UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #3

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Dcflag said:
Off the top of my head sky news updates reported it. It was a photo of the two deceased triplets In a cot together.
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Oh I got you. She took that photo with the parents permission to give to them. A lot of parents of babies who die very young or stillborns do that, so they remember what their little one looked like. It almost sounded like she was keeping photos of dead babies on her own mobile. Which would be completely different.
 
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gill1109 said:
@Tortoise, your green remarks are what an evil and actually guilty person might write. Here is an exercise. Imagine you were a good nurse, present at repeated dramatic unhappy incidents in a hospital, but did not knowingly do anything wrong. You become accused of terrible crimes and your whole life is devastated. You were happy being a single person with cats, you don’t want to bring children into this terrible world and you don’t want to get stuck in a relationship with one single person, but you love your work which gives (gave) you immense satisfaction. You are a good person. You love your parents and are devastated by what this whole affair is doing to them. Moreover you will be unable to care for them when they are old, which is kind of how you expected your life course. Now please write red explanatory comments which such a person might write.

I have no idea what kind of person LL is.
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I don't really understand what you've asked, but I will do my best to answer what I think you mean.

I have only reproduced the note as it was written, and I haven't said anything about guilt or innocence. You expressed that the green remarks are what a guilty person might write. I typed the words in green to show they were added around the right edge of the note, and distinguish them from the left edge text (so the sentences added later in that space didn't merge together).

The point of my post was to add my distinct impression (as someone who has done a whole lot of therapeutic writing myself) that this was not, IMO, a breakdown of someone with longstanding issues of depression or low self-esteem, but someone reacting to the position they are now in. And her one reference to the past (written in red to highlight it) was something she wanted to return to, so it was a time when she felt good, it wasn't a troubled past. Perhaps you have taken my words power/powerless and converted it to guilt or a confession of guilt, or something more sinister, but I'm only guessing.
 
bluetit said:
Oh I got you. She took that photo with the parents permission to give to them. A lot of parents of babies who die very young or stillborns do that, so they remember what their little one looked like. It almost sounded like she was keeping photos of dead babies on her own mobile. Which would be completely different.
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Presumably. Sky news live on tv said the photo was taken on LL personal mobile phone but I’ve not seen any written source for that. It’s certainly not been clarified in context.
 
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I can think of lots of reasons why it may not be a good reason for LL to take the stand. Even before the fact that it is in an extreme environment where the pressure, emotions and stress would be heightened, especially with charges she faces and the media attention.

I'm not saying LL has any mental health or Neurodivergence issues, but if she does (even temporary MH problems), these can make you speak in different ways, sometimes flat, monotone; which can sound cold and uncaring. Or they can make you feel attacked and being questioned/grilled and you can snap your replies back, which can sound short/aggressive.

For me personally, I have always had a problem with smiles/smirks at inappropriate times, when talking about subjects that should not not illicit that response. It doesn't always happen but I can't control it when it does and obviously to people that do not know me, it could be looked at as a sign of uncaring/cruelness, or if being accused of something; lies/guilt.

So if I was ever accused of a crime, I am not sure I could take the stand, even though I would want to because I know I could articulate my reasons why I am innocent and would want to clear my name and give my side of the story.
 
www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Friday, October 14

THE trial of Lucy Letby, the former Countess of Chester Hospital nurse accused of seven baby murders and attempting to murder 10 more, resumes today…
www.chesterstandard.co.uk www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Live trial starting now. I find Chester standard offers more detail so recommend people use this. They’re going on about how all the jury members have their own special iPad.
 
OK, so I've been very indecisive about joining in on this thread, but have followed from the start. I am a parent of a baby that died, stillborn, in a major UK, level 3 care, hospital. I have also been a participant in changing of laws surrounding maternity and bereavement care in my country, and the changing of policy in stillbirth and neonatal death in my local NHS and have, through my own experiences, then been able to help other bereaved parents in similar situations throughout the UK. Off my own back, I am a member of no charity or organization. I don't want to dox myself but going into any further detail might, so will leave my credentials there. But I have many years of experience.

I'm trying to reply regarding the photo of the two triplets on LL phone. In hospitals Ipads are provided to parents to enable them to take pictures and videos, they are then given access to these on a cloud etc, and they are removed from the device upon transfer of them to the parents There is absolutely no need or reason for a member of nursing staff to have a photograph, on their personal mobile phone. And IMO it's a major violation of that families privacy.

(I'm obviously not well versed in the format of this forum with regards to quoting ect so please excuse any errors until I get the hang of things)
 
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bluetit said:
Oh I got you. She took that photo with the parents permission to give to them. A lot of parents of babies who die very young or stillborns do that, so they remember what their little one looked like. It almost sounded like she was keeping photos of dead babies on her own mobile. Which would be completely different.
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When did she ask the parents permission to take the picture? The mom seemed distressed that LL walked in smiling and going on about how she had given the baby the first bath (alive) while she was bathing her dead child. It doesn't make sense that she would give Letby permission to take the picture.
 
Does anyone know if her phone was seized and kept after the first police arrest or was it later? I would be interested in knowing if the photos and other things were recovered via the cloud or in deleted folders or if they were still in their original place.
 
