UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #9

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Sweeper2000 said:
sounds Narcy to me. Everyone else is at fault except them And always with the anger. 5 miles is a long way to walk in a huff, I wonder how many buses drove past her :) I hope you said wipe your feet.

no ll has shown few if any narccy traits IMO and few if any other negative traits either. Especially going by the prosecution’s lack of evidence put forward in that way. She seems if a bit self orientated not necessarily self centred and not apparently selfish a key trait of narcissism. Assuming she isn’t putting on a act.

jmo
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" Assuming she isn’t putting on a act."

YES, assuming she isn't putting on an act. Key point , IMO.
 
Sweeper2000 said:
why couldn’t it be the collectively agreed upon definition of wrong? There are plenty of things that people innately know are wrong Harming children tends to be at the top of the list regardless of culture, education or time.There’s also no reason to suggest her own understanding of wrong is different from anyone else’s. psychopaths tend not to care about right and wrong either, it simply wouldn’t be in he note and again the note wouldn’t be there either, IMO.
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See the bolded and underlined -
Tortoise said:
I don't mean understands wrong, but embodies a sense of wrong herself?
Click to expand...

You ask "why couldn't it be the collectively agreed upon definition of wrong?" The answer is, IMO, because she is not writing to anyone and so she is free to pour out her feelings privately in the note without external judgement.

You're saying if she's guilty, a psychopath, in your opinion she wouldn't have written a note. It's as if you can't think beyond the note's purpose being for external consumption and judgement and that she would have to care about others to have written personal notes.

Psychopaths clearly have their own feelings, like fear of having their freedom taken away, and being locked up in prison, or they would commit their crimes out in the open and not plead not-guilty. They also write down words. The note is all about herself, not one word in it shows care or empathy for others. The closest she gets is

The world is better off without me.

This shows acknowledgement of her being harmful to the world - everyone. Recognition that the world suffers because of her. Her one and only allusion to the suffering of others, but there is no apology. The suffering of others in this case is plain to see, doesn't mean she shares in the suffering. She doesn't write about feelings of guilt, she just plainly states that she is evil, there's no feeling in that. It's unapologetic.

All MOO
 
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LadyEdgeworth said:
FWIW I agree with you Tortoise, yes there's some killers who do have a very inflated sense of self and think they're amazing, but I'd say most of them feel a lack of control over their lives and typically feel powerless, killing someone can be seen as having the ultimate level of power/control. In my opinion most killers are losers, or perceive themselves to be losers anyway and get their self worth from the act of control over life and death/playing god.

All my opinion only.
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I think most killers have significant feelings of inadequacy. Probably because many have suffered some type of childhood trauma. I agree that for many, the only time they feel powerful is when they have control over their victims. Yet they pick the most vulnerable and easiest to overpower and kill, which is cowardly.

And yes, they do seem as if they are full of themselves but in reality are extremely insecure. Killing is probably the only thing they feel they excel at. It becomes obsessive to a point they start making mistakes. That's often when they finally get caught. Jmo
 
Becci said:
Hi i might of asked this early on or someone else might have,
There were 15 baby deaths for the police to look into.
LL is accused of 7.
Was she on shift for any of the remaining 8? Thanks
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We don't know anything about deaths that aren't in the charges.

There was only one, baby K, who she was originally charged with murdering but the charge was dropped. She is however accused of attempting to murder baby K, an extremely premature baby, who died 3 days later at the hospital she was transferred to. That will be one of the remaining 8, so there were 7 deaths over 2015/2016 that have not been attributed to LL.
 
katydid23 said:
" Assuming she isn’t putting on a act."

YES, assuming she isn't putting on an act. Key point , IMO.
Click to expand...
I'm reminded of baby F, the baby who was poisoned with insulin. If LL did it, this text shows deceit and manipulation in a very subtle manner, disguised in praise of the designated nurse who had been duped.


