UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #3

[Marantz4250b]

Perhaps she didn't think they would!
A sort of 'in denial' thing that she'd ever be arrested or questioned.....?

The note mentions "Police Investigation" though so the chances that they'd show up if she were guilty are pretty high.

 

[Jules2021]

Can't help but think about the ramifications of this trial. Firstly, regardless of outcome, there is going to be so much doubt from people who think she's innocent, and people who think she's guilty. It's already so muddy, but because of the content of the crimes (if indeed there are crimes) people will have an exceptionally strong opinion on it.

On top of that, it's going to change everything about patient records and so forth.

Yeh honestly, I worry about the depth of feeling this is gonna cause and people getting in heated arguments about it. Especially when race gets brought up, people feel very strongly she's somehow gonna get special treatment, or that people don't think she's guilty solely based on race and gender.

 

[annpats]

The note mentions "Police Investigation" though so the chances that they'd show up if she were guilty are pretty high.

I wonder at that stage if the police investigation was still in its infancy and looking more at the failing hospital as a whole....?
Perhaps in her naïvety, she didn't think she'd ever have her house and belongings searched by police as she did...?

 

[Powermjp]

Can't help but think about the ramifications of this trial. Firstly, regardless of outcome, there is going to be so much doubt from people who think she's innocent, and people who think she's guilty. It's already so muddy, but because of the content of the crimes (if indeed there are crimes) people will have an exceptionally strong opinion on it.

On top of that, it's going to change everything about patient records and so forth.

I feel that a change in patient records or some sort of CCTV in these rooms may happen?

Something to stop this happening again or deter it, but then again it something that happens so rarely maybe there won't be any changes, not sure.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

I personally don't think the musings on the note sound guilty or remorseful at all.
Not once does she mention the babies themselves or their parents or her colleagues.

There is also no questioning 'Why are all these babies dying?' 'Why is it always on my shift?'

MOO.

We are reading words and phrases hopefully all with reasonably well-balanced, rational heads on.

I suspect LL was pouring out all her thoughts at a time of overwhelming angst.

Maybe consider a personal experience when in a desperately dark place - pain, fear, anger, hate, sadness, loss, betrayal etc etc,. and think how you respond.....hit the wall, get drunk, scream/shout, sob uncontrollably?

Well, my take is that this is LL screaming out all her raging/racing thoughts, when she had no control over anything in her life.

It's all about the context of when and why she wrote it and where she was mentally at the time.

Seeing the note as judge, jury and executioner is to completely misunderstand the objectivity that is needed to assess the whole of the evidence on its relative (prosecution v defence) merits. We are in day 3 of 120 or so and some already want her head on a plate.

Thankfully, the court will progress calmly and diligently to their conclusion next Spring, when the heady days of Summer beckon.

 

[elephantsomething]

Yeh honestly, I worry about the depth of feeling this is gonna cause and people getting in heated arguments about it. Especially when race gets brought up, people feel very strongly she's somehow gonna get special treatment, or that people don't think she's guilty solely based on race and gender.

There's enough factual stuff to get annoyed about, at the very minimum what appears to be complete incompetency on the part of the Trust. No idea why people need to get angry about things that haven't happened.

 

[squish]

Can't help but think about the ramifications of this trial. Firstly, regardless of outcome, there is going to be so much doubt from people who think she's innocent, and people who think she's guilty. It's already so muddy, but because of the content of the crimes (if indeed there are crimes) people will have an exceptionally strong opinion on it.

On top of that, it's going to change everything about patient records and so forth.

If she’s found guilty, there will be a massive review of the hospital of why she was not discovered/reported sooner.

Eg the consultant paediatrician who witnessed a possible murder attempt. At the moment, his judgement of and reaction to the situation may yet be correct. It’s only if and when she’s found guilty that they can start dealing with the failure to spot an active serial killer under their noses, and tightening record-keeping, rules on access to insulin etc.

On a related note, some posters have considered whether LL is an innocent scapegoat for a failing hospital. This is not the case, because prior to her arrest, there had already been a review into the excess deaths of babies, and no accusations were made, just a few recommendations.

