UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #3

[Music2022]

And why was this one incident not subject to an investigation in and of itself? The fact it seemingly wasn't reduced the credibility of the doctor's account IMO. How do we know that LL herself didn't walk in to find the breathing tube disconnected and went into some sort of shock / horror overwhelm 'freeze' response?

It’s indeed surprising why he didn’t report this. I look forward to her version of events, esp why the alarm was not sounding.

 

[Kitaro]

Yeah, the defence are going to have a hard time with this.

 

[Kinderbelle]

https://www.nhstaysidecdn.scot.nhs.uk/NHSTaysideWeb/idcplg?IdcService=GET_SECURE_FILE&dDocName=DOCS_059217&Rendition=web&RevisionSelectionMethod=LatestReleased&noSaveAs=1

After 14 years on wards I'm extremely familiar with the policies regarding confidential waste.

Handover sheets you are given at the start of every shift are about 3 pages of A4 you fold up and stick in your pocket. The NHS put their trust in you to put them in the confidential waste. If we are caught with them offsite we get disciplined, if they are found out in public with our names written on them we get disciplined. We know the consequences and the risk of taking documents out of the hospital but that does not stop those handovers leaving in those pockets, accidentally or otherwise.

Regardless, there isn't someone at the door checking our pockets as we exit the ward, no spot checkers around the outside of the building and no one going through our cars to make sure we aren't stashing them in there. Hell, they don't even check to make sure you write your name on them at the start of a shift so they can trace them back to you.

 

[Tortoise]

There's two words before that, can anyone make out what they are?

I think it's many _____ like it could be many think or many say?

Sorry I had to go out, I don't know if this has been answered or not -

I think it reads - "they won't" in answer to the question in the line before it, as in -

How will things ever be like they used to
they won't
I don't deserve to live
I killed them on purpose because I'm not good enough to care for them

 

[Kinderbelle]

I seem to recall it mentioned that potential bullying might have been going on somewhere. I'm sure back at the time several members here expressed their experiences that bullying was, and is, absolutely rife in the NHS. I've always been of the opinion that she doesn't seem the type who'd handle that kind of thing well from the descriptions of her in the media.

I agree that this note coud very much convey what you are saying. If she mentions "police investigation" in it (I hadn't picked that up) then it suggests that it was written after the investigation started or was likely to start. Although, I agree that it's clearly been added to over time.

But, yes, it could point in either direction, to be honest.

On bullying being rife in the NHS, my experience varied from ward to ward and trust to trust. I worked with some extremely close knit, supportive and welcoming teams and I worked with some incredibly vicious people who would sooner stab you in the back than admit their own negligence. What I will say is that you don't see or hear about the heartwarming stories of everyday work in the media about the NHS because that's not exciting or dramatic. You hear about things like baby murderers, medication errors, waiting lists, red tape, privatisation and fraud.

I could tell you many stories of all the above from my time in nursing in the NHS, but I could tell you a ton more about solid, supportive teams and incredible staff members who go above and beyond and break their backs every day to save and care for people. Often to the detriment of their own lives and health. Those people vastly outweigh the bullies and the cliques, but as I say no one talks about the good, only the bad.

 

[Kitaro]

I'm still keeping an open mind as it also says I haven't done anything wrong and why me?

They are Ian Huntleys exact words!

 

[kittythehare]

After 14 years on wards I'm extremely familiar with the policies regarding confidential waste.

Handover sheets you are given at the start of every shift are about 3 pages of A4 you fold up and stick in your pocket. The NHS put their trust in you to put them in the confidential waste. If we are caught with them offsite we get disciplined, if they are found out in public with our names written on them we get disciplined. We know the consequences and the risk of taking documents out of the hospital but that does not stop those handovers leaving in those pockets, accidentally or otherwise.

Regardless, there isn't someone at the door checking our pockets as we exit the ward, no spot checkers around the outside of the building and no one going through our cars to make sure we aren't stashing them in there. Hell, they don't even check to make sure you write your name on them at the start of a shift so they can trace them back to you.

2.8. Legal Matters and Complaints Nursing & midwifery records, diaries, birth plans and anything that makes reference to the care of the patient or client may be required as evidence to investigate a complaint, adverse or criminal incident or by the NMC Fitness to Practice Committee. In negligence and malpractice law, the nursing records would be used as the most reliable source of evidence regarding quality of nursing care delivered. It is a part of the Health Record which is used as legal evidence of treatment. As often a significant period of time has passed and an individual’s recall may not be as dependable, accurate record keeping may protect against a lawsuit (Dimmond 2011).

 

[notsure]

Her writings don't sound like they come from a cold-blooded killer. She is full of guilt and remorse, but that could be because she feels she wasn't good enough to save them.

 

[Powermjp]

Her writings don't sound like they come from a cold-blooded killer. She is full of guilt and remorse, but that could be because she feels she wasn't good enough to save them.

Lots of killers feel sorry for themselves, usually the only person they care about.