8.47am – LL is messaging the night shift designated nurse for F;
LL: "Did you hear what F's sugar was at 8am?"
Nurse: "No?"
LL: "1.8"
Nurse: "S***!!!!, now I feel awful but leaving it three hours didn't seem excessive and it was only two and a half hours"
LL: "Something isn't right if he is dropping like that with the amount of fluid he’s had and being 1.65kg, don’t think you needed to do it sooner, got to think of his poor heels too"


His blood sugar at 8am was actually 1.7, so she's given nurse a better picture than the reality.

Let's remember that baby F's blood sugar was being tested hourly until 5am, when LL did the test and recorded a big improvement, supposedly responding to the glucose LL was administering (even though she wasn't his designated nurse).

4am - 1.9
5am - 2.9 (recorded by LL)
8am - 1.7
8.30am - day nurse administered a bolus of glucose
10am - 1.3 despite the bolus and despite glucose also being in the TPN.

The designated nurse didn't repeat the test after LL did it at 5am, and she felt awful for that.

LL said she didn't think the nurse needed to do it sooner, and placed his "poor heels" over the risk of him dying.

LL didn't ask what nurse meant by "leaving it three hours", showing she didn't need to ask because she was already aware of that decision when they had been on shift.

If the designated nurse had continued to test him hourly, the problem would have come to light during the night shift.

If LL administered the insulin, this shows manipulation by continued endorsement of the nurse's decision even after it was shown to have been detrimental to the baby, and most likely, IMO, because she had already been party to the question of whether to continue testing him hourly after 5am.


MOO
 
MsBetsy said:
We don't know what her idea of right and wrong is or how she justifies her actions.
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Exactly.

The serial killing of babies would by definition mean the killer didn't cross their own line of what is wrong, or they wouldn't do it. It's compatible in that context with their original decision to kill a baby and compatible with "I did it" and "I killed them on purpose".

Conversely, "I did it", "I killed them on purpose" is not compatible with innocence and a statement about what society judges to be wrong.

MOO
 
Tortoise said:
See the bolded and underlined -


You ask "why couldn't it be the collectively agreed upon definition of wrong?" The answer is, IMO, because she is not writing to anyone and so she is free to pour out her feelings privately in the note without external judgement.

You're saying if she's guilty, a psychopath, in your opinion she wouldn't have written a note. It's as if you can't think beyond the note's purpose being for external consumption and judgement and that she would have to care about others to have written personal notes.

Psychopaths clearly have their own feelings, like fear of having their freedom taken away, and being locked up in prison, or they would commit their crimes out in the open and not plead not-guilty. They also write down words. The note is all about herself, not one word in it shows care or empathy for others. The closest she gets is

The world is better off without me.

This shows acknowledgement of her being harmful to the world - everyone. Recognition that the world suffers because of her. Her one and only allusion to the suffering of others, but there is no apology. The suffering of others in this case is plain to see, doesn't mean she shares in the suffering. She doesn't write about feelings of guilt, she just plainly states that she is evil, there's no feeling in that. It's unapologetic.

All MOO
Click to expand...

I would have thought the fact she wrote “not done anything wrong” followed immediately by “police investigation forget” is a direct reference to the collectively arrived at definition of wrong or at least an example that at that point of writing she was thinking of external factors of the situation. I don’t believe a psychopath would write a note that is blatantly self incriminating in the context of being looked at with suspicion, no or at least not one who intended to avoid consequences.

my point on the note has always been that in her recognition of its implications if guilty and if found the note would have been destroyed or concealed In line with someone hiding incriminating information. It would obviously be something of profound significance to anyone trying to hide incriminating information if guilty and wouldnt IMO be forgotten or left around. I might suggest it’s immaturity suggests it isn’t of great importance to her or a good indicator of her true feelings. It’s also the only insight to the personal mind of LL the prosecution have offered as of yet and they had her diary.

