UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #9

[Sweeper2000]

i would assume in an individual with elevated levels of narcissism and or psychopathy quite an overblown response to the recent negative comments in the case. Narcs tend to have an inflated ego and don’t take insults Quietly In fact you can expect strong reactions to perceived slight. She would also take some offence at the accusations which we don’t see like saying something like “how dare they accuse me” or “these idiots think I have done something wrong which is impossible“. You won’t ever catch a narc saying they are not good enough quite the opposite. in fact she mediates her anger and simply states “quite upsetting” Not what one could expect. I would also thing those words are an appeal to emotion, shes stating she is hurt by them.

If she was psychopathic you could also expect direct confrontation due to fearlessness present in that personality she also wouldn’t state “I haven’t done anything wrong” which reading it I would presume is a reference to a conscience orientated understanding of bad and good related to the rules of society something psycopaths don’t care about. None of that note speaks of someone who just doesn’t care.

that note gives direct reference to a police “investigation“ and obviously the person writing it is feeling very sorry for themselves. It is also one note in a batch of notes many of which are said to claim innocence just the prosecution or defence haven’t presented them as of yet.

the flourish at the end of the note is “I am evil, I did this” not hate. Again looking at the note the end is dramatic I can’t seem to find good reason to think it is sincere.

jmo

 

[Kemug]

I wonder what LL's IQ is? Because I find that often her choice of a word is a little (just a little) childish. eg "awful", "horrible" and "rubbish." JMO

 

[JosieJo]

The part of the note that interests me is ...

I killed them on purpose because I'm not good enough to care for them

At the beginning of the timeline we have LL getting peeved that she wasn't being put in room 1 with the sickest children

This week we heard there was some bitchiness going on and something bubbling under the surface around her capability??

A band 6 neonatal nurse with additional neonatal courses / training should not have any problems looking after the sickest babies.

 

[Sweeper2000]

The part of the note that interests me is ...

I killed them on purpose because I'm not good enough to care for them

At the beginning of the timeline we have LL getting peeved that she wasn't being put in room 1 with the sickest children

This week we heard there was some bitchiness going on and something bubbling under the surface around her capability??

A band 6 neonatal nurse with additional neonatal courses / training should not have any problems looking after the sickest babies.

I really do think that quote relates to her capacity as a nurse.
I believe she wanted to be in room one in that instance to help her overcome the trauma involved but that’s assuming she is telling the truth.

she might not have any problems in regards to the care given in the professional sense but she may have interpersonal difficulties. Would seem so looking at the evidence. If she is lacking confidence interpersonally that may impact her approach to the social side of the job so maybe her problems aren’t related to her as a nurse indeed through all accounts given her expertise isn’t questioned at all. That does go against the idea she doesn’t know what an air embolism is Though. She may have been referring to the mechanism of action of an air embolism though but really not sure on that.

im wondering if this recent bitchiness isn’t the first murmurings about LL and the deaths happening on the night shifts, the first rumours so to speak. Would make sense and fit with the timeline in a few cases from now they put her on the day shifts. from here on in I’m going to be paying very close attention to any signs that LL is proactively looking out for signs that people suspected her of wrongdoing and looks to alter available information in her favour.

the next case has that as a potential As presented by the prosecution.

“Mr Johnson said: 'When she made the requisite note, Letby reversed the concern, saying that it was Baby I's mother who had raised an issue about her abdomen, writing 'Mum feels it is more distended to yesterday and that I is quiet…not on monitor but nil increased work of breathing'.

He asked the jury: 'Was it Lucy Letby trying to cover for what she was going to do?' “

Lucy Letby 'tried to kill baby girl four times before succeeding'

The 32-year-old allegedly killed five boys and two girls, and faces a total of 22 charges of both murder and attempted murder involving 17 babies.

www.dailymail.co.uk

i think it’s a weak proposition, presumably if giving herself the cover to attack in the notes she would sooner say I ll think this baby has a more distended abdomen showing she
followed the guidelines. It’s also true that it is far from a reversal as alleged by the prosecution, LL didn’t disagree with it.

