UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #6

[Music2022]

What are they suggesting? One injection at 1:25? Or two more injections later on? There was more time between treatment and collapse in the second and third collapses, more than 5mins.

 

[JosieJo]

3:11pm

A text message sent from Lucy Letby to a colleague said, at 8.36am: "We had such a rubbish night.
"Our job is just far too sad sometimes."
The colleague replied: "No what happened?"
Letby: "We lost [Child D]."
The colleague: "What!!!! But she was improving. What happened?
"Wanna chat? I can't believe you were on again. You are having such a tough time."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, November 3

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[merrypason]

Just noticed something in the messages. Her use of the term 'overwhelming sepsis'

"Letby refers to Child D being "messed about a couple of times" and refers to a rash that "looked like overwhelming sepsis"

A week before this, when she was messaging her colleague about child C this was the exchange:

Letby: "I was struggling to accept what happened to [Child A], now we have lost [Child C] overnight and it's all a bit much."

The colleague replies: "It will be but it does happen to these babies unfortunately."

"It's a very sad part of our job."

The colleague recalls a baby who had previously died in the neonatal unit, but had "overwhelming sepsis" so "nothing would have saved that baby".

It's very odd that she loses child A and C, her colleague then tells her about a baby who died who has 'overwhelming sepsis.

She then loses a baby D, an investigation is planned and she tells colleagues baby D died of 'overwhelming sepsis'.

Is that a commonly used medical way to describe sepsis - overwhelming? Because I'm wondering if that's why she picked child D, her colleague gave her the idea the week before.

MOO

 

[JosieJo]

3:15pm

Letby refers to Child D being "messed about a couple of times" and refers to a rash that "looked like overwheming sepsis".
She adds that two members of staff said the circumstances "would be investigated".
The colelague replies: "Dad was very anxious all day." and adds, in relation to the investigation, "What the delay in treatment?"
Letby replies: "Just overall looking into the case.
"And reviewing what antibiotics she was on if sepsis."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, November 3

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Sundial]

What are they suggesting? One injection at 1:25? Or two more injections later on? There was more time between treatment and collapse in the second and third collapses, more than 5mins.

I read it as two more injections later on; just a little stunned really (IMO) there appears to be something which happens not long after these 3 events of medications. I can’t get my head round it. Even with the comments made to colleagues about “sepsis” I haven’t read anything from today which even suggested that. Unless I’ve completely missed it?

 

[JosieJo]

I would have thought that if sepsis the rash would not have appeared so suddenly

 

[Sundial]

"Wanna chat? I can't believe you were on again. You are having such a tough time."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, November 3

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

This bit here; fourth child, where her colleague says “I can’t believe you were on again”.. I’m just sat here thinking the same thing tbh. The case with child D, I cannot make any sense of it. It will be interesting to hear the statements from doctors and other reports.

 

[JosieJo]

3:15pm

Letby refers to Child D being "messed about a couple of times" and refers to a rash that "looked like overwheming sepsis".
She adds that two members of staff said the circumstances "would be investigated".
The colelague replies: "Dad was very anxious all day." and adds, in relation to the investigation, "What the delay in treatment?"
Letby replies: "Just overall looking into the case.
"And reviewing what antibiotics she was on if sepsis."

3:31pm

The colleague says Child D "was behaving septic".
She adds, to Letby: "Oh hun, you need a break."
Letby said, in her response: "But it's part of the job and it's hard for everyone."
The colleague responds: "Yes but you have had it all recently."
Letby, in her response, says: "Hmm well it's happened and that is it, got to carry on..." before referring to her planned time off.
The conversation then discusses staffing arrangements, and the difficulties of the job, before noting an instance of a happier occasion on the unit.
Letby says: "How do such sick babies get through and others get to [die] so unexpectedly?"
Her colleague, in her response, says: "We just don't have magic wands..."
The colleague refers to what Child D looked like in their care.
Letby replies: "I think there is an element of fate involved. There is a reason for everything."