 

[Kitaro]

Her writings don't sound like they come from a cold-blooded killer. She is full of guilt and remorse, but that could be because she feels she wasn't good enough to save them.

I personally can’t see that and fully believe this individual shows strong signs of not being able to form and sustain meaningful relationships and has serious issues around being able to interpret and express emotions.

 

[Dotta]

Re photos of dead babies on this person's phone.

It simply boggles my mind

What was the purpose of it???

I remember the scandal when 2 Police officers in the UK took photos of 2 dead sisters.
They were jailed.

Isn't it the same situation?

Where is the work ethics?

If I were the parent I would never let it pass.
Never!

Two Met police officers jailed over photos of murdered sisters | Metropolitan police | The Guardian

amp-theguardian-com.cdn.ampproject.org

 

[PoirotPink]

Yeah, the defence are going to have a hard time with this.
View attachment 373002

To me, it seems this note might have been written as a sort of suicide note while experiencing suicidal ideation. The last couple of lines in particular about the world being better off without her and not deserving her parents. The fact that the note is titled "NOT GOOD ENOUGH" might also provide some context for how she used that phrase later (i.e. it is a reference to her self-worth or not being a good person rather than ciinical incompetence / not being a good enough nurse). That's how it reads to me anyway.

It's also interesting to note that she wrote, "I DID THIS" twice.

 

[Kitaro]

To me, it seems this note might have been written as a sort of suicide note while experiencing suicidal ideation. The last couple of lines in particular about the world being better off without her and not deserving her parents. The fact that the note is titled "NOT GOOD ENOUGH" might also provide some context for how she used that phrase later (i.e. it is a reference to her self-worth or not being a good person rather than ciinical incompetence / not being a good enough nurse). That's how it reads to me anyway.

It's also interesting to note that she wrote, "I DID THIS" twice.

I agree and the first thing I said when I saw it was it looks like a practice suicide note

 

[Marantz4250b]

Re photos of dead babies on this person's phone.

It simply boggles my mind

What was the purpose of it???

I remember the scandal when 2 Police officers in the UK took photos of 2 dead sisters.
They were jailed.

Isn't it the same situation?

Where is the work ethics?

If I were the parent I would never let it pass.
Never!

Two Met police officers jailed over photos of murdered sisters | Metropolitan police | The Guardian

amp-theguardian-com.cdn.ampproject.org

It isn't remotely the same situation. Not even close.

 

[notsure]

Lots of killers feel sorry for themselves, usually the only person they care about.

Of course, I'm only giving my personal impression. My thought was that if she was a cold-blooded, calculating killer, why would she write down such words?

 

[annpats]

Her writings don't sound like they come from a cold-blooded killer. She is full of guilt and remorse, but that could be because she feels she wasn't good enough to save them.

I personally don't think the musings on the note sound guilty or remorseful at all.
Not once does she mention the babies themselves or their parents or her colleagues.

There is also no questioning 'Why are all these babies dying?' 'Why is it always on my shift?'

MOO.

 

[29 Acacia Road]

On first reporting of the note and the prosecution's description of it, it seemed damning. However having heard the defence's explanation It still looked bad for LL but not as strong, having seen the actual note, it is clearly written in some sort of anguish (possible breakdown). As others have said, I don't think it was written all at the same time, there is obvious points where she has squeezed something extra on. I don't think the note is a solid 'confession' at all, she could well be guilty and some of what she said could well be admission of guilt, but I definitely don't see it as a proper slam dunk confession.

 

[MsBetsy]

And why was this one incident not subject to an investigation in and of itself? The fact it seemingly wasn't reduced the credibility of the doctor's account IMO. How do we know that LL herself didn't walk in to find the breathing tube disconnected and went into some sort of shock / horror overwhelm 'freeze' response?

When the doctor asked her what was going on, she said the baby "just started deteriorating now."

She was interrupted before when an alarm went off and another nurse came in to find her standing by the incubator. That baby died the next morning.

The alarm may have been turned off on this occasion so she wouldn't be interrupted. Imo

 

[Marantz4250b]

To me, it seems this note might have been written as a sort of suicide note while experiencing suicidal ideation. The last couple of lines in particular about the world being better off without her and not deserving her parents. The fact that the note is titled "NOT GOOD ENOUGH" might also provide some context for how she used that phrase later (i.e. it is a reference to her self-worth or not being a good person rather than ciinical incompetence / not being a good enough nurse). That's how it reads to me anyway.

It's also interesting to note that she wrote, "I DID THIS" twice.

Back when she was first at Crown Court and was denied bail the court was told, by the prosecution, that there were significant reasons to believe that she should be remanded for her own protection. The way in which it was presented made lots of people, including myself, to feel that she mostly needed protection from herself. This note pretty much confirms that, I think.

 

[annpats]

It isn't remotely the same situation. Not even close.

No, not the same situation, but a similar happening. Employees in public employment should not be taking photos of the deceased.
The 2 police officers were sentenced to prison time, and if a nurse was on trial for the same thing, then I'm sure prison time would be sentenced too.