@mart321

i get it now, stating it was the mother’s opinion that the belly was more distended might be taken less seriously than herself or other staffs opinions. It was Lucy letby s original concern about the baby and said the baby would be reviewed by a doctor. Mums not the health care worker here so the prosecution may be saying if LL put it down it would be seen more seriously and acted on. Still a weak proposition here and I think the prosecution knows it.

“According to Baby I's mother, Letby expressed some concern to her and indicated that the infant would be reviewed by a doctor.

Mr Johnson said: 'When she made the requisite note, Letby reversed the concern, saying that it was Baby I's mother who had raised an issue about her abdomen, writing 'Mum feels it is more distended to yesterday and that I is quiet…not on monitor but nil increased work of breathing'.

He asked the jury: 'Was it Lucy Letby trying to cover for what she was going to do?' “

Lucy Letby was 'trying to kill baby when consultant walked in on her'

Dr Ravi Jayaram, a paediatric consultant, had helped deliver child K, who was born at 25 weeks on February 17 2016 at the Countess of Chester Hospital.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[mart321]

i would assume in an individual with elevated levels of narcissism and or psychopathy quite an overblown response to the recent negative comments in the case. Narcs tend to have an inflated ego and don’t take insults Quietly In fact you can expect strong reactions to perceived slight. She would also take some offence at the accusations which we don’t see like saying something like “how dare they accuse me” or “these idiots think I have done something wrong which is impossible“. You won’t ever catch a narc saying they are not good enough quite the opposite. in fact she mediates her anger and simply states “quite upsetting” Not what one could expect. I would also thing those words are an appeal to emotion, shes stating she is hurt by them.

If she was psychopathic you could also expect direct confrontation due to fearlessness present in that personality she also wouldn’t state “I haven’t done anything wrong” which reading it I would presume is a reference to a conscience orientated understanding of bad and good related to the rules of society something psycopaths don’t care about. None of that note speaks of someone who just doesn’t care.

that note gives direct reference to a police “investigation“ and obviously the person writing it is feeling very sorry for themselves. It is also one note in a batch of notes many of which are said to claim innocence just the prosecution or defence haven’t presented them as of yet.

the flourish at the end of the note is “I am evil, I did this” not hate. Again looking at the note the end is dramatic I can’t seem to find good reason to think it is sincere.

jmo

Have to disagree with most of this. I refer back to tortoises recent post on this letter for imo , a much better analysis.

I think your opinion is quite basic and just
wrong, as exampled by your use of "she wouldn't say this" and "she would do this"

This analysis is both simple and lacking in any real depth. Your opinions of what "she would do" are only your opinion and do not have real truth to them.

The traits that you speak of do not give you authority to decide what LL would write if she was that way inclined. Its just complete speculation.

 

[mart321]

I really do think that quote relates to her capacity as a nurse.
I believe she wanted to be in room one in that instance to help her overcome the trauma involved but that’s assuming she is telling the truth.

she might not have any problems in regards to the care given in the professional sense but she may have interpersonal difficulties. Would seem so looking at the evidence. If she is lacking confidence interpersonally that may impact her approach to the social side of the job so maybe her problems aren’t related to her as a nurse indeed through all accounts given her expertise isn’t questioned at all. That does go against the idea she doesn’t know what an air embolism is Though. She may have been referring to the mechanism of action of an air embolism though but really not sure on that.

im wondering if this recent bitchiness isn’t the first murmurings about LL and the deaths happening on the night shifts, the first rumours so to speak. Would make sense and fit with the timeline in a few cases from now they put her on the day shifts. from here on in I’m going to be paying very close attention to any signs that LL is proactively looking out for signs that people suspected her of wrongdoing and looks to alter available information in her favour.

the next case has that as a potential As presented by the prosecution.

“Mr Johnson said: 'When she made the requisite note, Letby reversed the concern, saying that it was Baby I's mother who had raised an issue about her abdomen, writing 'Mum feels it is more distended to yesterday and that I is quiet…not on monitor but nil increased work of breathing'.

