UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #9

[squish]

"I didn't do anything wrong" is a reasonably strong assertion of innocence.

It’s not. It’s too vague and not direct.

 

[Marantz4250b]

To say the quote “I’m not good enough“ is a reference to her morale character actually means she believes she feels That is something she is lacking And presumably wants which is absurd.

I'd also say that it would be most unusual for a serial killer to say "I'm not good enough" in any context!

Has there ever bee any serial killer who who said this, even as a defence technique?

Serial killers tend to be immensely self-centred, a statement like that suggests a personal failing which, to my knowledge, is not something that serial killers like to admit to.

 

[Marantz4250b]

It’s not. It’s too vague and not direct.

Well, to be fair, it is very unambiguous.

May I ask why you think otherwise?

 

[Sweeper2000]

The word “wrong” is presumably directed at one of two possibilities, didn’t do anything wrong in regards to the moral sense of the word or in regards to the correct way of doing things ie her nursing. It’s one of the clearest sentences in the note. I would bet it is a reference to the moral sense of the word. That phrase is used much more popularly to Reference wrong and right.

jmo.

 

[Sweeper2000]

The only time a serial killer probably referenced to themselves in the negative would be to say “I wasn’t good enough to not get caught”. Notice the egotistical indication.

I know I’ve referenced it before but I’m still not getting why the prosecution couldn’t back up the mother of Baby E’s testimony more. This is a high security unit So I don’t understand why only the mom can state she was there at that time.

“Shortly before the case adjourned for a lunch break on Monday, Mr Johnson said there were "a very restrictive number of people" who could have entered the neonatal unit, due to the security arrangements in place at the hospital.”

Countess of Chester Hospital nurse Lucy Letby "was poisoner at work", trial hears

LUCY Letby was "a poisoner at work", a jury has been told, as the Countess of Chester Hospital nurse's trial heard opening evidence from…

www.warringtonguardian.co.uk

not only that but there should be door swipe data for the unit showing when and maybe who was coming onto the unit.

“Among the evidence were clinical records and charts, 'swipe data' showing who had accessed the neonatal unit at what times, and data recovered from Letby's mobile phone.”

Lucy Letby 'made several Facebook searches for mum of baby who died at neonatal unit'

THE Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit nurse accused of several baby murders looked up the mum of Child A and Child B on Facebook three…

www.northwaleschronicle.co.uk

im genuinely surprised it’s the moms word against LL. if that’s a manned door requiring staff to open it if someone doesn’t have the card then who opened it for the mom? It’s even stranger if the ward the mom came from had the same security arrangements. Again it makes it much less likely LL would have falsified the notes if she knew that it could be conclusively proven the mom turned up punctually. She would have known about the door swipe data being a key holder herself.

 

[Tortoise]

Well, to be fair, it is very unambiguous.

May I ask why you think otherwise?

Do you think she is writing about other people's perception of wrong, or her own perception?

Assuming for the purposes of argument only that she is a serial killer of babies - formulated intent to kill, went to work, killed a baby, went back the next night with the intent to do it to another baby, and so on and so on - do you think that she feels it is wrong? I don't mean understands wrong, but embodies a sense of wrong herself?

This note was private, never intended to be read by anyone with a different view outside hers of what's right and wrong.

On the other hand, assuming she is innocent, the argument about the definition of wrong is moot because we are only looking at whether the line is congruent with other lines that say 'I did this, I killed them on purpose'.

JMO

 

[Kemug]

Turning to the jury, Mr Johnson said: 'You might want to consider how it was that Lucy Letby could see that I was pale from the door of a room in which there was minimal lighting.

Yes.

 

[Tortoise]

I'd also say that it would be most unusual for a serial killer to say "I'm not good enough" in any context!

Has there ever bee any serial killer who who said this, even as a defence technique?

Serial killers tend to be immensely self-centred, a statement like that suggests a personal failing which, to my knowledge, is not something that serial killers like to admit to.

Do you have a source for this?

I imagine, and it's just guesswork on my part, that a serial killer derives a sense of power from killing, especially killing defenceless tiny babies, and that is why they repeat it. This would seem to me to be the desire of someone who feels utterly powerless in themselves. JMO

 

[Kemug]

I'm not sure that "IQ" has much to do with ones choice of words.