I would also suggest the garbled writing on one post it note would not at all be a good indication of who she is and to take that as a picture of the whole discounting other information is far too convenient. I would sooner look to the diary as a picture both as it would contain information on a consistent basis and would contain info written under less duress and with less reason to fear the consequences of it being discovered. IMO she would write much more about herself and with the guard down so might be more revealing. The prosecution have not offered anything indicative of a bad character aside from the note and that’s their job indicative IMO in its absence.

people generally don’t apologise if they feel they have done nothing wrong. Looking at the context of the note it’s pretty obvious she isn’t feeling good. Anyone accused of something they haven’t done would feel the way she obviously does in that note. Ugly, horrible, aggrieved and it’s reasonable to think a person would be focused purely on themselves if wounded or in pain.

again the word “world” is a very broad and general word to use its similar to her usage of the word “this“ again it’s dramatic and not necessarily a cold word to use. A cold, direct and concise way of making a statement like that would be to say “people are better off without me” that would be much more to the point. She does show love for other btw in her statements regarding her family, “I don’t deserve” means she thinks they are good people who don’t deserve to be associated with someone accused of these things. Also shows she understands right and wrong and grievance of other and apparently guilt that she has hurt them.

there are plenty of examples of her showing empathy for others or a understanding of their perspective. For example when she took the pictures of the baby rolling over for the mum, that shows she understands what an emotional response to the picture would be. Assuming it wasn’t a cover.

jmo.

tbh I still don’t think the note really says anything about her, not at all especially in regards to whether or not she is guilty as charged. Only that if that’s the best the prosecution have to offer it’s pretty poor especially when they have her diary and other personal writings.
 
Sweeper2000 said:
I would have thought the fact she wrote “not done anything wrong” followed immediately by “police investigation forget” is a direct reference to the collectively arrived at definition of wrong or at least an example that at that point of writing she was thinking of external factors of the situation. I don’t believe a psychopath would write a note that is blatantly self incriminating in the context of being looked at with suspicion, no or at least not one who intended to avoid consequences.

my point on the note has always been that in her recognition of its implications if guilty and if found the note would have been destroyed or concealed In line with someone hiding incriminating information. It would obviously be something of profound significance to anyone trying to hide incriminating information if guilty and wouldnt IMO be forgotten or left around. I might suggest it’s immaturity suggests it isn’t of great importance to her or a good indicator of her true feelings. It’s also the only insight to the personal mind of LL the prosecution have offered as of yet and they had her diary.

I would also suggest the garbled writing on one post it note would not at all be a good indication of who she is and to take that as a picture of the whole discounting other information is far too convenient. I would sooner look to the diary as a picture both as it would contain information on a consistent basis and would contain info written under less duress and with less reason to fear the consequences of it being discovered. IMO she would write much more about herself and with the guard down so might be more revealing. The prosecution have not offered anything indicative of a bad character aside from the note and that’s their job indicative IMO in its absence.

people generally don’t apologise if they feel they have done nothing wrong. Looking at the context of the note it’s pretty obvious she isn’t feeling good. Anyone accused of something they haven’t done would feel the way she obviously does in that note. Ugly, horrible, aggrieved and it’s reasonable to think a person would be focused purely on themselves if wounded or in pain.

again the word “world” is a very broad and general word to use its similar to her usage of the word “this“ again it’s dramatic and not necessarily a cold word to use. A cold, direct and concise way of making a statement like that would be to say “people are better off without me” that would be much more to the point. She does show love for other btw in her statements regarding her family, “I don’t deserve” means she thinks they are good people who don’t deserve to be associated with someone accused of these things. Also shows she understands right and wrong and grievance of other and apparently guilt that she has hurt them.

there are plenty of examples of her showing empathy for others or a understanding of their perspective. For example when she took the pictures of the baby rolling over for the mum, that shows she understands what an emotional response to the picture would be. Assuming it wasn’t a cover.

jmo.

tbh I still don’t think the note really says anything about her, not at all especially in regards to whether or not she is guilty as charged. Only that if that’s the best the prosecution have to offer it’s pretty poor especially when they have her diary and other personal writings.
Click to expand...


We don't know how indepth her diary was. Whether it was more like a journal where she wrote lots of thoughts down or just a diary to keep track of appointments and significant events, we just know that she mentioned at least one of the babies' collapses in it. Either way, I think the fact that these thoughts were written on something small and disposable like a post it note and not in a diary points to it being something she may have needed to get off her chest but didn't want a permanent record of. In view of that I think its contents are likely to be much more ungarded than the contents of her diary. The fact that it was found by police doesn't indicate that she wrote it knowing it would be found or that she hadn't attempted to conceal or dispose of it. I'd be surprised for example , if it was found stuck to her fridge for all to see!