He asked the jury: 'Was it Lucy Letby trying to cover for what she was going to do?' “

Lucy Letby 'tried to kill baby girl four times before succeeding'

The 32-year-old allegedly killed five boys and two girls, and faces a total of 22 charges of both murder and attempted murder involving 17 babies.

www.dailymail.co.uk

i think it’s a weak proposition, presumably if giving herself the cover to attack in the notes she would sooner say I ll think this baby has a more distended abdomen showing she
followed the guidelines. It’s also true that it is far from a reversal as alleged by the prosecution, LL didn’t disagree with it.

@mart321

i get it now, stating it was the mother’s opinion that the belly was more distended might be taken less seriously than herself or other staffs opinions. It was Lucy letby s original concern about the baby and said the baby would be reviewed by a doctor. Mums not the health care worker here so the prosecution may be saying if LL put it down it would be seen more seriously and acted on. Still a weak proposition here and I think the prosecution knows it.

“According to Baby I's mother, Letby expressed some concern to her and indicated that the infant would be reviewed by a doctor.

Mr Johnson said: 'When she made the requisite note, Letby reversed the concern, saying that it was Baby I's mother who had raised an issue about her abdomen, writing 'Mum feels it is more distended to yesterday and that I is quiet…not on monitor but nil increased work of breathing'.

He asked the jury: 'Was it Lucy Letby trying to cover for what she was going to do?' “

Lucy Letby was 'trying to kill baby when consultant walked in on her'

Dr Ravi Jayaram, a paediatric consultant, had helped deliver child K, who was born at 25 weeks on February 17 2016 at the Countess of Chester Hospital.

www.dailymail.co.uk

I get what you are saying, but if she wanted it to be taken less seriously then why would she initially bring it to the mother's attention in the first place. The prosecution say she brought it to the mother's attention and then in the notes, said it was the other way around.

We need to know more about this. By doing this, one way or the other it is being brought to the attention of the doctors , so that doesn't fit with trying to minimize it. If she had said nothing to the mother then would it have come to attention at all?

 

[Sweeper2000]

To say the quote “I’m not good enough“ is a reference to her morale character actually means she believes she feels That is something she is lacking And presumably wants which is absurd.

 

[katydid23]

I really do think that quote relates to her capacity as a nurse.

Why would that quote relate to her capacity as a nurse? She says explicitly " I killed them on purpose ----because I'm not good enough to care for them.

How would her poor nursing skills equate to ' I killed them on purpose?'

I believe she wanted to be in room one in that instance to help her overcome the trauma involved but that’s assuming she is telling the truth.

Have you wondered WHY she was taken out of room 1 and placed on the day shift at that time?

After all that happened to those tortured babies and those grieving families, her desire to be in room 1 was to soothe her trauma? Did she believe she was the victim here?

she might not have any problems in regards to the care given in the professional sense but she may have interpersonal difficulties. Would seem so looking at the evidence. If she is lacking confidence interpersonally that may impact her approach to the social side of the job so maybe her problems aren’t related to her as a nurse indeed through all accounts given her expertise isn’t questioned at all. That does go against the idea she doesn’t know what an air embolism is Though. She may have been referring to the mechanism of action of an air embolism though but really not sure on that.

She knew exactly what an air embolism was, IMO. How could she not?

I think it's possible she lied as a defense mechanism, and wanted to sound innocent and not dangerous. But it makes no sense that she would be a band 6 nurse and not know what that is.

im wondering if this recent bitchiness isn’t the first murmurings about LL and the deaths happening on the night shifts, the first rumours so to speak.

Why do you think the co-workers would begin having those suspicious thoughts about LL and the recent spike in collapses?

Could it be because so many of these babies had been tended to by LL just moments before they unexpectedly collapsed?

Or maybe because she had been moved to the day shift because of 'her run of bad luck' on the night shift? And now babies are collapsing on the day shift all of a sudden?

Would make sense and fit with the timeline in a few cases from now they put her on the day shifts. from here on in I’m going to be paying very close attention to any signs that LL is proactively looking out for signs that people suspected her of wrongdoing and looks to alter available information in her favour.

