UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #3

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Yeh true she might not. JMO but what with her being so obviously emotional she might be a talker and want to explain exactly what was going on in her mind at the time and what she meant by it, although she could well have been advised against it. Maybe she'll say she can't remember writing it!
As WH1212 has said, I too cannot see her giving evidence. Whether she's guilty or not, given the contents of that note I don't think she's remotely capable of standing up to that. She'd be eviscerated on cross examination.
 
As WH1212 has said, I too cannot see her giving evidence. Whether she's guilty or not, given the contents of that note I don't think she's remotely capable of standing up to that. She'd be eviscerated on cross examination.
Good point, whether innocent or guilty her mental state is probably so bad it's possible she would just admit to committing the murders/attempted murders during cross examination.
 
What I notice about her scribbles, amongst many things, is that there is only one mention of the past, and it is framed in a positive light, she mourns the loss of it. It doesn't come across to me as someone in despair over a lifetime of feeling not good enough.

As a whole, it feels (IMO) like a response to being powerless and therefore the time looked back on that she wants back was when she had power; power represents her equilibrium.

This is my transcription of the handwriting - the writing on the right hand side coloured green - and the relevant line in red


NOT GOOD ENOUGH

There are no words - - - I am an awful person . I pay everyday for that

I can’t breathe - - - I can’t focus

- - - - Kill myself right now

Overwhelming fear I panic - - I’ll never have children or marry I’ll never know what it’s like to have a family

I haven’t done anything wrong

Police Investigation- - - forget

Slander - - Discrimination - - Victimisation

All getting too much - - everything - - Hate myself so much for what this has

Taking over my life - - every(one?) HATE

I feel very alone + scared

What does the future hold

How can I get through it?

How will things ever be like they used to

- - - - they won’t

I don’t deserve to live - - I killed them on

purpose because I’m not good enough to

Killing me

care for them + I am a horrible evil

person - - - I don’t deserve Mum + Dad +

world is better off without me - - Tom + Matt

NO HOPE - - DESPAIR - - PANIC - - FEAR - - LOST - - I DID THIS - - WHY ME - - I AM EVIL I DID THIS
 
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I’m finding it very difficult to buy into the ‘coincidence’ theory/reasoning (that I’m sure the defence will use). in cases of isolated incidents, absolutely. However, for 7 deaths and 15 near-deaths to occur in little over a years period under the care/eye of one staff member (who in a large number of the instances wasn’t even their designated nurse) is damning (IMO).
22 incidents in about 12 months - that comes to almost one every 2 weeks! Even if there was no particular trigger to start this killing spree (and I'm thinking that there may have been), there were no signs of it abating. If I had the energy, I would put all the dates together, and check whether in fact the incidents were becoming closer together.
 
DBM - accidental duplicate post
 
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<modsnip: Quoted post was removed> Mr Myers KC mentioned confirmation bias in his address today.

I believe he is setting his stall out to do business with logic process, a la Lucia de Berk.

I hope the jury have their thinking heads on
 
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Good point, whether innocent or guilty her mental state is probably so bad it's possible she would just admit to committing the murders/attempted murders during cross examination.

I suspect she is a shadow of her former self. That has been very much implied by Mr Myers KC.

What can she say about the deaths/collapses? They were 6-7 years ago! Unless she has anything significant to change or add to the police interview record, although less credibility may be placed on it now.

She could probably only say words to the effect that she 'didn't harm the babies'. It's what did or didn't happen in the hospital that is the basis for proving guilt or confirming innocence.

I don't think there would be anything she could offer that would make it worth taking the risk of going into the lions den.

The key risk comes with the FB searches, post it note, text messages and handover documents.

These matters are purely circumstantial, but she can't deny their existence.

She would likely will likely be destroyed by the skills of Mr Johnson KC and say something she didn't mean. It would be an unedifying sight.

Mr Myers KC can navigate the rebuttal of the prosecution case, with the help of both sets of witnesses.

MOO
 
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On first reporting of the note and the prosecution's description of it, it seemed damning. However having heard the defence's explanation It still looked bad for LL but not as strong, having seen the actual note, it is clearly written in some sort of anguish (possible breakdown). As others have said, I don't think it was written all at the same time, there is obvious points where she has squeezed something extra on. I don't think the note is a solid 'confession' at all, she could well be guilty and some of what she said could well be admission of guilt, but I definitely don't see it as a proper slam dunk confession.
This may have been mentioned, but when I saw the note it reminded me of an exercise I did in group therapy. We had to write down our fears and lies that we believed about ourselves. Most peoples papers were covered in things like “I’m a bad mother” or “I’m a horrible friend” and they weren’t necessarily confessions or true, they were fears or things the person believed about themselves. I kind of wonder if this could be what she was doing. The idea in therapy was that by writing it down, “getting it out on paper”, you take away some of the power of the lie/fear. That would also explain why things look like they were added later - she could’ve kept this in a pocket and added to it as new fears/depressive/anxious thoughts came up.

