UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #5

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arrogantcat said:
As someone who didn’t get the “normal social rules” manual that most people seem to have received at birth, i think about this a lot during cases like this.

I’ve definitely said the wrong thing to patients’ parents at work sometimes. I’ve also said the perfect thing sometimes, too, though. It’s hard to know what to say on emotionally fraught situations; hard to know what the other person needs to hear.

I’m sure I frequently do things other people consider odd or strange. If you went through my internet history and text messages looking for evidence of me being a weirdo it wouldn’t be hard to paint a sinister picture.

I suppose that’s why I find this type of evidence a little unnerving. It’s an uncomfortable reminder that the standard, neurotypical, mentally healthy mind is still held up as “acceptable normal” and all deviations from that are treated with suspicion.
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In my life, I twice ran into people who did a very unpleasant type of thing. Not anything violent, but something intensely disliked by the community and accompanied by unnoticeable, difficult to catch, lying.

Neither of them was non-neurotypical. Both were the opposite, emotional, social, gregarious. Maybe not super smart but definitely, convincing actors.

I can’t generalize about any trait. However, it would seem that for more atypicals that not, glibly lying is not easy? That it it rather uncomfortable to them, and would look awkward? Be easily noticed?

This is where the whole person I am trying to imagine isn’t wholesome. She is either blunt, overwhelmed and overworked, and is having no emotional energy to be nice, or, she is that lying, friendly snake, easily killing babies and assuming that no one ever catches it?
 
A very different outlook.
My second son was born via C-section, and when she delivered him, the OBGYN leaned towards me and said, “you have a son, and he is beautiful”.

Nice as it sounded, ten minutes later I saw a very different picture. They cut through his cheek, and had to suture him up, and on a baby’s cheek these long sutures in black sewing material really stood out.

I was not upset with her, it was one of these nights, several C-sections and they tried to help, there is so much pressure on OB. The scar is barely noticeable now.

But what is the use of saying something cooing and polite, knowing how the reality would look like to the mom?

So, parents may be very different in how they view it, too.
 
Charlot123 said:
This is where I would be interested in "character witnesses". To find out whether answering "yes, he is dying" was intense cruelty or just mere bluntness that is typical for some people, and maybe, was common for LL?

Maybe LL is not the master of consoling words? To add, in my observation, doctors and nurses working in ICUs don't necessarily enjoy talking to relatives. They work very hard but are often not the bearers of good news. How hard it is on them? The other side is also true, they don't get as many "thanks" and flowers as, say, surgeons, and the hardest work in medicine falls on ICU staff.

I don't know about the spirit of NICUs. Maybe slightly different, but still, they are ICUs. So if someone tells me that people working there are more straightforward, I won't be surprised. It doesn't mean that they don't cry afterwards, but perhaps it is hard to find the right words when they are losing a baby?

In general, they are very smart, capable and caring.

I don't know how this case will end, I am a tad split here.
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I think that you assessment of ICU nurses being "straightforward" is correct for most. Actually for most nurses working in an intensive area I would say that is the case. I have 33 years of experience in nursing 20 in Labour and Delivery. I can say in all honesty that I do tend to be very direct in a crisis. That being said though I show a great deal of compassion and empathy. Some of the things they are insinuating were said by LL are completely insensitive and inappropriate.
 
sleuthin4fun said:
I think that you assessment of ICU nurses being "straightforward" is correct for most. Actually for most nurses working in an intensive area I would say that is the case. I have 33 years of experience in nursing 20 in Labour and Delivery. I can say in all honesty that I do tend to be very direct in a crisis. That being said though I show a great deal of compassion and empathy. Some of the things they are insinuating were said by LL are completely insensitive and inappropriate.
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I hope you won't find it breaching of boundaries, @sleuthin4fun, if I say "thank you for your work"? I can only imagine how hard it could sometimes be.
 
arrogantcat said:
As someone who didn’t get the “normal social rules” manual that most people seem to have received at birth, i think about this a lot during cases like this.

I’ve definitely said the wrong thing to patients’ parents at work sometimes. I’ve also said the perfect thing sometimes, too, though. It’s hard to know what to say on emotionally fraught situations; hard to know what the other person needs to hear.

I’m sure I frequently do things other people consider odd or strange. If you went through my internet history and text messages looking for evidence of me being a weirdo it wouldn’t be hard to paint a sinister picture.

I suppose that’s why I find this type of evidence a little unnerving. It’s an uncomfortable reminder that the standard, neurotypical, mentally healthy mind is still held up as “acceptable normal” and all deviations from that are treated with suspicion.
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I don’t buy this. I trust the parents’ perceptions. There is a difference between the bog standard situation of a well-meaning person not knowing what to say. Versus a person behaving strangely due to trying and failing to fake empathy to parents whose baby has just died. I trust that the parents’ perceptions of LL’s inappropriate and callous behaviour were not them being intolerant of mere social awkwardness.