I think you will find some of those signs coming up soon in next cases.

the next case has that as a potential As presented by the prosecution.

“Mr Johnson said: 'When she made the requisite note, Letby reversed the concern, saying that it was Baby I's mother who had raised an issue about her abdomen, writing 'Mum feels it is more distended to yesterday and that I is quiet…not on monitor but nil increased work of breathing'.

He asked the jury: 'Was it Lucy Letby trying to cover for what she was going to do?' “

Lucy Letby 'tried to kill baby girl four times before succeeding'

The 32-year-old allegedly killed five boys and two girls, and faces a total of 22 charges of both murder and attempted murder involving 17 babies.

www.dailymail.co.uk

i think it’s a weak proposition, presumably if giving herself the cover to attack in the notes she would sooner say I ll think this baby has a more distended abdomen showing she
followed the guidelines. It’s also true that it is far from a reversal as alleged by the prosecution, LL didn’t disagree with it.

check out this alleged scenario:

LL fed the sleeping baby 35mls of expressed breast milk via the NGT at 4pm. Half an hour later an emergency 'crash call' was put out.

Baby I had vomited, desaturated, her heart rate had dropped and she was struggling to breath. Her airway had to be cleared and she was given breathing support before being moved to Room 1.

X-rays revealed a massive amount of gas in her stomach and bowel, and her lungs appeared 'squashed' and of small volume. It was the prosecution case that this air had been injected into the baby's stomach.

The crisis passed, but medical notes record that Letby adjusted the infant's glucose infusion and gave her an injection of saline.

'Within moments, Baby I deteriorated again. However, as I have said, Baby I was resilient and overnight her condition improved'.

Thereafter the baby enjoyed a period of such stability that she did not even need a monitor.

@mart321

i get it now, stating it was the mother’s opinion that the belly was more distended might be taken less seriously than herself or other staffs opinions. It was Lucy letby s original concern about the baby and said the baby would be reviewed by a doctor. Mums not the health care worker here so the prosecution may be saying if LL put it down it would be seen more seriously and acted on. Still a weak proposition here and I think the prosecution knows it.

“According to Baby I's mother, Letby expressed some concern to her and indicated that the infant would be reviewed by a doctor.

Mr Johnson said: 'When she made the requisite note, Letby reversed the concern, saying that it was Baby I's mother who had raised an issue about her abdomen, writing 'Mum feels it is more distended to yesterday and that I is quiet…not on monitor but nil increased work of breathing'.

He asked the jury: 'Was it Lucy Letby trying to cover for what she was going to do?' “

Lucy Letby was 'trying to kill baby when consultant walked in on her'

Dr Ravi Jayaram, a paediatric consultant, had helped deliver child K, who was born at 25 weeks on February 17 2016 at the Countess of Chester Hospital.

www.dailymail.co.uk

After the previous collapse, Baby I had been in another nurse's care and she greatly improved. She ws not even being monitored anymore because she was so stable. But then look what allegedly happened next:

In the early hours of October 13, Baby I was well and being bottle-fed every four hours. At about 3am her designated nurse briefly left the room and asked Letby and another colleague to listen out for the infant.

Mr Johnson told the court: 'When she returned to Room 2, at about 3.20am, Lucy Letby was stood in the doorway. The room was darkened because it was night time. But as soon as she came in Lucy Letby told her Baby I looked pale.

'When the other nurse turned on the light, she saw that Baby I appeared at the point of death and was not breathing.

'When she reconsidered later she thought that perhaps I was breathing once at least every 20 seconds, because if she hadn't been the apnoea alarm would have sounded'.

Turning to the jury, Mr Johnson said: 'You might want to consider how it was that Lucy Letby could see that I was pale from the door of a room in which there was minimal lighting.

'And you may want to consider the possibility that someone had silenced the alarm or turned it off'.

The third incident happened on October 14 when Baby I suffered desaturation caused by gas in her abdomen. Again she needed to be resuscitated. She was 'brought back from the brink of death' at 7.48am.

'So I had the same problem as she had had before,' said Mr Johnson. 'And yet again there was Lucy Letby who was her designated nurse. Same nurse, same problem – a problem that doesn't happen when she isn't around'.