To be fair, I tend to agree with you about her choice of words but it heavily depends on circumstances; her phrasing seems a bit to "polite" for this day and age but, well, she may just be like that. It depends on her background.

You really can't tell a lot about a person by how they speak or message people, especially in a work context - without getting into too much detail, I've known many women of around her age who rarely swear openly or in messages but, well.....you can probably guess the rest which I'm not putting on here!

Also, as regards "IQ" - it's a bit of a pseudo-science, I think. But that's not within the remit of this discussion.

I think I should have said "immaturity", rather than "IQ".

 

[Sundial]

So this was the 3rd Baby taken to Arrowe Hospital.
I wonder if some staff from there will be called as witnesses - but do they still have documents/notes from many years ago?

I’ve wondered this before actually; whether they have any input, test results, findings, concerns etc

 

[katydid23]

The point at which I was so concerned that my employee might be murdering my patients/customers that I had the thought of changing her shifts to see whether the trail of carnage followed her!

This is not about hindsight. If you have a sufficient level of concern to change someone's shifts as an "experiment" to find out whether they are murdering people - which, to adhere to the rules of thins site, is precicely what the prosecution has said in court and is not merely my opinion - then you are not acting with hindsight.

However, being suspicious warrants changing someone's shift. But being suspicious does not warrant calling in Law Enforcement, if you don't have any solid evidence.

This needed to be investigated by the most elite medical experts and not LE detectives. Even with all the deep diving the medical experts did for the past several years, it is still a bit tenuous because of her ability to lurk secretly and to allegedly attack fragile victims who could possibly have had natural medical issues as the cause of death.

There would have been nothing police could have done at that time, IMO.

 

[Sundial]

It’s not. It’s too vague and not direct.

I completely agree, even those who have actually been found guilty in other cases with finger prints or dna etc (without bringing in examples as per site rules) had stated they haven’t done anything wrong. Even after being jailed and there is no other possible scenario, those guilty have still alleged they did nothing wrong.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Do you have a source for this?

I imagine, and it's just guesswork on my part, that a serial killer derives a sense of power from killing, especially killing defenceless tiny babies, and that is why they repeat it. This would seem to me to be the desire of someone who feels utterly powerless in themselves. JMO

it would depend on how you define serial killer. An individual who meticulously plans and plots to ensnare victims isn’t the same as one who shoots up a store killing four people.

an individual capable of doing what LL is accused of and plotting, scheming and deceiving people to the degree necessary would IMO qualify as a psychopathic serial killer.

“Several theories of psychopathy link it to an egocentric mode of perceiving the world. This explanatory perspective is quite plausible given that psychopaths are viewed as callous, uncaring, and narcissistic.”

In addition, an egocentricity perspective can potentially explain many of the traits ascribed to primary psychopaths such as narcissism, callousness, and self-serving dominance (Benning et al., 2005; Miller, Gaughan, & Pryor, 2008). In all such cases, and others that we could cite, cognitive egocentrism may be a key mechanism.

Egocentric Perceptions of the Environment in Primary, but not Secondary, Psychopathy

Several theories of psychopathy link it to an egocentric mode of perceiving the world. This explanatory perspective is quite plausible given that psychopaths are viewed as callous, uncaring, and narcissistic. This explanatory perspective, though, has ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The behavior of psychopaths is, without doubt, morally inappropriate, including murder, sexual molestation, fraud, and arson. Further, clinical analyses show that they present abnormal emotional profiles, as well as problems with inhibitory control, often leading to both reactive and instrumental aggression (Blair, 1995, 1997

Psychopaths know right from wrong but don’t care

Adult psychopaths have deficits in emotional processing and inhibitory control, engage in morally inappropriate behavior, and generally fail to distinguish moral from conventional violations. These observations, together with a dominant tradition in the ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"You don't understand me. You are not expected to. You are not capable of it. I am beyond your experience. I am beyond good and evil… I don't believe in the hypocritical, moralistic dogma of this so-called civilized society.... You maggots make me sick! Hypocrites one and all... I don't need to hear all of society's rationalizations”

richard Ramirez aka the night killer

Self-Promotion by Serial Killers Fuels Their Appeal

Some serial killers actively create their own diabolical public images.

www.psychologytoday.com

the degree to which a psychopathic individual would put themselves down would relate to the degree that they are narcissistic. Narcissists are not known for putting themselves down or being anything other than perfect in the mind of others. IMO.

