UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #3

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Hello, I’m also new here but have read wb cases for some while now. I want to offer an impartial view, but first; it was asked some while ago about past relationships and there was (is) a photo circulating online with what appears to be an engagement ring on her finger. In other photos, there is no ring.

At first, my impression was perhaps this was someone who was unable to have children or maybe suffered a loss of a child herself. Seeing the note at first, it appeared to indicate this; I reads almost as hateful, resent, envy, was she unable to have children, is that the connection to not having a family? Since re-reading, it appears to reflect more on what is happening; the police investigation and outcome she is fearful of her fate, prison, no children, no family.
The very odd thing in the note, is it appears to be quite a desperate note which when you re-read, does spark some level of innocence..and the desperation to be believed , but on the flip side, the reference to *doing this, evil etc* it appears something else very unsettling. I can’t quite figure this out.

On a separate note, those who may be blindsided by “looks” or certain types of people who do these things is very stereotypical. I have worked with someone very similar to this person. Sweet, kind, typical girl-next door. The signs are not always obvious, I’m fact so subtle you start to question your sanity, are you imagining it etc..When confronted, tears, very emotional, manipulating even by using emotion and becoming quite upset. Strange subtle things continued, all very extremely uncomfortable all with this airy and sweet likeness!! I was aware of a few others feeling the same (self doubt, questioning their own judgment), again, it can be very difficult to prove. What is also interesting is, they later became quite angry (but emotionally upset type angry) they had done nothing wrong- which was proved they actually had!

The simple point, sometimes even when others can see things are not right, this type of person doesn’t seem to actually want to accept any wrongdoing. The way in which it is done is also so subtle, you start to believe that you, yourself are the issue. It’s very manipulative behaviour.

I do think there lots more things to come with time, and no idea which way this will go, but my deepest thoughts and love to all those effected, I can’t imagine what they must have been and are going through, including the jury, it must be extremely difficult for them too.

This is a really interesting point in my opinion, though I couldn't say if this describes LL with the information we have now. But I have had a friend like you describe and also had a boyfriend and these people are narcissists. The way they manipulate the truth to make themselves the victims is called gaslighting.

I feel very sad for the parents of the babies because it looks like how they died is going to be analysed and discussed at length by the prosecution and defence and it must be heartbreaking for them.

On a more pragmatic issue, this case is also going to cost the NHS a huge amount of money that it can ill afford, regardless of outcome. Regarding the discussion of legal aid, the situation may have changed since I studied law 10 years ago, but legal aid was not related to income but to the seriousness of the potential outcome. Hence, Kevin and Ian Maxwell received over 4 million pounds in legal aid for their fraud trial, despite their father being a billionaire.

 
You're right! I hadn't noticed that photo before. It's not the most clear but there's definitely a ring on her left ring finger. Looks like she's between two lads with pixellated faces.
Ah, yeah, I've seen that pic a lot. It's the only one I can find with a ring on her "left" hand. I wonder if it's transposed and it's actually a reversed image? The ring gives the impression of the one seen on her right hand in lots of pics.
 
Evening.
Question to members with knowledge of prescribing,dispensing rules/records in NHS re insulin in ward.
So we can be aware further in case.Thankd
not a controlled drug.
2 nurses much check dose after injection iss drawn up
refrigerated,
2 types, long acting and short acting
but it's years since I administered it and those rules may have been changed several times in interim,
just off top of my head and diabetes not my area of expertise
double check current advisories on nhs site
 
Fundamentally, regardless of whether LL is guilty of murder, the Trust/management are undoubtedly guilty of inadequate care. Either they've had X number of babies die due to bad practices over a year, or they've had an active serial killer for a year and did nothing meaningful to stop it.

I think you may underestimate how hard it is to catch a clever and determined serial killer in this setting. It can almost be undetectable, and in my opinion it's shown up flaws in these units.
These babies are so vulnerable

They did suspect but again it's very hard to gain evidence and it's also extremely rare to have a serial killer.

And actually it could be more than a year, potentially but they are only bringing charges they believe they can secure a sentence
 
You're right! I hadn't noticed that photo before. It's not the most clear but there's definitely a ring on her left ring finger. Looks like she's between two lads with pixellated faces.
I had really been considering both sides of the trial (Innocence vs guilty) and whilst we have not seen and need more evidence to a clearer more definite perspective in due course; I’m still trying to process that *if* guilt is apparent, what the driving force might be. I have known of circumstances where some women have been bitterly spiteful to those who have children because they have been unable to conceive. Or, they have suffered loss themselves, abuse, an operation preventing such etc. Is that what we might be seeing here?