Baby I was transferred to Arrowe Park on October 15 and quickly stabilised before returning to Letby's hospital on October 17.

Lucy Letby 'tried to kill baby girl four times before succeeding'

The 32-year-old allegedly killed five boys and two girls, and faces a total of 22 charges of both murder and attempted murder involving 17 babies.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Tragically, on the 4th alleged attempt , this baby girl died. And again, LL was ever present.



At 1.06am the infant's designated nurse left the nursery temporarily, but then responded to the alarm. She returned to see Letby at the incubator.

Realising the infant was very distressed, the nurse wanted to intervene. But Letby assured her that they would be able to settle the baby.

'Baby I then collapsed,' said Mr Johnson....

The same on-call registrar arrived at 1.12am and led the attempts at resuscitation. She was joined by the registrar at 1.25am and he noted purple and white mottling.

'All resuscitative efforts were unsuccessful and treatment was withdrawn at 2.10am,' Mr Johnson said. 'Baby I was pronounced dead at 2.30am on October 23.'

 

[Sweeper2000]

You could expect in a straight forward confession much clearer, concise and less melodramatic language not what is patently immature writing. I can post plenty of well researched and authoritative info to back up my opinions. Classical narcissistic reaction to perceived insult is a huge over reaction relative to the oversized ego a prominent trait in narcissism.

“Narcissists, when they feel their carefully constructed identity is threatened, are prone to lashing out in an attempt to eliminate the source of the threat. Narcissistic rage is the response to a combination of shame and depression.

The Austrian-American psychoanalyst Heinz Kohut wrote, “the narcissistically injured cannot rest until he has blotted out a vaguely experienced offender who dared to oppose him, to disagree with him, or to outshine him.”

Narcissistic Rage and Humiliated Fury

There are two types of narcissists, and one is quieter than the other.

www.psychologytoday.com

does not fit.

I didn’t say it was an authoritative analysis either but did say it was my opinion as I do now. It does seem to lack maturity.

 

[katydid23]

You could expect in a straight forward confession much clearer, concise and less melodramatic language not what is patently immature writing. I can post plenty of well researched and authoritative info to back up my opinions. Classical narcissistic reaction to perceived insult is a huge over reaction relative to the oversized ego a prominent trait in narcissism.

“Narcissists, when they feel their carefully constructed identity is threatened, are prone to lashing out in an attempt to eliminate the source of the threat. Narcissistic rage is the response to a combination of shame and depression.

The Austrian-American psychoanalyst Heinz Kohut wrote, “the narcissistically injured cannot rest until he has blotted out a vaguely experienced offender who dared to oppose him, to disagree with him, or to outshine him.”

Narcissistic Rage and Humiliated Fury

There are two types of narcissists, and one is quieter than the other.

www.psychologytoday.com

does not fit.

I didn’t say it was an authoritative analysis either but did say it was my opinion as I do now. It does seem to lack maturity.

Fits perfectly, in my opinion, but only if defendant is actually guilty.

But if so, >>>> “the narcissistically injured cannot rest until he has blotted out a vaguely experienced offender who dared to oppose him, to disagree with him, or to outshine him.”

If GUILTY, then this narcissistic individual successfully lashed out at others by tricking them, deceiving them and outshining them by creating havoc and chaos, all on their own.

 

[katydid23]

You could expect in a straight forward confession much clearer, concise and less melodramatic language not what is patently immature writing. I can post plenty of well researched and authoritative info to back up my opinions. Classical narcissistic reaction to perceived insult is a huge over reaction relative to the oversized ego a prominent trait in narcissism.

“Narcissists, when they feel their carefully constructed identity is threatened, are prone to lashing out in an attempt to eliminate the source of the threat. Narcissistic rage is the response to a combination of shame and depression.

The Austrian-American psychoanalyst Heinz Kohut wrote, “the narcissistically injured cannot rest until he has blotted out a vaguely experienced offender who dared to oppose him, to disagree with him, or to outshine him.”

