurse responded to Lucy Letby's shout for help. When she attended, Child G's monitor had been switched off (power was off). Child G was struggling to breathe. Letby was giving ventilation breaths.
Child G responded to treatment.

 

[Eloise]

3:14pm

"Lucy Letby was a young nurse with no family commitment, who had built her life around the neonatal unit.
"She was often called in to help babies with severe health issues...she was more likely to be there to cover for clinically difficult babies."

Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

THE prosecution in the trial of Lucy Letby, accused of murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

People speculated already they'd use this as a defence, and here it is. That because of her training she'd be given the more difficult babies.
Also I'm not ever sure that "this person built their entire life around their job" is really the defence they think it is? To me that sounds like a person who maybe has lost perspective, become obsessive even, and lost sight of the bigger picture, JMO. Not saying she did. Just saying I don't think that actually sounds like a good thing, not sure why they'd say it as a defence of her.

 

[Legally Bland]

3:19pm

The defence say the prosecutino have referred how babies improved rapidly when moved to a tertiary unit - "when moved away from Lucy Letby"
The defence says the improvement could be because they had been "moved away from the Countess of Chester Hospital".
It is evidence that the unit "did not always deliver the level of care that it should have provided" and to blame Letby "is unfair and inaccurate".

Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

THE prosecution in the trial of Lucy Letby, accused of murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[JosieJo]

If correct, It may highly unethical, it may have been for the parents, or other reasons......what it is not, is proof of murder.

Fortunately, the jury have been advised they must look at evidence objectively and dispassionately.

It may not prove anything on its own..but imo is very much part of the jury's evidence to consider ..depending on the details if proven could be considered with other evidence in an unnatural obsession with the alleged victims.
This type of evidence is very much part of many trials imo

 

[1345]

The psychopath, which I don't think they're alleging she is, is not very conflicted about their actions and may proudly admit them, but more likely wouldn't be stupid enough to leave any hint of a confession lying around where it might get them sent to prison for life.


It sounded like there were lots of notes trying to make sense of what was going on with only one or two that sounded like guilt - more consistent with someone who doesn't know what they're supposed to have done (or possibly someone who knows exactly what they've done but not how much has been discovered) but on occasion was understandably in a very dark place. And also not someone thinking about what the police might find.

I wonder if there is an "emotional" version of Dunning Kruger. The less emotional you are the less you care, the more emotional you are the more you are likely to care and over-think things until you have convinced yourself of guilt.

 

[Legally Bland]

3:23pm

Mr Myers explains the neonatal unit is a level 2 unit, with level 3 offering the highest specialist care for new-borns, such as in Arrowe Park.
Either 'through lack of technical level of skill among the staff, or because it was too busy and could not deliver with the level of staff it had available.'
The Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit was subsequently 'resdesignated' as a level 1 unit after Letby was redeployed in July 2016, Mr Myers said.
"You can imagine in a situation like that, there is bound to be concern."

Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

THE prosecution in the trial of Lucy Letby, accused of murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Eloise]

3:15pm

The defence say Letby's lack of recollecting details in police interviews should be put into context, like other witnesses, who may not be able to recall anything beyond the notes they made at the time.
"Goodness knows how many babies she will have cared for over the years," Mr Myers said.

Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

THE prosecution in the trial of Lucy Letby, accused of murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Yet she was able to remember the families of the babies who died years later when looking them up on Facebook? Remembered them on Christmas Day even? And immediately after waking up?

 

[JennyJukes]

3:14pm

"Lucy Letby was a young nurse with no family commitment, who had built her life around the neonatal unit.
"She was often called in to help babies with severe health issues...she was more likely to be there to cover for clinically difficult babies."

Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

THE prosecution in the trial of Lucy Letby, accused of murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

I'm still working my way through this thread so may have missed something but:

With her presumably being single (her handwritten notes alluded to this?) maybe she was expected to pick up most of the shifts. I know when I worked in care, I was expected to because I didn't have a family and children, so I worked much more than anyone. I also worked Christmas to let my colleagues with kids spend it with their family. I wonder if she was working so much she became to actually resent her job, maybe she felt she didn't get enough recognition for all her hours, maybe she resented the babies, maybe she resented the new parents? Just theorizing...

 

[Legally Bland]

3:26pm

The defence also refer to Dr Ravi Jayaram, and his 'concern' about Letby's behaviour as detailed by the prosecution in the opening.
"You may wonder what on earth that is all about.
"If Dr Jayaram had these suspicions, when did that start?
"You may think that if consultants had suspicions, then why did Letby continue?
"You may wonder if there was any basis for suspicion at all.
"You may think that suspicions by one or more consultants like that, if Letby is to blame, then that is fertile self-serving territory for an assumption of guilt to take hold."
Mr Myers said Letby became a "target" for blame.

Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

THE prosecution in the trial of Lucy Letby, accused of murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Marantz4250b]

Yet she was able to remember the families of the babies who died years later when looking them up on Facebook? Remembered them on Christmas Day even? And immediately after waking up?

She may already have been spoken to by the police at this point as many people at the hospital certainly will have been. Names will have been circulating and if she had been spoken to it seems fairly likely that the police would have been speaking in terms of these specific patients.

 

[merrypason]

It may not prove anything on its own..but imo is very much part of the jury's evidence to consider ..depending on the details if proven could be considered with other evidence in an unnatural obsession with the alleged victims.
This type of evidence is very much part of many trials imo

Agreed. OR if they were taken post mortem, without the parent's knowledge, could point to wanting 'trophies' [depends on the angle the prosecution go down - they brought it up for a reason, the evidence will show why they think this is important to share].

It will definitely be relevant to a jury. Having post mortem photos (if they are) of babies needs a reason. They can't just be dismissed as not directly linked to a murder

 

[cuecard]

3:15pm

The defence say Letby's lack of recollecting details in police interviews should be put into context, like other witnesses, who may not be able to recall anything beyond the notes they made at the time.
"Goodness knows how many babies she will have cared for over the years," Mr Myers said.

Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

THE prosecution in the trial of Lucy Letby, accused of murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

The issue you have here is that LL actively searched some of these parents repeatedly for months and even years after the events and yet said she couldn't recall. If she had just searched once I could understand the forgotten argument. Repeatedly searching for families on social media over that length of time and saying you forgot just doesn't wash with me. Again, just my own opinion.

 

[JosieJo]

3:14pm

"Lucy Letby was a young nurse with no family commitment, who had built her life around the neonatal unit.
"She was often called in to help babies with severe health issues...she was more likely to be there to cover for clinically difficult babies."

Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

THE prosecution in the trial of Lucy Letby, accused of murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Yet was told off for being with babies not her charge? According to prosecution so far

 

[Legally Bland]

3:30pm

"It would be very unfair to judge Lucy Letby by standards or expectations different to other staff in the unit," Mr Myers said.
The defence say if it can be interpreted the unit is understaffed, treatment is "hurried," "mistakes made" and records "not kept". Mistakes may "not be immediate".
Mr Myers: If the unit has "failed" in its care which has led to this "uncharateristic spike in deaths", you can imagine "pressures" which call for an explanation, 'distancing the blame from those running the hospital' through "confirmation bias".
"The blame is far too great for just one person," Mr Myers added.
"In that dock is a woman who says this is not her fault."

Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

THE prosecution in the trial of Lucy Letby, accused of murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Whitehall 1212]

But to support a full hospital failing and not just an individual person failing, they’re going to need to show these similar type deaths on the watch of other clinicians. Because if they can’t, then it’s not a full hospital failing.

The defence only need to create reasonable doubt in the prosecution case, nothing more. The prosecution has to prove what they present to the point where the jury is sure of guilt.

I accept it can seem nuanced, but it elevates the impact of what the defence will say.

 

[Dotta]

Totally agree with this. If I consider what I would think is appropriate in such a situation (obviously I’m not any kind of expert!) it would be to assist where necessary (so for example it can be nerve wracking picking up your deceased child initially, you’re also very used to muscle tone of a living baby, so when baby has none, head flops back. Mouth drops open etc etc, a nurse would be instrumental in helping a bereaved parent navigate all of this demonstrating how to hold or even just placing baby in their arms to start that initial contact) and to become invisible during private moments. Their role isn’t to be intrusive or to converse with the parents or become a “part” of the experience. It’s to support and enable the experience. Smiling could be perceived as you say as compassion, or trying to give reassurance. Theres a fine line between the grief, and trying to maintain a positive experience in spending time with your baby before saying goodbye.

I’m going to guess we’ll be hearing from this particular parent whether a statement or as a witness at some point. It seems the interaction is considered important. The mother clearly didn’t feel comfortable with it.

Inappropriate smiling/laughter might be a sign of mental illness.

I cannot imagine smiling while looking at a parent whose baby died

Inappropriate laughter: Causes, treatments, and coping strategies

Inappropriate laughter is not a medical diagnosis, but some medical conditions may make inappropriate laughter harder to avoid. Learn more.

www.medicalnewstoday.com

 

[Eloise]

Yet was told off for being with babies not her charge? According to prosecution so far

Exactly.
Not impressed with the defence so far.

Also throwing the whole unit under the bus to save LL doesn't impress me much either without stats on how many other babies were dying for no apparent reason

Again... this isn't about LL per se. It's about the so far, IMO, less than convincing defence