We all have a Facebook stalk now and then. In itself LL’s searches are not unusual. The timings of some of her searches however, paint a certain picture, and most importantly, the fact she was totally unable to explain her searches when questioned by police. She couldn’t even begin to think of an innocent explanation.
 
sleuthin4fun said:
I think that you assessment of ICU nurses being "straightforward" is correct for most. Actually for most nurses working in an intensive area I would say that is the case. I have 33 years of experience in nursing 20 in Labour and Delivery. I can say in all honesty that I do tend to be very direct in a crisis. That being said though I show a great deal of compassion and empathy. Some of the things they are insinuating were said by LL are completely insensitive and inappropriate.
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Thank you for your hard work. I was wondering if you could explain something relevant to the case for us? I was wondering exactly how much air would have to be pumped into a baby’s stomach to cause it to expand to the point where it compromises the lungs capacity to expand? Would this act take some time the same as inflating a football with a foot pump? Would it be observable on a ward or something a person could hide easily? I don’t know if that act is still considered an air embolus? Also how fatal would it be?
 
squish said:
I don’t buy this. I trust the parents’ perceptions. There is a difference between the bog standard situation of a well-meaning person not knowing what to say. Versus a person behaving strangely due to trying and failing to fake empathy to parents whose baby has just died. I trust that the parents’ perceptions of LL’s inappropriate and callous behaviour were not them being intolerant of mere social awkwardness.

We all have a Facebook stalk now and then. In itself LL’s searches are not unusual. The timings of some of her searches however, paint a certain picture, and most importantly, the fact she was totally unable to explain her searches when questioned by police. She couldn’t even begin to think of an innocent explanation.
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Yes, especially since child A, B and C died unexpectedly, within days of each other, it's hard to believe she didn't remember searching the parent's FB, among other things.

She denied having anything to do with child C other than being involved in resuscitation. She allegedly ignored the lead nurse's enforcement to care only for patients she was assigned to. Why?

Her reasoning for wanting to care for child C, according to the text to a colleague, was that it would help her 'well being' to see a living baby in the space previously occupied by a dead baby. Yet baby C died days later, from "deliberate introduction of air via the nasal tube," and had the same mottling and skin discoloration as the other babies.

All of the care providers seemed perplexed and concerned by the sudden collapses, yet LL stated to investigators that it was "fate" that killed three babies within days of each other?

I wouldn't think a nurse, or anyone in the medical field, would think 'fate' was the reason, when the victims had such unique symptoms and unexpected, sudden collapses.

But Letby texted that the deaths occurred under 'different circumstances.' I would like to hear more about what she felt was different about the deaths.

I also hope we hear from the mother who walked in as LL was 'attacking' her child. Her recollection differs from LL’s nurse notes and her account of events.
 
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I think Lucy is kind of saying that with three collapses and two deaths within days of each other and this being a statistical anomaly or otherwise unexplained that fate is why it happened. Just meant to be, kind of throwing your hands up and saying I don’t have an answer other than it was what it was supposed to be. In loo of a medical answer it must be what the gods have chosen. External to any persons zone of control.
 
Sweeper2000 said:
I think Lucy is kind of saying that with three collapses and two deaths within days of each other and this being a statistical anomaly or otherwise unexplained that fate is why it happened. Just meant to be, kind of throwing your hands up and saying I don’t have an answer other than it was what it was supposed to be. In loo of a medical answer it must be what the gods have chosen. External to any persons zone of control.
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Either that, or she knew why it happened but didn't want to say.

I think in her note she hinted about motive, when she said she did it on purpose because she wasn't good enough.
 
MsBetsy said:
I think in her note she hinted about motive, when she said she did it on purpose because she wasn't good enough.
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I don’t quite understand her logic in saying that. Maybe I’m missing something? If you’re not good enough to care for a baby, let’s say baby C, why don’t you just leave it to the nurse that was designated to look after it. Why allegedly kill the baby? Same with the others, why not quit being a nurse or ask to be assigned to the most healthy babies in room 3 instead of room 1. This thing she wrote really confuses me.
 
MsBetsy said:
Either that, or she knew why it happened but didn't want to say.

I think in her note she hinted about motive, when she said she did it on purpose because she wasn't good enough.
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Could be that but why assume the worst when lacking anything to suggest such a character? You might not want to get me started on that note again. I really take that sentence as a reference to her nursing standards not a reference to her own self esteem. Really to assume she would blame those babies for any of her own personal failings is way way out there, might be a first in the medical and law books if true. Serial killers and psychopaths don’t have low self esteem it’s normally the opposite due to the presence of narcissistic traits, high self esteem.