I haven’t formed an opinion yet on guilt or innocence so not trying to sway anyone one way or another. Just throwing out a possibility, and what the note personally reminded me of.

JMO!
 
Yep. It's very much a pity party for LL.
Seems to be it’s a note by someone who is severely traumatised and is out of their minds with anxiety, with all that enormous stress going on year after year. I have been involved on behalf of a mother whose child was illegally kidnapped by child protection agencies. She was diagnosed with the severest form of PTSD. Dutch Family Justice – the tragic case of José Booij

I’m not saying LL is innocent. I’m saying that in my opinion, these notes seem to me to be entirely consistent with the defence case as presented so far.
 
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What I notice about her scribbles, amongst many things, is that there is only one mention of the past, and it is framed in a positive light, she mourns the loss of it. It doesn't come across to me as someone in despair over a lifetime of feeling not good enough.

As a whole, it feels (IMO) like a response to being powerless and therefore the time looked back on that she wants back was when she had power; power represents her equilibrium.

This is my transcription of the handwriting - the writing on the right hand side coloured green - and the relevant line in red


NOT GOOD ENOUGH

There are no words - - - I am an awful person . I pay everyday for that

I can’t breathe - - - I can’t focus

- - - - Kill myself right now

Overwhelming fear I panic - - I’ll never have children or marry I’ll never know what it’s like to have a family

I haven’t done anything wrong

Police Investigation- - - forget

Slander - - Discrimination - - Victimisation

All getting too much - - everything - - Hate myself so much for what this has

Taking over my life - - every(one?) HATE

I feel very alone + scared

What does the future hold

How can I get through it?

How will things ever be like they used to

- - - - they won’t

I don’t deserve to live - - I killed them on

purpose because I’m not good enough to

Killing me

care for them + I am a horrible evil

person - - - I don’t deserve Mum + Dad +

world is better off without me - - Tom + Matt

NO HOPE - - DESPAIR - - PANIC - - FEAR - - LOST - - I DID THIS - - WHY ME - - I AM EVIL I DID THIS
@Tortoise, your green remarks are what an evil and actually guilty person might write. Here is an exercise. Imagine you were a good nurse, present at repeated dramatic unhappy incidents in a hospital, but did not knowingly do anything wrong. You become accused of terrible crimes and your whole life is devastated. You were happy being a single person with cats, you don’t want to bring children into this terrible world and you don’t want to get stuck in a relationship with one single person, but you love your work which gives (gave) you immense satisfaction. You are a good person. You love your parents and are devastated by what this whole affair is doing to them. Moreover you will be unable to care for them when they are old, which is kind of how you expected your life course. Now please write red explanatory comments which such a person might write.

I have no idea what kind of person LL is.
 
@Tortoise, your green remarks are what an evil and actually guilty person might write. Here is an exercise. Imagine you were a good nurse, present at repeated dramatic unhappy incidents in a hospital, but did not knowingly do anything wrong. You become accused of terrible crimes and your whole life is devastated. You were happy being a single person with cats, you don’t want to bring children into this terrible world and you don’t want to get stuck in a relationship with one single person, but you love your work which gives (gave) you immense satisfaction. You are a good person. You love your parents and are devastated by what this whole affair is doing to them. Moreover you will be unable to care for them when they are old, which is kind of how you expected your life course. Now please write red explanatory comments which such a person might write.

I have no idea what kind of person LL is.
I'm not the OP, but if it were me, I'm
sure I would never write, "I killed them on purpose because I am not good enough to care for them. I am a horrible, evil person."

If I were innocent and accused of such a crime, I'd think I would be confidant police wouldn't find evidence to connect me to 22 different babies.

I would not doubt my skills if I were a "good nurse."

I would have confidence that my family would support me.

Other lines, such as, "All getting too much", and "taking over my life," to me describe a person completely overwhelmed by what's happening around them. It doesn't indicate guilt or innocence, imo. What is relevant is the 'confession.'

And yes, we don't know much about the defendant or her history so we don't know if she'd be thinking about how all this would effect her parents or concerned about who is going to care for them when they're old.

We also don't know if she didn't want a child or a partner, or was happy living single with cats. For all we know she dreamed of marriage and children all her life.

She does seem to care very much what her family thinks of her, though.
 
I was 50:50 whether she would take the stand. But having heard defence say words to the effect of ...you won't learn anything from that woman in the Dock as she is destroyed...I think definitely not.

Obviously it's her right not to go on the stand and no inference should be taken by that but no matter how much that's said there usually is.