3:38pm

The colleague adds: "It's important to remember that a death is not a failure," and says Letby is "an excellent nurse."
Letby, in her response, accepts the need to take positives from the job, but it's "just so sad to watch what families go through."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, November 3

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Sundial]

I would have thought that if sepsis the rash would not have appeared so suddenly

It can depend (I believe), but I also wonder whether it could be an allergic reaction to something perhaps.. but that doesn’t explain the similar discolouration in the previous cases either. I’m struggling to actually make sense of it (logically) and even more so when taking into account of the conversation to colleague by message- and this is the fourth child now in strikingly similar circumstances. I’m trying to find a logical explanation/make sense of it and I just can’t tbh.

 

[merrypason]

I read it as two more injections later on; just a little stunned really (IMO) there appears to be something which happens not long after these 3 events of medications. I can’t get my head round it. Even with the comments made to colleagues about “sepsis” I haven’t read anything from today which even suggested that. Unless I’ve completely missed it?

Letby replies: "Just overall looking into the case.

"And reviewing what antibiotics she was on if sepsis

This has made me feel uncomfortable.

Because there was no mention on the nursing notes of sepsis once baby was brought into ITU. She didn't note it either anywhere was was doing drip infusions etc. Surely you'd say or note something this big?

Why was she so convinced it was? When no doctor mentioned it? And it feels like she was setting up the reasoning as "overwhelming sepsis" when she found out there was an investigation.

 

[MsBetsy]

Just noticed something in the messages. Her use of the term 'overwhelming sepsis'

"Letby refers to Child D being "messed about a couple of times" and refers to a rash that "looked like overwhelming sepsis"

A week before this, when she was messaging her colleague about child C this was the exchange:

Letby: "I was struggling to accept what happened to [Child A], now we have lost [Child C] overnight and it's all a bit much."

The colleague replies: "It will be but it does happen to these babies unfortunately."

"It's a very sad part of our job."

The colleague recalls a baby who had previously died in the neonatal unit, but had "overwhelming sepsis" so "nothing would have saved that baby".

It's very odd that she loses child A and C, her colleague then tells her about a baby who died who has 'overwhelming sepsis.

She then loses a baby D, an investigation is planned and she tells colleagues baby D died of 'overwhelming sepsis'.

Is that a commonly used medical way to describe sepsis - overwhelming? Because I'm wondering if that's why she picked child D, her colleague gave her the idea the week before.

MOO

Good catch! I don't know if "overwhelming sepsis" is a term used often, but it would seem LL did borrow it from her colleague. I probably would've said just sepsis, but I'm not a nurse.

 

[kittythehare]

Just noticed something in the messages. Her use of the term 'overwhelming sepsis'

"Letby refers to Child D being "messed about a couple of times" and refers to a rash that "looked like overwhelming sepsis"

A week before this, when she was messaging her colleague about child C this was the exchange:

Letby: "I was struggling to accept what happened to [Child A], now we have lost [Child C] overnight and it's all a bit much."

The colleague replies: "It will be but it does happen to these babies unfortunately."

"It's a very sad part of our job."

The colleague recalls a baby who had previously died in the neonatal unit, but had "overwhelming sepsis" so "nothing would have saved that baby".

It's very odd that she loses child A and C, her colleague then tells her about a baby who died who has 'overwhelming sepsis.

She then loses a baby D, an investigation is planned and she tells colleagues baby D died of 'overwhelming sepsis'.

Is that a commonly used medical way to describe sepsis - overwhelming? Because I'm wondering if that's why she picked child D, her colleague gave her the idea the week before.

MOO

No.
Sepsis is by it's nature overwhelming.