Narcissistic Rage and Humiliated Fury

There are two types of narcissists, and one is quieter than the other.

www.psychologytoday.com

does not fit.

I didn’t say it was an authoritative analysis either but did say it was my opinion as I do now. It does seem to lack maturity.

How could it be any clearer or more concise?

Literally said I AM EVIL I DID THIS

I did this on purpose, etc.

And why wouldn't one expect immature writing? Only an immature person would behave in such a ridiculous manner. IMO

 

[Dotta]

Why would that quote relate to her capacity as a nurse? She says explicitly " I killed them on purpose ----because I'm not good enough to care for them.

How would her poor nursing skills equate to ' I killed them on purpose?'


Have you wondered WHY she was taken out of room 1 and placed on the day shift at that time?

After all that happened to those tortured babies and those grieving families, her desire to be in room 1 was to soothe her trauma? Did she believe she was the victim here?


She knew exactly what an air embolism was, IMO. How could she not?

I think it's possible she lied as a defense mechanism, and wanted to sound innocent and not dangerous. But it makes no sense that she would be a band 6 nurse and not know what that is.


Why do you think the co-workers would begin having those suspicious thoughts about LL and the recent spike in collapses?

Could it be because so many of these babies had been tended to by LL just moments before they unexpectedly collapsed?

Or maybe because she had been moved to the day shift because of 'her run of bad luck' on the night shift? And now babies are collapsing on the day shift all of a sudden?


I think you will find some of those signs coming up soon in next cases.


check out this alleged scenario:

LL fed the sleeping baby 35mls of expressed breast milk via the NGT at 4pm. Half an hour later an emergency 'crash call' was put out.

Baby I had vomited, desaturated, her heart rate had dropped and she was struggling to breath. Her airway had to be cleared and she was given breathing support before being moved to Room 1.

X-rays revealed a massive amount of gas in her stomach and bowel, and her lungs appeared 'squashed' and of small volume. It was the prosecution case that this air had been injected into the baby's stomach.

The crisis passed, but medical notes record that Letby adjusted the infant's glucose infusion and gave her an injection of saline.

'Within moments, Baby I deteriorated again. However, as I have said, Baby I was resilient and overnight her condition improved'.

Thereafter the baby enjoyed a period of such stability that she did not even need a monitor.



After the previous collapse, Baby I had been in another nurse's care and she greatly improved. She ws not even being monitored anymore because she was so stable. But then look what allegedly happened next:

In the early hours of October 13, Baby I was well and being bottle-fed every four hours. At about 3am her designated nurse briefly left the room and asked Letby and another colleague to listen out for the infant.

Mr Johnson told the court: 'When she returned to Room 2, at about 3.20am, Lucy Letby was stood in the doorway. The room was darkened because it was night time. But as soon as she came in Lucy Letby told her Baby I looked pale.

'When the other nurse turned on the light, she saw that Baby I appeared at the point of death and was not breathing.

'When she reconsidered later she thought that perhaps I was breathing once at least every 20 seconds, because if she hadn't been the apnoea alarm would have sounded'.

Turning to the jury, Mr Johnson said: 'You might want to consider how it was that Lucy Letby could see that I was pale from the door of a room in which there was minimal lighting.

'And you may want to consider the possibility that someone had silenced the alarm or turned it off'.

The third incident happened on October 14 when Baby I suffered desaturation caused by gas in her abdomen. Again she needed to be resuscitated. She was 'brought back from the brink of death' at 7.48am.

'So I had the same problem as she had had before,' said Mr Johnson. 'And yet again there was Lucy Letby who was her designated nurse. Same nurse, same problem – a problem that doesn't happen when she isn't around'.

Baby I was transferred to Arrowe Park on October 15 and quickly stabilised before returning to Letby's hospital on October 17.

Lucy Letby 'tried to kill baby girl four times before succeeding'

The 32-year-old allegedly killed five boys and two girls, and faces a total of 22 charges of both murder and attempted murder involving 17 babies.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Tragically, on the 4th alleged attempt , this baby girl died. And again, LL was ever present.