10:32am

The case is now resuming. The jury of 12 is now filing into court.

10:36am

The judge, Mr Justice Goss, has already said the jury members will not be able to use the iPads to access the internet, so culd not, for example, do any independent research in connection with the case.

10:41am

Each iPad is tailored to each juror with a bespoke, unique password, allowing the jurors to make notes without anyone else in court seeing them.

11:08am

The judge, Mr Justice Goss, says he is a 'first-timer' for using an iPad for a trial himself, adding it will save a lot of paperwork for the jury.

11:25am

We have had a short adjournment while the prosecution readies some paperwork it shall present shortly.

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Friday, October 14

THE trial of Lucy Letby, the former Countess of Chester Hospital nurse accused of seven baby murders and attempting to murder 10 more, resumes today…
www.chesterstandard.co.uk www.chesterstandard.co.uk
 
MsBetsy said:
When did she ask the parents permission to take the picture? The mom seemed distressed that LL walked in smiling and going on about how she had given the baby the first bath (alive) while she was bathing her dead child. It doesn't make sense that she would give Letby permission to take the picture.
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People have stated that (due to being newly bereaved) parents may be in a state of mind where memories can be blurred, I have found the opposite. Having been in a similar situation, and supported others through similar situations you remember a lot. Your brain tries to take in all that's happening, and you want to remember as much as possible from that time with your baby.

I recall a lot of things that happened to me, despite being up to my eyeballs on strong intravenous pain medication. A lot of things that were done very badly, and were put right so as to not happen to future bereaved. For the parents to state they recalled LLs words and demeanour, and that she made them uncomfortable is very notable, as I can imagine it would have been a stark contrast to the other nursing staff. To state something like that, IMO, could be either LL was so used to dealing with babies that had passed she became immune to it, or it could be as others have said she reacted in an inappropriate way due to being awkward in her general communications. Or it could be something else entirely. But a parents memories are something which can be very vivid, even years later.

(this was just a general reply to chat around this subject, which came to mind when I read your post, which I agree with. Permission should have been requested, and it would have been a very odd request as why would a member of staff want a picture of your children who had passed, I hope you understand where I'm coming from)
 
AnalyticalMind said:
OK, so I've been very indecisive about joining in on this thread, but have followed from the start. I am a parent of a baby that died, stillborn, in a major UK, level 3 care, hospital. I have also been a participant in changing of laws surrounding maternity and bereavement care in my country, and the changing of policy in stillbirth and neonatal death in my local NHS and have, through my own experiences, then been able to help other bereaved parents in similar situations throughout the UK. Off my own back, I am a member or no charity or organization. I don't want to dox myself but going into any further detail ail, so will leave my credentials there. But I have many years of experience.

I'm trying to reply regarding the photo of the two triplets on LL phone. In hospitals Ipads are provided to parents to enable them to take pictures and videos, they are then given access to these on a cloud etc, and they are removed from the device upon transfer of them to the parents There is absolutely no need or reason for a member of nursing staff to have a photograph, on their personal mobile phone. And IMO it's a major violation of that families privacy.

(I'm obviously not well versed in the format of this forum with regards to quoting ect so please excuse any errors until I get the hang of things)
Click to expand...
Also if you ever did takE a picture for a parent or patient, i would expect you to delete that.
 
MsBetsy said:
When did she ask the parents permission to take the picture? The mom seemed distressed that LL walked in smiling and going on about how she had given the baby the first bath (alive) while she was bathing her dead child. It doesn't make sense that she would give Letby permission to take the picture.
Click to expand...

I don’t think It was ever on her own phone. That would of been considered highly inappropriate. I’m trying to find the news story where it said it, but I’m pretty sure it was the two triplets that died.
 
MsBetsy said:
When did she ask the parents permission to take the picture?
Click to expand...

Eventually we will hear from the witnesses who present the oral evidence relating to the photo and other digital evidence recovered.

This may be a police officer/police staff member who carried out a forensic analysis of the LL's phone and other electronic devices

The officer who interviewed LL may be asked to read aloud the relevant part of the police interview regarding the photo.

The parent of the children will have provided a statement. This will either be read aloud to the court, or the parent may be called to give evidence in person.

Only after we have heard from all the relevant witnesses concerning the phone can we make an assessment of the FULL circumstances in which the photo was taken.

The press writing salacious headlines and people jumping on the bandwagon, making unevidenced accusations, does nothing to advance the case. It only undermines the clinical and thorough way in which the evidence will be examined and challenged so that everyone can make an informed judgement.

This applies to ALL the evidence in the case.
 
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ADMIN NOTE:

This thread is specifically dedicated to discussion of the trial for the accused Lucy Letby. Please discuss this trial without bringing other cases into the discussion. All that does is introduce support for speculation regarding guilt or innocence which is sub judice.
 
11:42am

Having been shown how to use iPads for electronic evidence, new documents are now being presented to jurors 'the old fashioned way' by way of paperwork, to add to their files.

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Friday, October 14

THE trial of Lucy Letby, the former Countess of Chester Hospital nurse accused of seven baby murders and attempting to murder 10 more, resumes today…
www.chesterstandard.co.uk www.chesterstandard.co.uk
 
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