Psychological gratification is the usual motive for serial killing, and many serial murders involve sexual contact with the victim.[4] The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) states that the motives of serial killers can include anger, thrill-seeking, financial gain, and attention seeking, and killings may be executed as such.[5] The victims may have something in common; for example, demographic profile, appearance, gender or race.[6] Often the FBI will focus on a particular pattern serial killers follow.[7] Based on this pattern, this will give key clues into finding the killer along with their motives.[8]

Serial killer - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

one might assume an individual would have to be extremely self centred to be able to inflict that level of suffering on others.

jmo.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Do you think she is writing about other people's perception of wrong, or her own perception?

Assuming for the purposes of argument only that she is a serial killer of babies - formulated intent to kill, went to work, killed a baby, went back the next night with the intent to do it to another baby, and so on and so on - do you think that she feels it is wrong? I don't mean understands wrong, but embodies a sense of wrong herself?

This note was private, never intended to be read by anyone with a different view outside hers of what's right and wrong.

On the other hand, assuming she is innocent, the argument about the definition of wrong is moot because we are only looking at whether the line is congruent with other lines that say 'I did this, I killed them on purpose'.

JMO

why couldn’t it be the collectively agreed upon definition of wrong? There are plenty of things that people innately know are wrong Harming children tends to be at the top of the list regardless of culture, education or time.There’s also no reason to suggest her own understanding of wrong is different from anyone else’s. psychopaths tend not to care about right and wrong either, it simply wouldn’t be in he note and again the note wouldn’t be there either, IMO.

 

[Kemug]

I may have mentioned my narcissist ex-friend before, the houseguest who refused to leave. It was quite the learning experience for me. I could write a book, but I will just confine myself today to one little episode. She (I will call her M) went out for the day, taking a bus to the train station, and on from there. Having been previously accused of not showing enough interest, I politely inquired if she was going anywhere interesting. "That's none of your business!" she snapped at me. The day continued, and I was out and about doing errands. In the mid afternoon it began to rain, so I swung by the train station on my way home, in case M was waiting there at the bus stop (she had declined to give me any idea of when she might be home.) She wasn't there, so I continued on to my home. Somewhat later, M stormed into the house, wringing wet, and shouting "Where were you?!!" It turned out that she had just missed a bus, which made her so angry that she marched all the way home (5 miles) in the rain, instead of just waiting for the next bus. And it was all my fault.
From my experience I don't think LL is a narcissist.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I may have mentioned my narcissist ex-friend before, the houseguest who refused to leave. It was quite the learning experience for me. I could write a book, but I will just confine myself today to one little episode. She (I will call her M) went out for the day, taking a bus to the train station, and on from there. Having been previously accused of not showing enough interest, I politely inquired if she was going anywhere interesting. "That's none of your business!" she snapped at me. The day continued, and I was out and about doing errands. In the mid afternoon it began to rain, so I swung by the train station on my way home, in case M was waiting there at the bus stop (she had declined to give me any idea of when she might be home.) She wasn't there, so I continued on to my home. Somewhat later, M stormed into the house, wringing wet, and shouting "Where were you?!!" It turned out that she had just missed a bus, which made her so angry that she marched all the way home (5 miles) in the rain, instead of just waiting for the next bus. And it was all my fault.
From my experience I don't think LL is a narcissist.

sounds Narcy to me. Everyone else is at fault except them And always with the anger. 5 miles is a long way to walk in a huff, I wonder how many buses drove past her I hope you said wipe your feet.

no ll has shown few if any narccy traits IMO and few if any other negative traits either. Especially going by the prosecution’s lack of evidence put forward in that way. She seems if a bit self orientated not necessarily self centred and not apparently selfish a key trait of narcissism. Assuming she isn’t putting on a act.

jmo

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

Do you have a source for this?

I imagine, and it's just guesswork on my part, that a serial killer derives a sense of power from killing, especially killing defenceless tiny babies, and that is why they repeat it. This would seem to me to be the desire of someone who feels utterly powerless in themselves. JMO

FWIW I agree with you Tortoise, yes there's some killers who do have a very inflated sense of self and think they're amazing, but I'd say most of them feel a lack of control over their lives and typically feel powerless, killing someone can be seen as having the ultimate level of power/control. In my opinion most killers are losers, or perceive themselves to be losers anyway and get their self worth from the act of control over life and death/playing god.