At 1.06am the infant's designated nurse left the nursery temporarily, but then responded to the alarm. She returned to see Letby at the incubator.

Realising the infant was very distressed, the nurse wanted to intervene. But Letby assured her that they would be able to settle the baby.

'Baby I then collapsed,' said Mr Johnson....

The same on-call registrar arrived at 1.12am and led the attempts at resuscitation. She was joined by the registrar at 1.25am and he noted purple and white mottling.

'All resuscitative efforts were unsuccessful and treatment was withdrawn at 2.10am,' Mr Johnson said. 'Baby I was pronounced dead at 2.30am on October 23.'

So this was the 3rd Baby taken to Arrowe Hospital.
I wonder if some staff from there will be called as witnesses - but do they still have documents/notes from many years ago?

 

[Marantz4250b]

At what point would you have called in the police though? They had to rule out other natural causes first, which the independent review did and then apparently they reviewed each case again after that, before going to the police.

And at what point would you have taken her off patient facing duties? We have the benefit of hindsight now and can see all the cases presented together but they hadn't even picked up on them all being suspicious or linked to LL at the time.

www.cheshire-live.co.uk/news/chester-cheshire-news/chester-hospital-baby-deaths-timeline-19253026

The point at which I was so concerned that my employee might be murdering my patients/customers that I had the thought of changing her shifts to see whether the trail of carnage followed her!

This is not about hindsight. If you have a sufficient level of concern to change someone's shifts as an "experiment" to find out whether they are murdering people - which, to adhere to the rules of thins site, is precicely what the prosecution has said in court and is not merely my opinion - then you are not acting with hindsight.

 

[Sweeper2000]

There is more tHan one potential victim in these scenarios including LL if she is actually innocent. Obviously babies dying isn’t something an average person would want to be around obviously.

I was actually saying as I did in trying to read into the letter that the presence of the words on purpose are used to clarify any doubt that the babies died accidentally or though her not being good enough to care, the word care a reference to her responsibilities as a nurse. I still don’t see why she would include the words on purpose if there was no doubt by anyone, confession or otherwise. Again to take that sentence literally it would be saying she was taking out perceived inadequacy onto the babies, fitting IMO for a narcissistic psychopath.

if she did lie about her knowledge of air embolisms it’s a shockingly poor attempt to cover her tracks, she absolutely should know what one is but I can’t say to what degree she should know about them which might be what she is referencing.

obviously if lots of babies start dying inexplicably people will start asking questions, if they happened on the night shift and LL was one of few people who worked the nights the finger would be pointed at her. Does not mean those rumours are true or even based in truth.

the reason I will be looking more closely is because at this point I think if LL was guilty and looking out for signs there would be examples of it, not blatantly perhaps but something. At this point in time assuming the bitchiness relates to questions surrounding the deaths and then the upcoming move to day shifts if she was looking for signs we might see a change in her use of language and output. All the pressure is on so to speak And so she would if she was looking for signs have all the motivation for a change in approach with perhaps more emphasis on concealment. If she carries on as normal then it suggests she is oblivious.

her response to perceived insult didn’t seem to fit with the definition of rage especially directed at whoever made the comments in the first place. Obviously the baby isn’t he person who made the upsetting comments either.

as I said the word “this” what exactly does she mean by it?

i would not expect immature and melodramatic writing in a confession at all. I would expect direct references to her guilt and whatever the alleged wrongdoing is supposed to be. By way of or instance i she was saying she didn’t care for them in a direct and concise way she would simply say “I killed them because I don’t care about them” its much colder language and to the point. Cold language generally leaves less to the imagination. also something like “I killed them deliberately“. “I am guilty of harming the babies” which doesn’t need to involve law it just needs to include an accusation of wrongdoing. “I am evil” or “horrible“ sounds like something a normal person would not want to think or feel which is very much the impression I’m getting from that note. Drama or immaturity IMO.

a situation in which I would expect immature or dramatic writing would be when an individual is hard pressed by a degree of emotion one is struggling to contain And so has no other outlet. A mature response to these situations IMO would be to control it and mediate it not just an outburst of primal emotion. As an example sending a ex partner a text saying “I hate you I hate I hate you” after the separation. A mediated and mature way of communicating that would be simply to say “I am very upset and hurt”. Direct and concise language That communicates In a non aggravating way. Plenty of full grown adults struggle to achieve that In times of emotional distress.

jmo.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Does it mean each Baby will be discussed all over again with other experts?