Sepsis is a person's overwhelming or impaired whole-body immune response to an insult—an infection or an injury to the body, or something else that provokes such a response. It's a serious condition and a leading cause of death in hospitals. It's also a main reason why people are readmitted to the hospital

National Institute of General Medical Sciences

NIGMS supports basic research to understand biological processes and lay the foundation for advances in disease diagnosis, treatment, and prevention.

nigms.nih.gov

 

[merrypason]

Also didn't she recognise the discolouration in her other patients? And knows they didn't die of sepsis. So why this one?

 

[kittythehare]

3:15pm

Letby refers to Child D being "messed about a couple of times" and refers to a rash that "looked like overwheming sepsis".
She adds that two members of staff said the circumstances "would be investigated".
The colelague replies: "Dad was very anxious all day." and adds, in relation to the investigation, "What the delay in treatment?"
Letby replies: "Just overall looking into the case.
"And reviewing what antibiotics she was on if sepsis."

3:31pm

The colleague says Child D "was behaving septic".
She adds, to Letby: "Oh hun, you need a break."
Letby said, in her response: "But it's part of the job and it's hard for everyone."
The colleague responds: "Yes but you have had it all recently."
Letby, in her response, says: "Hmm well it's happened and that is it, got to carry on..." before referring to her planned time off.
The conversation then discusses staffing arrangements, and the difficulties of the job, before noting an instance of a happier occasion on the unit.
Letby says: "How do such sick babies get through and others get to [die] so unexpectedly?"
Her colleague, in her response, says: "We just don't have magic wands..."
The colleague refers to what Child D looked like in their care.
Letby replies: "I think there is an element of fate involved. There is a reason for everything."

3:38pm

The colleague adds: "It's important to remember that a death is not a failure," and says Letby is "an excellent nurse."
Letby, in her response, accepts the need to take positives from the job, but it's "just so sad to watch what families go through."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, November 3

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Fate.

 

[Tortoise]

Tweets from start of the day -

https://twitter.com/MerseyHack

The jury is hearing evidence from the mother of Child D. The mum is in the witness box. A reminder - for legal reasons we can’t identify the alleged victims or their families. @BBCNWT 1.30

Child D’s mum explains that her waters broke early but there were delays at the Countess of Chester Hospital in deciding what to do. “I didn’t feel right. The baby didn’t seem to be moving as well. I was concerned for infection because I hadn’t been given antibiotics.”

Eventually Child D was delivered by C-section. “She seemed very lifeless. She didn’t scream. There was no sound. Everything was quiet in the room.” says D’s mum.

D’s mum continued to have concerns when baby brought to her after delivery: “She was quite limp… she seemed to struggle to breathe.” A doctor told the mum the baby’s condition was due to being delivered by C section, but mum was not reassured.

Child D was taken to the neonatal unit. Next day 21/6/15 was Father’s Day. Mum was told D was struggling to breathe and wasn’t feeding, but she says staff didn’t seem too worried at that stage.

D was on CPAP (continuous positive airway pressure) but every time they tried to take her off it she crashed. But staff didn’t seem worried “ as she was a good sized baby. They didn’t seem overly concerned. She was poorly but making good progress.” says mum.

The jury is shown a plan of the neonatal unit drawn by D’s mum showing where her baby was in the unit at the Countess of #Chester.

“[A doctor] promised me I would be able to hold her and feed her the next day.” But the next morning mum was called to the unit because D was really ill. She saw the same doctor trying to resuscitate D. “We were just standing there watching [D] die.”

Mum tells jury about a time before D died when Lucy #Letby was the only nurse in the room when she and her husband went to see D. Mum says Ms Letby was “sort of hovering by the incubator but not doing much. She sort of just was watching us.”

Ben Myers KC for Miss Letby asks D’s mum if it could have been a different nurse by the incubator on that occasion. “I don’t think so.” She agrees she knows it was Ms Letby because she saw her picture in the paper.

The judge asks Mr Myers if it’s disputed that the nurse on that occasion was Ms Letby, and Mr Myers says it is.

