UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #3

[Marantz4250b]

If "no explanation" is what they are running with for a lot of these charges - they might as well pack up now.

I disagree. If there is "no explanation" for something they are saying it isn't murder. The prosecution cannot prove murder in the face of there being nothing to explain the collapse/death.

 

[WhoIsThatGuy]

Yes, duty solicitors are available at Magistrates Court for minor offences, at no cost.

Free legal legal representation is also available for most from the point of detention in police custody all the way through to Crown Court trial and appeal etc. LL may have to pay some costs, if she is convicted of any offences....but these will be very negligible compared to the defence costs.

That's the situation bud!

Legal aid

Legal aid helps pay for legal advice, mediation or representation in court - see if you can claim.

www.gov.uk

Thanks for that pal. If she was paying privately though, her costs would be refunded/covered by the court though right?

 

[kittythehare]

Right? It's a lot of "no we disagree" with barely any further detail vs what the prosecution offered.

Is that normal for a defence opening statement? Perhaps the defence opening statement is always less in depth?

They will roll out their experts next, I would imagine to longwindedly drive home their summaries?
Are witness lists published in UK?

 

[ConcernedThirdParty]

The post-it notes I feel are much more favourable to the defence case, but I suppose the prosecution couldn't ignore them.

The psychopath, which I don't think they're alleging she is, is not very conflicted about their actions and may proudly admit them, but more likely wouldn't be stupid enough to leave any hint of a confession lying around where it might get them sent to prison for life.

Which leaves for me three explanations:
1. She did it on purpose, for whatever reason she couldn't help herself and felt guilty about it when she wrote that.
2. She caused at least some of these through incompetent/negligent actions she is aware of and tried to cover up but felt guilty about it.
3. She genuinely doesn't have anything to feel guilty about, but several babies died under her care and she took that hard, as any medical professional she would have reflected on things she could have done differently, and now she's been removed from clinical duties and there's an investigation and naturally people in that situation are going to be on an emotional rollercoaster which would almost certainly include misplaced feelings of guilt.

It sounded like there were lots of notes trying to make sense of what was going on with only one or two that sounded like guilt - more consistent with someone who doesn't know what they're supposed to have done (or possibly someone who knows exactly what they've done but not how much has been discovered) but on occasion was understandably in a very dark place. And also not someone thinking about what the police might find.

It sounds as far as the Facebook thing goes that she didn't search for the family in every case they allege, at least they only chose to mention it sometimes, and I'd expect she probably did in some other cases they don't allege her involvement in? I think they want to suggest she was following her victims after the fact to see the effects of her work, but then wouldn't you expect her to follow all of them and maybe only them?

The rest of the prosecution case has just felt overwhelming and hard to take a step back from to look at objectively. I think it hinges on, could we construct the same stories about other nurses in the hospital, if instead of considering only the deaths and collapses LL is alleged to have been responsible for, we cast a wider net. Is the only really significant fact here the number of events that happened to LL and if so is it actually significant?

Inconsistencies in notes, memories - these are common and could all be meaningless, the prosecution hasn't shown that they don't exist and has occasionally admitted that they do between other members of staff. Are there significantly more between LL and everyone else? Are the differences in LL's notes and memories ALL favourable to herself? - Although even that may be a red herring as people typically tend to frame things in a way that is more favourable to themselves, while we have to be aware some people take responsibility for things that aren't their fault.

Even suspicions some members of staff may have had at the time may not be that meaningful - if you plotted every nurse in the country by number of patients that die on them in a given year, you're probably going to get some sort of normal distribution. I'd be more surprised if no one is ever suspicious of the outliers, I wouldn't be surprised if they blamed themselves (and some will be partly to blame), or started to worry about fate, but they could easily have just been unlucky.

The prosecution makes it sound like these events are pretty rare and the timing is quite unusual - baby is fed, shortly after baby vomits seems unsuspicious to me, but some of the other things I have no reference for. So what's missing for me is a picture of what is usual. Were there other babies that deteriorated at CoCH, were transferred, improved, transferred back, deteriorated again? If so, how many?

I sometimes think prosecutors want us to forget that humans are human. Hopefully most of these questions will be answered or I'd have a hard time knowing what to think.

Apologies if I have misunderstood the rules about what can be discussed, but I think I've avoided giving an opinion on anything I shouldn't.

 

[Legally Bland]

3:02pm

For Child O, the allegations are "various". An air embolus is "not accepted" and the defence point towards an infection, along with "CPAP belly".

Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

THE prosecution in the trial of Lucy Letby, accused of murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Legally Bland]

3:03pm

The "liver injury" was "caused during resuscitation", the defence say. The prosecution "do not accept that", Mr Myers tells the court.

Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

THE prosecution in the trial of Lucy Letby, accused of murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[infinit]

If "no explanation" is what they are running with for a lot of these charges - they might as well pack up now.

I wonder if the logic is that if they can chip away at a few of the cases where the prosecution evidence is more tenuous, you bring into question the entire validity of the argument that there is this constant theme across all the cases.

The defence can't be blamed that no forensic post-mortem or a post-mortem at all in most of the deaths was carried out. When the jury has to be persuaded beyond a reasonable doubt, stating something can't be explained either way is one method of going about that.

 

[Music2022]

For Child N, the defence say there are "many reasons" why a baby would shout or scream.
"It was far more likely to be hunger" - "you certainly won't find evidence of anything else".

Didn’t the prosecution experts say it’s rare for babies that age to scream in distress? Screaming from hunger would’ve been common and not drawn such attention. No?