It would be interesting to know (if indeed this was an engagement) *when* and furthermore, in the photos where there is no ring, when (or even if) it ended. Does that relate to the timeline of events in any way. Something very strange but I can’t help but wonder if found to be guilty, there could be some kind of personal trauma that has led into such a sad and deeply upsetting outcome.

I also feel concerns would have been raised previously in death occurrences which may have been pushed aside as a term of workplace bullying perhaps. In another forum, I read someone stated the chief executive of the hospital resigned the day she was first arrested with full pension. * I have no idea how true that is of course* and I can’t remember for the life of me where I read it; but I am keeping an open mind about different possibilities. Just a very sad, awful situation whichever way this turns out.
 
If she completed nurse training and passed her exams and required a full internal investigation before being identified she was steady enough to pass muster! I don't think she was unattractive based on photos in your link. I've heard of her case but not read up on it.
I don't think looks have much to do with it.
Reading Sun article it appears to be very similar.

We must have read different articles then as it states she was deeply psychologically troubled in her teens, barely passed her exams (which were no-where to the level that LL took), was the only student not offered any job at the end of training, was erratic in attendance, etc.
 
Just as a point on one bit in the note "Never marry and never have a family", that read to me more like "because of this investigation I'll never have a normal life", rather than her saying she can't have kids and being able to use that as a possible motive. And she's right, even if she gets found not guilty, she will have to assume an identity and will constantly be hunted by the public. She won't ever have a normal life, even if completely factually innocent.
 
I had really been considering both sides of the trial (Innocence vs guilty) and whilst we have not seen and need more evidence to a clearer more definite perspective in due course; I’m still trying to process that *if* guilt is apparent, what the driving force might be. I have known of circumstances where some women have been bitterly spiteful to those who have children because they have been unable to conceive. Or, they have suffered loss themselves, abuse, an operation preventing such etc. Is that what we might be seeing here?

It would be interesting to know (if indeed this was an engagement) *when* and furthermore, in the photos where there is no ring, when (or even if) it ended. Does that relate to the timeline of events in any way. Something very strange but I can’t help but wonder if found to be guilty, there could be some kind of personal trauma that has led into such a sad and deeply upsetting outcome.

I also feel concerns would have been raised previously in death occurrences which may have been pushed aside as a term of workplace bullying perhaps. In another forum, I read someone stated the chief executive of the hospital resigned the day she was first arrested with full pension. * I have no idea how true that is of course* and I can’t remember for the life of me where I read it; but I am keeping an open mind about different possibilities. Just a very sad, awful situation whichever way this turns out.
Serial killers choose victims they can easily overpower.
Defenceless babies might be ideal for some, especially twisted women.
Oh, and smiling at grief stricken parents pretending sympathy, might be additional kick.

Unfortunately, some professions are magnets for disturbed people.

Moo
 
If it has personal information on it (name, dob etc)....it is confidential personal data. This includes staff details

if it has ANY medical information relating to an individual it is Special Category Data (even more serious)

Removing or retaining it without the permission of the Data Controller is an offence under DPA 1996 or 2018

Additionally, a breach of Caldecot Principles and conditions in a contract of employment, regarding the security of data, and there could be a triple whammy of workplace discipline, being sued in the civil court and criminal proceedings.

Ignorance is no defence in law and many don't seem to be aware of this and how it could impact career and financial position.
I totally agree fully aware as are most nurses but handovers in pockets happens on a daily basis in hospital trusts all over the UK
 
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I had really been considering both sides of the trial (Innocence vs guilty) and whilst we have not seen and need more evidence to a clearer more definite perspective in due course; I’m still trying to process that *if* guilt is apparent, what the driving force might be. I have known of circumstances where some women have been bitterly spiteful to those who have children because they have been unable to conceive. Or, they have suffered loss themselves, abuse, an operation preventing such etc. Is that what we might be seeing here?

It would be interesting to know (if indeed this was an engagement) *when* and furthermore, in the photos where there is no ring, when (or even if) it ended. Does that relate to the timeline of events in any way. Something very strange but I can’t help but wonder if found to be guilty, there could be some kind of personal trauma that has led into such a sad and deeply upsetting outcome.