In a statement read to court, D’s father says “We were never given the impression that [her] condition was life threatening. It never crossed my mind that she was in danger of dying. When she died were just not prepared for it.”

In a What’s App message to a colleague after D died Lucy Letby said “We had such a rubbish night. Our job is just far too sad sometimes.” And later to same colleague “We lost [D].”

The colleague replied “What ! But she was improving, what happened ?” “I can’t believe you were on again. You are having such a hard time.”

3 days after Child D died Lucy Letby searched for the names of her parents on Facebook.

4 days after D died Ms Letby messaged a colleague saying “I can’t talk about it [the deaths at the unit]. I can’t stop crying. I just need to get it out of my system.”

In October 2015 (4 months after D died) Lucy Letby made a Facebook search for the name of the baby’s father on a Saturday tea time.

 

[MsBetsy]

It can depend (I believe), but I also wonder whether it could be an allergic reaction to something perhaps.. but that doesn’t explain the similar discolouration in the previous cases either. I’m struggling to actually make sense of it (logically) and even more so when taking into account of the conversation to colleague by message- and this is the fourth child now in strikingly similar circumstances. I’m trying to find a logical explanation/make sense of it and I just can’t tbh.

I don't think the purplish mottling was a rash, but more like a skin discoloration. It came and went in seconds, whereas a rash tends to gradually appear or be present for
longer, like an allergic reaction.

 

[Sundial]

Letby replies: "Just overall looking into the case.

"And reviewing what antibiotics she was on if sepsis

This has made me feel uncomfortable.

Because there was no mention on the nursing notes of sepsis once baby was brought into ITU. She didn't note it either anywhere was was doing drip infusions etc. Surely you'd say or note something this big?

Why was she so convinced it was? When no doctor mentioned it? And it feels like she was setting up the reasoning as "overwhelming sepsis" when she found out there was an investigation.

I agree, I’ve gone back through the threads from today thinking I’ve missed it.. I cannot make sense of it. Im finding it difficult to rationalise other possibilities but can’t see any sort of reference to what she suggested via message exchange. It just seems so random/out of place with the rest of the notes and care provided.

 

[merrypason]

Fate.

That text is the only time I've considered that maybe this was God complex. I don't know - if a lot of my patients died in a short span, I'd be trying to understand what could have gone wrong with their care - like all the other nurses and doctors were trying to understand. Not talking about fate. I can understand thinking it in her personal life but when you're in the job of saving lives, saying it about patients feels odd.

Also this sentence bothers me

"How do such sick babies get through and others get to [die] so unexpectedly?"

What does it mean 'get to'? 'Getting to do something' is normally something people want to do right? You wouldn't say, "you're so unlucky you get to go to prison". Why do the babies 'get to' die? Does she think they want that? Just odd.

 

[Sundial]

Also didn't she recognise the discolouration in her other patients? And knows they didn't die of sepsis. So why this one?

I’m surprised she wasn’t questioning any kind of odd link between cases A-D herself, I find it difficult to understand why she wasn’t questioning it/worried. Four cases in already and i just see some kind of brush off about it in the discussion with the colleague. If I was having that kind of conversation with my colleague after 4 similar deaths alone I would start to raise questions, it’s quite uncomfortable IMO

 

[kittythehare]

That text is the only time I've considered that maybe this was God complex. I don't know - if a lot of my patients died in a short span, I'd be trying to understand what could have gone wrong with their care - like all the other nurses and doctors were trying to understand. Not talking about fate. I can understand thinking it in her personal life but when you're in the job of saving lives, saying it about patients feels odd.

Also this sentence bothers me

"How do such sick babies get through and others get to [die] so unexpectedly?"

What does it mean 'get to'? 'Getting to do something' is normally something people want to do right? You wouldn't say, "you're so unlucky you get to go to prison". Why do the babies 'get to' die? Does she think they want that? Just odd.

I agree.
Very odd wording.
'Rubbish night' also an 'unusual' choice of words.