The hospital had the opportunity there and then to rugsweep, but they didn’t. The hospital were the ones who contacted the police themselves, and a lot is coming out in this trial that makes them look bad. So it is of no benefit at all for them to be trying to scapegoat LL.

 

[Powermjp]

We are in day 3 of 180 or so and some already want her head on a plate.

This always happens in such cases like this, people make quick judgements, human nature.

Lucky the general public isn't going to decide but the jury and court of law.

 

[Rhomal]

To me, it seems this note might have been written as a sort of suicide note while experiencing suicidal ideation. The last couple of lines in particular about the world being better off without her and not deserving her parents. The fact that the note is titled "NOT GOOD ENOUGH" might also provide some context for how she used that phrase later (i.e. it is a reference to her self-worth or not being a good person rather than ciinical incompetence / not being a good enough nurse). That's how it reads to me anyway.

It's also interesting to note that she wrote, "I DID THIS" twice.

I think the “I did this” could have been meant in a despairing way ie that she is lamenting that her own actions have been interpreted to show guilt. Doesn’t necessarily mean she is guilty.

 

[TheAnalyser]

If she is found not guilty, and also is also actually innocent (although we wouldn't know), there will be some people who will never believe it, simply down to the reporting of the note. It was either first or second headline on the national news this evening (BBC & ITV) and the actual note itself was only on the screen for a second, most of the reporting was simply around the "I did it" and "I'm Evil" lines, that will stick in people's minds for years.

I am still opem minded on whether she is guilty or not, but if she is found not guilty, she may well have to have a new identity, given how heavy the reporting of the prosecution's opening statement has been.

I agree with you. Reporting on this case should have been barred until the facts were proven (either way in court).

 

[Dotta]

I feel that a change in patient records or some sort of CCTV in these rooms may happen?

Something to stop this happening again or deter it, but then again it something that happens so rarely maybe there won't be any changes, not sure.

I guess changes are inevitable.

After unthinkable horror of hospital morgue rapes by "bedsit killer" changes were introduced.

And that was certainly very rare atrocity.
Moo

 

[smucklecrumble]

It's not just her physical appearance though is it. It's also her gender and mostly the fact she's an average person who has studied hard, worked hard, has many life privileges, and comes from what so far appears to be a very 'normal' background with no outstanding or notable issues (well, none that have been publicly mentioned so far). Hardly the average profile of a killer - far from it in fact.

Tbh it's reminding me of Beverley Allitt, the investigating officer said similar about her appearance and how well liked she was by the families as a reason why they didn't at first suspect her

 

[Rhomal]

Hello this is my first post so apologies if i write anything not allowed.

Sometimes when you are constantly told and persecuted for something you are alleged to have done there is a chance your mental status could play a trick on you and you could start to believe you did what you are alleged to have done - even though you are innocent. Lets all remember how long LL has been on remand and prior to being on remand the multiple times she was interviewed by the police.

LL has had this ordeal to contend with for a significant amount of time. Sadly there are a lot of people that rather than wait for the facts to be detailed in court and the court to decide if guilty or not they decide LL is guilty. All this then plays on LL's mental health.

Where was the note found? Was it whilst she was on remand? LL's mental health must feel like its been tortured. Since she was arrested and alleged to have done these crimes her name and her parents details has been on public view. <modsnip: Opinions regarding guilt or innocence are violations of sub judice>

It is a very sad case and i do (of course) feel for the parents. <modsnip: Opinions regarding guilt or innocence are violations of sub judice>

<modsnip: Disaparaging officers of the court is a violation of sub judice>

Total agree with this and know someone who demonstrated this when they were wrongly accused of rape and started to question their own sanity and memory.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Hello, I’m also new here but have read wb cases for some while now. I want to offer an impartial view, but first; it was asked some while ago about past relationships and there was (is) a photo circulating online with what appears to be an engagement ring on her finger. In other photos, there is no ring.

At first, my impression was perhaps this was someone who was unable to have children or maybe suffered a loss of a child herself. Seeing the note at first, it appeared to indicate this; I reads almost as hateful, resent, envy, was she unable to have children, is that the connection to not having a family? Since re-reading, it appears to reflect more on what is happening; the police investigation and outcome she is fearful of her fate, prison, no children, no family.
The very odd thing in the note, is it appears to be quite a desperate note which when you re-read, does spark some level of innocence..and the desperation to be believed , but on the flip side, the reference to *doing this, evil etc* it appears something else very unsettling. I can’t quite figure this out.