I also feel concerns would have been raised previously in death occurrences which may have been pushed aside as a term of workplace bullying perhaps. In another forum, I read someone stated the chief executive of the hospital resigned the day she was first arrested with full pension. * I have no idea how true that is of course* and I can’t remember for the life of me where I read it; but I am keeping an open mind about different possibilities. Just a very sad, awful situation whichever way this turns out.

In the initial independent review of the hospital (of a whole rather than just maternity services I believe) and subsequent ones, there have been concerns about bullying culture within the staff at the hospital. Along with issues surrounding a lack of senior staff members, understaffing in general, among other general sub par conditions and practices.

I did also stumble across a 2016 document that suggests CoCh was supposed to be trialling a new electronic tracking system that would help workflow. It suggests it could track staff. I wonder if this was ever implemented across maternity.
 
Can someone confirm-they are only looking at a year long period to ensure a conviction and she actually could've started earlier?
I think so, yeah.
she could have started immediately after qualifying for all anyone knows,if she is guilty as charged.

Edit to add
 
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Just as a point on one bit in the note "Never marry and never have a family", that read to me more like "because of this investigation I'll never have a normal life", rather than her saying she can't have kids and being able to use that as a possible motive. And she's right, even if she gets found not guilty, she will have to assume an identity and will constantly be hunted by the public. She won't ever have a normal life, even if completely factually innocent.

To be fair this is the case with all people who get arrested for crimes. Being arrested for SA or rape will ruin anyone's life. Being in the news for being arrested for all sorts of crimes ruins lives. It's our justice system, the only people who are truly anonymous are SA victims, when they come forward.
 
Ah, yeah, I've seen that pic a lot. It's the only one I can find with a ring on her "left" hand. I wonder if it's transposed and it's actually a reversed image? The ring gives the impression of the one seen on her right hand in lots of pics.
It could be that she's someone who wears non-engagement rings on that finger too. I know some people do. And maybe it is the same ring, she just swaps hand to hand?. There's never been any mention of bf, fiance, husband etc. In fairness, the one thing the media have been good at is keeping her personal life fairly private.
 
Serial killers choose victims they can easily overpower.
Defenceless babies might be ideal for some, especially twisted women.
Oh, and smiling at grief stricken parents pretending sympathy, might be additional kick.

Unfortunately, some professions are magnets for disturbed people.

Moo
I think so, yeah.
she could have started immediately after qualifying for all anyone knows,if she is guilty as charged.
If she’s found guilty, there will be a massive review of the hospital of why she was not discovered/reported sooner.

Eg the consultant paediatrician who witnessed a possible murder attempt. At the moment, his judgement of and reaction to the situation may yet be correct. It’s only if and when she’s found guilty that they can start dealing with the failure to spot an active serial killer under their noses, and tightening record-keeping, rules on access to insulin etc.

On a related note, some posters have considered whether LL is an innocent scapegoat for a failing hospital. This is not the case, because prior to her arrest, there had already been a review into the excess deaths of babies, and no accusations were made, just a few recommendations.

The hospital had the opportunity there and then to rugsweep, but they didn’t. The hospital were the ones who contacted the police themselves, and a lot is coming out in this trial that makes them look bad. So it is of no benefit at all for them to be trying to scapegoat LL.
I did read on another forum someone stated that the chief exec left shortly after her first arrest with full pension. Whether guilty or not, sadly and rightly so, the hospital will be questioned how previous concerns were dealt with. Just so unimaginably sad for all those babies :(
 
To be fair this is the case with all people who get arrested for crimes. Being arrested for SA or rape will ruin anyone's life. Being in the news for being arrested for all sorts of crimes ruins lives. It's our justice system, the only people who are truly anonymous are SA victims, when they come forward.
I agree, but those people don't get a new identity.
 
I think so, yeah.
she could have started immediately after qualifying for all anyone knows,if she is guilty as charged.

Edit to add
Thank you, and I meant to put if guilty of course. If it does turn out she's guilty it's crazy enough to think she managed to get away with it for a whole year never mind that it might actually have been longer. You would think they'd be reviewing her nursing skills at the least...
 
This always happens in such cases like this, people make quick judgements, human nature.

Lucky the general public isn't going to decide but the jury and court of law.
Indeed.
I cannot process maths but day3 and 2 gone already!
What are the chances?
 
I am still opem minded on whether she is guilty or not, but if she is found not guilty, she may well have to have a new identity, given how heavy the reporting of the prosecution's opening statement has been.

<modsnip - sub judice>

But seriously, yes, these accusations are so serious, and so heinous, many would never believe it if the verdict came back NG.
 
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