Phew!

I hope this trial finishes before Jury's retirement age

This is going to be a loooong case!

And so it should be. There should be no question of justice being shortened to suit anyone else's time frame.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I wonder if we're going to hear, as the trial progresses, evidence of what was going on in terms of staff concerns and management discussions. Or if that's off limits. For instance why the doctor was questioning the other nurse towards the end, and how the decision was finally made to take LL off the unit.

I get the feeling that we are progressing into that side of things with all the discussion in court of her texts about people talking about her, and suchlike,

 

[Marantz4250b]

Brilliantly put. I really don't like how the defence are playing the mental health card with this letter, it's just too obvious. In that case we can just disregard any murder confession note that's ever been written and explain it away by saying they were having a bad time of it.

I personally believe this was the only outlet for her true feelings.

I feel that you are massively missing the entire discussion about that note.

For a start, it's referred to as "a note". It isn't, in my opinion.

It's a series of "notes" on the same piece of paper.

 

[Marantz4250b]

As I've said before due to the different writing styles/size/mix of capitals and lower case and how some things appear squashed in or written over others, I do suspect the note wasn't written in one go but if you look at just the writing from the top left side down, that does all appear to be in the same size and style etc. so possibly written in one go... she makes a number of "I" statements :

(from top to bottom)
I can't breathe
I can't focus
I haven't done anything wrong
I feel very alone and scared
I don't deserve to live
I killed them on purpose
(because) I'm not good enough to care for them
I am a horrible evil person
I don't deserve mom and dad


There is absolutely nothing to indicate or suggest that she is talking about others opinion of her, and those who think she is, seem to have cherry picked just the more incriminating "I" statements from the list and decided that only those "I" statements aren't her own thoughts. Why only those? Why must only the statements that could suggest guilt, be about what other people think instead of being her own thoughts? They presumably accept that the rest of the note is about her own thoughts so why would the parts that suggest guilt not be her own thoughts too?

There is nothing any different between the way she writes "I can't breathe" "I feel very alone and scared" and "I haven't done anything wrong" and the way she writes "I killed them on purpose" "I don't deserve to live" and "I am a horrible evil person" so why would the latter examples be about what other people think rather than her own thoughts ? They're not written in a different style or case. They're not prefaced by the words "They think " or "everybody is saying". IMO the most obvious explanation/conclusion is that all of the "I" statements are talking about herself and her own thoughts. Now whether she was of sound mind when she wrote those thoughts or wrote them whilst in an "anguished" state is another matter. And that seems to be what the defence are arguing.

Having said that I'm not of the opinion that the post it note is a "That's it. Case closed" moment or anything either.

IMO

But, to put yourself in the mindset of someone who was writing on a Post-It note, which is tiny - is it not unreasonable that you may abbreviate things and just put the actual "issues" on such a small piece of paper if your point of doing so is cathartic and personal?

 

[Marantz4250b]

She also doesn’t write any actual assertions of innocence. Just streams of self-pity.

"I didn't do anything wrong" is a reasonably strong assertion of innocence.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I wonder what LL's IQ is? Because I find that often her choice of a word is a little (just a little) childish. eg "awful", "horrible" and "rubbish." JMO

I'm not sure that "IQ" has much to do with ones choice of words.

To be fair, I tend to agree with you about her choice of words but it heavily depends on circumstances; her phrasing seems a bit to "polite" for this day and age but, well, she may just be like that. It depends on her background.

You really can't tell a lot about a person by how they speak or message people, especially in a work context - without getting into too much detail, I've known many women of around her age who rarely swear openly or in messages but, well.....you can probably guess the rest which I'm not putting on here!

Also, as regards "IQ" - it's a bit of a pseudo-science, I think. But that's not within the remit of this discussion.