On a separate note, those who may be blindsided by “looks” or certain types of people who do these things is very stereotypical. I have worked with someone very similar to this person. Sweet, kind, typical girl-next door. The signs are not always obvious, I’m fact so subtle you start to question your sanity, are you imagining it etc..When confronted, tears, very emotional, manipulating even by using emotion and becoming quite upset. Strange subtle things continued, all very extremely uncomfortable all with this airy and sweet likeness!! I was aware of a few others feeling the same (self doubt, questioning their own judgment), again, it can be very difficult to prove. What is also interesting is, they later became quite angry (but emotionally upset type angry) they had done nothing wrong- which was proved they actually had!

The simple point, sometimes even when others can see things are not right, this type of person doesn’t seem to actually want to accept any wrongdoing. The way in which it is done is also so subtle, you start to believe that you, yourself are the issue. It’s very manipulative behaviour.

I do think there lots more things to come with time, and no idea which way this will go, but my deepest thoughts and love to all those effected, I can’t imagine what they must have been and are going through, including the jury, it must be extremely difficult for them too.

Some good points in there. Do you have a link to the pic of her wearing a ring? I've never noticed anything like that.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

When the doctor asked her what was going on, she said the baby "just started deteriorating now."

She was interrupted before when an alarm went off and another nurse came in to find her standing by the incubator. That baby died the next morning.

The alarm may have been turned off on this occasion so she wouldn't be interrupted. Imo

The prosecution opening statement is not lawful evidence....it's headlines.....designed to draw in the easily impressed.

This is a mere snippet of what this witness is alleged to have seen/heard.

None of this evidence has been tested in court yet!

We have no idea of the totality of what this doctor will say in the witness box or even how credible he will be under cross-examination.

 

[Dcflag]

Last November a report by the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health (RCPCH) found that staffing at the hospital’s neonatal unit, which reported a “higher than usual” number of baby deaths, was inadequate. Two babies died in the unit in 2013 and three died in 2014. In comparison, there were eight deaths in 2015 and five in 2016.
The review found no definitive explanation for an increase in mortality rates, but identified significant gaps in medical and nursing rotas, poor decision-making and insufficient senior cover. Last July the Countess of Chester hospital stopped providing care for babies born earlier than 32 weeks.

This old article from 2017 suggests there were 15 baby deaths they were concerned with. Out of the 13 that died in 2015-2016 LL is presumably being accused of causing 7 out of 13 of them. Which suggests there were also some 2014 concerning deaths that haven’t made the charge list.

Source link: Police investigating baby deaths at Countess of Chester hospital | UK news | The Guardian

 

[merrypason]

Some good points in there. Do you have a link to the pic of her wearing a ring? I've never noticed anything like that.

I think I know the one being referred to. The ring is on the right hand so not likely to be an engagement ring. it's the commonly used one in a pink top and white jacket, holding a drink.

 

[Jules2021]

There's enough factual stuff to get annoyed about, at the very minimum what appears to be complete incompetency on the part of the Trust. No idea why people need to get angry about things that haven't happened.

Oh yes definitely, I just feel like people are bringing race and gender into it a lot and looking for arguments (not on here) and the guilty vs innocent camps could divide a lot of people.

 

[kittythehare]

The prosecution opening statement is not lawful evidence....it's headlines.....designed to draw in the easily impressed.

This is a mere snippet of what this witness is alleged to have seen/heard.

None of this evidence has been tested in court yet!

We have no idea of the totality of what this doctor will say in the witness box or even how credible he will be under cross-examination.

OP is answering a question with the information supplied by the prosecution.
She is not claiming it is evidence presented or the full story.

 

[MsBetsy]

I guess it would help to have a very clear time line of these incidents

I find it hard to comprehend why someone wasn't instantly removed from duty pending investigation if the scenario described by the doctor happened how they say.

Yes, it would be great to have a timeline for each baby we can refer to on the thread. It would probably take up a full page, though. <modsnip>