Clever of the defence to play the poor nurse who is distraught card to try and explain the decision, this may be so, but in a situation where you have say a burly man on trial for murdering 10 women I'm not so sure being distraught would pack the same punch
 
I was 50:50 whether she would take the stand. But having heard defence say words to the effect of ...you won't learn anything from that woman in the Dock as she is destroyed...I think definitely not.

Obviously it's her right not to go on the stand and no inference should be taken by that but no matter how much that's said there usually is.

Clever of the defence to play the poor nurse who is distraught card to try and explain the decision, this may be so, but in a situation where you have say a burly man on trial for murdering 10 women I'm not so sure being distraught would pack the same punch
Going by what LL said in interviews with police, it's probably a good idea that she not take the stand. Imo
 
A couple of points;
A hospital that has a lot of deaths is not necessarily bad, it may in fact be one of the best. The best places, such as ones given NICU status, take on the most difficult cases so outcomes are potentially worse.

Statistically, there will be a normal distribution of neonatal deaths / collapses for every nurse, ward, hospital, region, when you overlay a distribution of deaths where something is amiss it will look different, it's evidence, but it won't prove a person's guilt. It could be due to malice, error, a faulty piece of equipment, a bad batch of medicine.

This is exactly what I was thinking about. That even an unexplained rise in NICU mortality at any given time should have been the reason for root-cause analysis. At any given time such analysis is performed, many factors might be discussed, but how often does “a murderer among staff” is even considered as the factor?

This makes me wonder if the whole story with accusing LL started as a subjective case, with someone reporting something, be it a certain incident, or a SM post, or something inexplicable to them but seeming suspicious.

And here is my concern. What we are reading about is interpretation of someone’s behavior. What LL said during a critical situation, the FB she checked. This, yet, is not an indication of her involvement. FB behavior is subject to multiple models. If someone tells me that Lucy spends all her time on FB, I’d say, she could end in any part of it. Other situations, like: Some peculiarities in LL’s comments + a sharp rise in the deaths in the NICU at a given moment in time; or, a unit worker seeing LL directly attack an infant, might be more serious. Were there a hospital camera registering LL attacking the victim, that would be proof. But I don’t feel it existed.

There might be also a situation of LL confessing to a friend, a priest, own doctor, or someone else. This in itself is yet not a 100% proof, but could explain how the case started.

Now, about the accusations of injecting air during feeding. I remember feeding my own babies. How long would it sometimes take them to burp. And LL’s alleged victims were premature babies. With all her experience, could LL be merely negligent? Putting them in cribs too soon? Being too tired?

(What was per nurse load in NICU?)

Another situation. The accusation of injecting insulin. This should be easily traceable, what medications are drawn from the med cart. Likewise, who draws the drug, and at what time. The accusation can’t be based on hypoglycemia, it should be based on the evidence of a wrong person drawing a wrong drug at a wrong time. If that person was allowed to stay and work as a nurse after allegedly causing death by injecting insulin, then, something is amiss in the hospital.

Lots of questions. Mainly, postmortems not performed initially.
 
Going by what LL said in interviews with police, it's probably a good idea that she not take the stand. Imo
I’m coming at this from a different direction - what possible good could it do her to go on the stand?!

There is no real information she can offer over and above the medical experts’ view of what was the cause of all those babies’ deaths. She is not a medical expert herself and has no answers. She also can’t ‘prove’ a negative ie that she didn’t do anything and was an innocent bystander when these babies tragically died. If she is innocent then in each situation we have to assume the fragility of these children is the cause of their deaths - there is nothing she could say on the stand to add to that - she has no answers. She was merely doing her job but there is nothing she could say to illuminate the events.
 
I’m coming at this from a different direction - what possible good could it do her to go on the stand?!

There is no real information she can offer over and above the medical experts’ view of what was the cause of all those babies’ deaths. She is not a medical expert herself and has no answers. She also can’t ‘prove’ a negative ie that she didn’t do anything and was an innocent bystander when these babies tragically died. If she is innocent then in each situation we have to assume the fragility of these children is the cause of their deaths - there is nothing she could say on the stand to add to that - she has no answers. She was merely doing her job but there is nothing she could say to illuminate the events.
Maybe

Answer why she did Facebook searches
Why she took photo of sympathy card
Why she took photo of deceased
Why she was standing in poor light saying a child looked pale instead of going straight in the room as her colleague did ..just some examples where she really could make a difference
 
Maybe

Answer why she did Facebook searches
Why she took photo of sympathy card
Why she took photo of deceased
Why she was standing in poor light saying a child looked pale instead of going straight in the room as her colleague did ..just some examples where she really could make a difference
This event with the pale baby really sticks in my mind. Surely the jury can be set a reenactment of the event with the lighting and the same cot location with a doll and check if it’s possible to see from where Lucy was standing that the baby’s skin is pale.
 
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