All my opinion only.

 

[Kemug]

Everyone else is at fault except them And always with the anger. 5 miles is a long way to walk in a huff, I wonder how many buses drove past her I hope you said wipe your feet.

No, I was too cowed! Great reply though!

 

[katydid23]

it would depend on how you define serial killer. An individual who meticulously plans and plots to ensnare victims isn’t the same as one who shoots up a store killing four people.

And an individual who kills completely vulnerable newborns, under their care, isn't the same as An individual who ' meticulously plans and plots to ensnare victims.' There is a big difference between the two. One is a much bigger coward than the other, IMO.

an individual capable of doing what LL is accused of and plotting, scheming and deceiving people to the degree necessary would IMO qualify as a psychopathic serial killer.

“Several theories of psychopathy link it to an egocentric mode of perceiving the world. This explanatory perspective is quite plausible given that psychopaths are viewed as callous, uncaring, and narcissistic.”

In addition, an egocentricity perspective can potentially explain many of the traits ascribed to primary psychopaths such as narcissism, callousness, and self-serving dominance (Benning et al., 2005; Miller, Gaughan, & Pryor, 2008). In all such cases, and others that we could cite, cognitive egocentrism may be a key mechanism.

Egocentric Perceptions of the Environment in Primary, but not Secondary, Psychopathy

Several theories of psychopathy link it to an egocentric mode of perceiving the world. This explanatory perspective is quite plausible given that psychopaths are viewed as callous, uncaring, and narcissistic. This explanatory perspective, though, has ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The behavior of psychopaths is, without doubt, morally inappropriate, including murder, sexual molestation, fraud, and arson. Further, clinical analyses show that they present abnormal emotional profiles, as well as problems with inhibitory control, often leading to both reactive and instrumental aggression (Blair, 1995, 1997

Psychopaths know right from wrong but don’t care

Adult psychopaths have deficits in emotional processing and inhibitory control, engage in morally inappropriate behavior, and generally fail to distinguish moral from conventional violations. These observations, together with a dominant tradition in the ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"You don't understand me. You are not expected to. You are not capable of it. I am beyond your experience. I am beyond good and evil… I don't believe in the hypocritical, moralistic dogma of this so-called civilized society.... You maggots make me sick! Hypocrites one and all... I don't need to hear all of society's rationalizations”

richard Ramirez aka the night killer

Self-Promotion by Serial Killers Fuels Their Appeal

Some serial killers actively create their own diabolical public images.

www.psychologytoday.com

I see no similarities between Richard Ramirez and whomever killed these 2 pound, totally vulnerable, innocent preemies.

the degree to which a psychopathic individual would put themselves down would relate to the degree that they are narcissistic. Narcissists are not known for putting themselves down or being anything other than perfect in the mind of others. IMO.

Psychological gratification is the usual motive for serial killing, and many serial murders involve sexual contact with the victim.[4] The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) states that the motives of serial killers can include anger, thrill-seeking, financial gain, and attention seeking, and killings may be executed as such.[5] The victims may have something in common; for example, demographic profile, appearance, gender or race.[6] Often the FBI will focus on a particular pattern serial killers follow.[7] Based on this pattern, this will give key clues into finding the killer along with their motives.[8]

Serial killer - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

one might assume an individual would have to be extremely self centred to be able to inflict that level of suffering on others.

jmo.

Narcissists do put themselves down when they are spiralling, which often happens. Many of them are bi-polar and have cycles of egocentric highs but corresponding lows.

Just because someone is self centred does not mean that they cannot also be self-critical, deeply depressed and anxious at times. IMO

 

[katydid23]

why couldn’t it be the collectively agreed upon definition of wrong? There are plenty of things that people innately know are wrong Harming children tends to be at the top of the list regardless of culture, education or time.There’s also no reason to suggest her own understanding of wrong is different from anyone else’s. psychopaths tend not to care about right and wrong either, it simply wouldn’t be in he note and again the note wouldn’t be there either, IMO.

I don't understand how anyone can declare that 'psychopaths' would NEVER leave a note or NEVER care about right or wrong.

Psychopaths come in all kinds of packages. I don't think there are such black and white rules about what they do or don't do.

Nor do we know if the killer of these babies can even be given that diagnosis to begin with.