The badduns are a mix of three traits psychopathy being low emotionality and a callous nature, narcissism being high self worth or high self appraisal and selfishness, Machiavellian traits being the capacity to deceive and exploit others for personal gain. It’s called “the dark triad” and is text book clinical literature. Really not much to suggest the presence of these traits in Lucy aside from some very isolated incidences of borderline cold interactions. Genuinely the nurse who knew her since her uni placements would have picked up on these I believe and would have mentioned it when asked about Lucy’s character at work, it wouldn’t have come back as “a highly qualified and dedicated neonatal nurse” if it did it would have been said additionally to that assuming Lucy was those positives as a cover story.
 
Music2022 said:
I don’t quite understand her logic in saying that. Maybe I’m missing something? If you’re not good enough to care for a baby, let’s say baby C, why don’t you just leave it to the nurse that was designated to look after it. Why allegedly kill the baby? Same with the others, why not quit being a nurse or ask to be assigned to the most healthy babies in room 3 instead of room 1. This thing she wrote really confuses me.
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Think it has with a few people. If you look at the rest of the note it would point at someone writing stuff down and feeling very low self esteem. “She’s isn’t good enough to deliver the necessary care” not “I blame them for my own perceived inadequacy”. I genuinely believe the presence of the words “on purpose” changes the meaning of the note. Those words wouldn’t be present in a straight confession which would be “I killed them because I’m not good enough” there is no doubt in those words. It’s a confession and a reason. Motive and confession. You might come to that conclusion if you acknowledge that Lucy was talking to herself in which case she doesn’t need to add the “on purpose” as she would have no doubt as to whether or not it was done deliberately. She wouldn’t need to clarify to herself that she had done it deliberately. I think.

Edit. Read the note as if it was you who wrote it to yourself and then it becomes clear.
 
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MsBetsy said:
Either that, or she knew why it happened but didn't want to say.

I think in her note she hinted about motive, when she said she did it on purpose because she wasn't good enough 100%
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Sweeper2000 said:
Think it has with a few people. If you look at the rest of the note it would point at someone writing stuff down and feeling very low self esteem. “She’s isn’t good enough to deliver the necessary care” not “I blame them for my own perceived inadequacy”. I genuinely believe the presence of the words “on purpose” changes the meaning of the note. Those words wouldn’t be present in a straight confession which would be “I killed them because I’m not good enough” there is no doubt in those words. It’s a confession and a reason. Motive and confession. You might come to that conclusion if you acknowledge that Lucy was talking to herself in which case she doesn’t need to add the “on purpose” as she would have no doubt as to whether or not it was done deliberately. She wouldn’t need to clarify to herself that she had done it deliberately. I think.
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So much for not mentioning the note again :/
 
I’m not going to push it but will state my opinion if it provides another with information that might help elucidate any confusion or ponderance they have about something. Many people have raised issue with that note suggesting that other interpretations are possible and no one else has provided an alternative potential meaning to it other than taking it at face value. As far as I know.
 
Music2022 said:
I don’t quite understand her logic in saying that. Maybe I’m missing something? If you’re not good enough to care for a baby, let’s say baby C, why don’t you just leave it to the nurse that was designated to look after it. Why allegedly kill the baby? Same with the others, why not quit being a nurse or ask to be assigned to the most healthy babies in room 3 instead of room 1. This thing she wrote really confuses me.
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This can be said about anyone. Why do some people do murder-suicide? Why kill innocent people if you alone want to die?
 
Sweeper2000 said:
I’m not going to push it but will state my opinion if it provides another with information that might help elucidate any confusion or ponderance they have about something. Many people have raised issue with that note suggesting that other interpretations are possible and no one else has provided an alternative potential meaning to it other than taking it at face value. As far as I know.
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Maybe give it a rest until the note comes back up in evidence? You seem to really obsess over this note and I can't understand why, when there are so many other things currently being discussed in the case.
 
The trial has now resumed, with evidence being heard in the case of Child C.

The first witness to give evidence today is Joanne Williams, who previously gave evidence, in an agreed evidence statement, for the case of Child A and Child B.

The court is reminded she was a neonatal unit nurse in June 2015

10:10am

Mrs Williams recalls she was the designated nurse for Child C on June 13, and had cared for him prior to that day.
She said that particular day shift was 'not too busy'.
She recalls Child C was small and premature, and weighed 800g at birth.

10:14am

A nursing note by Mrs Williams is presented to the court, written retrospectively at 4.19pm on June 13, shows Child C was on NCPAP with 23-26% oxygen - "a minimal amount of oxygen".
Mrs Williams said that was "a good sign".
A blood gas reading was "very good" at 9am, but Child C was noted to be "very unsettled and fractious", which Ms Williams tells the court was not that uncommon for a baby of his size.
The note adds Child C was allowed to be taken off CPAP to have skin-to-skin contact with mum.
Mrs Williams says such contact is "extremely powerful" for a new-born baby and is "really beneficial" for them. The note adds Child C "calmed down straight away while on mummy, just required some facial [oxygen] while out. No signs of increased work of breathing".
 
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