 

[WhoIsThatGuy]

Just throwing a thought out there.

If there was something catastrophic going on at that hospital relating to care, equipment or dodgy medicine. contaminated stuff on the ward, neglect etc that related to the suffering and deaths of these babies, the hospital would have such bad press, people would lose jobs and the hospital would be liable for huge payouts of compensation the families.

 

[Legally Bland]

3:06pm

For Child P, the defence agree the collapse could have occurred by a splintered diaphragm, but do not agree with how it was caused.
The defence say Optiflow is a cause.
The defence agree once Child P collapsed, it was unclear why he did not respond to resuscitation, but that did not point to deliberate harm.

Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

THE prosecution in the trial of Lucy Letby, accused of murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Tortoise]

let’s assume we believe the baby wasn’t sedated and disconnected the tube, why wasn’t the alarm on when the oxygen levels were dropping?

I've got a vague recollection that the on-call consultant can't say whether he turned off the monitor when he was readjusting the tube. I'll try and look back for it.

 

[Legally Bland]

3:07pm

For Child Q, the defence say there was viral-drawn aspirates, indicating a bowel problem, supported by a diagnosis of NEC.
"A poorly funcitioning bowel" had led to Child Q vomiting.

Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

THE prosecution in the trial of Lucy Letby, accused of murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[kittythehare]

3:00pm

For Child N, the defence say there are "many reasons" why a baby would shout or scream.
"It was far more likely to be hunger" - "you certainly won't find evidence of anything else".
Regarding the allegation Letby did something to cause Child N to bleed, the prosecution say the intubating doctor already saw blood, because Letby harmed him.
The defence disagree and say blood was "not identified until intubation had already happened, or was in the process of happening".
There were three attempts to intubate him.
The defence say, again, there was "sub-optimal care" for Child N.

Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

THE prosecution in the trial of Lucy Letby, accused of murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

The parents of the dead children are listening to this..

 

[JosieJo]

2:28pm

"You will hear in this case, that the air present after death does not indicate an air embolus."
Mr Myers said air present in the abdomen "can happen post-mortem".

Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

THE prosecution in the trial of Lucy Letby, accused of murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Didn't the radiographer say "even allowing for post mortem changes" so had taken this into consideration? In prosecution opening

 

[Legally Bland]

3:11pm

Mr Myers added there are two further areas to consider.
"It is important not to guess, or proceed on a presumption of guilt."
"Even when we have timings...some will be more precise than others."
There were many occasions when "Lucy Letby was simply not there" when harm was being alleged.

Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

THE prosecution in the trial of Lucy Letby, accused of murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Thats never been raised, as far as I'm aware. If the notes are indeed her confessions to these crimes then I can't see how not guilty by reason of insanity would fly as for that to apply you have to have no appreciation as to the "nature and quality" of your actions. Essentially, you don't believe them to be wrong. Those notes, taken at face value, do show an appreciation of wrong doing.

I don't for one moment think that diminished responsibility will come into this, the defence case doesn't indicate that.

In general terms re diminished responsibility, it can be a fleeting episode of mental impairment to the standard required by law. It does not have to be present leading up to or ongoing. It only has to have been present at the time of the guilty act.

 

[Legally Bland]

3:14pm

"Lucy Letby was a young nurse with no family commitment, who had built her life around the neonatal unit.
"She was often called in to help babies with severe health issues...she was more likely to be there to cover for clinically difficult babies."

Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

THE prosecution in the trial of Lucy Letby, accused of murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Legally Bland]

3:15pm

The defence say Letby's lack of recollecting details in police interviews should be put into context, like other witnesses, who may not be able to recall anything beyond the notes they made at the time.
"Goodness knows how many babies she will have cared for over the years," Mr Myers said.

Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

THE prosecution in the trial of Lucy Letby, accused of murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Marantz4250b]

It sounded like there were lots of notes trying to make sense of what was going on with only one or two that sounded like guilt - more consistent with someone who doesn't know what they're supposed to have done (or possibly someone who knows exactly what they've done but not how much has been discovered) but on occasion was understandably in a very dark place. And also not someone thinking about what the police might find.

If she had lots of similar notes which were written as a therapeutic sort of thing then it's quite possible that one or two might imply guilt - may even be written in the form of "confessions".

When Barry George was convicted of shooting Jill Dando one of the pieces of evidence presented was a copy of the BBC's internal staff magazine, Aerial, I think it was called, which featured an article about JD. Thing is that he was a massive hoarder and have several copies of that magazine along with hundreds of other publications 99% of which was entirely unrelated to that particular crime. He was, of course, totally innocent of that and it was pretty obvious to most people that he was from the outset.

It's easy to make something relevant in a flurry of utterly irrelevant "fluff" if you really want to.

 

[Tortoise]

I've got a vague recollection that the on-call consultant can't say whether he turned off the monitor when he was readjusting the tube. I'll try and look back for it.

Ah it might have been to do with a different baby -

From prosecution's opening -
"At 3.30pm a consultant doctor was called to cannulate Child G. Privacy screens were erected and Child G was on a trolley, with the monitor still attached.

The nurse went to care for another baby.

The consultant doctor said he "could not recall" if Child G's monitoring equipment was switched off during the cannula fitting, but "it is his practice to transfer the sensor from one limb to another or if temporary detachment is required to reattach the monitor as soon as possible."

He added if Child G was not stable he would not have left her."

Recap: Prosecution opens trial of Lucy Letby accused of Countess of Chester Hospital baby murders