I see nothing unusual in her use of the word "world" instead of people as "the world would be better off.." is a common phrase. Likewise her use of "this" instead of "it" when she says "I did this" seems pretty normal , especially as she explains what "this" is, when she says "I killed them on purpose"

And although I originally read the "I didn't do anything wrong" as conflicting information, when I reread it I realsied she wasn't saying "I didn't kill them" she was just saying she didn't believe her actions (whatever they were) were wrong.
 
ColourPurple said:
I realsied she wasn't saying "I didn't kill them" she was just saying she didn't believe her actions (whatever they were) were wrong.
Click to expand...
Doesn't it sound as if it was (allegedly) some kind of justified "mission" for her?

But then, the word "evil" indicates she understands the acts were wrong.

Oh well...

JMO
 
Sweeper2000 said:
I would have thought the fact she wrote “not done anything wrong” followed immediately by “police investigation forget” is a direct reference to the collectively arrived at definition of wrong or at least an example that at that point of writing she was thinking of external factors of the situation. I don’t believe a psychopath would write a note that is blatantly self incriminating in the context of being looked at with suspicion, no or at least not one who intended to avoid consequences.

my point on the note has always been that in her recognition of its implications if guilty and if found the note would have been destroyed or concealed In line with someone hiding incriminating information. It would obviously be something of profound significance to anyone trying to hide incriminating information if guilty and wouldnt IMO be forgotten or left around. I might suggest it’s immaturity suggests it isn’t of great importance to her or a good indicator of her true feelings. It’s also the only insight to the personal mind of LL the prosecution have offered as of yet and they had her diary.

I would also suggest the garbled writing on one post it note would not at all be a good indication of who she is and to take that as a picture of the whole discounting other information is far too convenient. I would sooner look to the diary as a picture both as it would contain information on a consistent basis and would contain info written under less duress and with less reason to fear the consequences of it being discovered. IMO she would write much more about herself and with the guard down so might be more revealing. The prosecution have not offered anything indicative of a bad character aside from the note and that’s their job indicative IMO in its absence.

people generally don’t apologise if they feel they have done nothing wrong. Looking at the context of the note it’s pretty obvious she isn’t feeling good. Anyone accused of something they haven’t done would feel the way she obviously does in that note. Ugly, horrible, aggrieved and it’s reasonable to think a person would be focused purely on themselves if wounded or in pain.

again the word “world” is a very broad and general word to use its similar to her usage of the word “this“ again it’s dramatic and not necessarily a cold word to use. A cold, direct and concise way of making a statement like that would be to say “people are better off without me” that would be much more to the point. She does show love for other btw in her statements regarding her family, “I don’t deserve” means she thinks they are good people who don’t deserve to be associated with someone accused of these things. Also shows she understands right and wrong and grievance of other and apparently guilt that she has hurt them.

there are plenty of examples of her showing empathy for others or a understanding of their perspective. For example when she took the pictures of the baby rolling over for the mum, that shows she understands what an emotional response to the picture would be. Assuming it wasn’t a cover.

jmo.

tbh I still don’t think the note really says anything about her, not at all especially in regards to whether or not she is guilty as charged. Only that if that’s the best the prosecution have to offer it’s pretty poor especially when they have her diary and other personal writings.
Click to expand...


Looking through all LL texts and discussions I really struggle to see any empathy shown, In particular toward the babies in these cases.
 
ColourPurple said:
We don't know how indepth her diary was. Whether it was more like a journal where she wrote lots of thoughts down or just a diary to keep track of appointments and significant events, we just know that she mentioned at least one of the babies' collapses in it. Either way, I think the fact that these thoughts were written on something small and disposable like a post it note and not in a diary points to it being something she may have needed to get off her chest but didn't want a permanent record of. In view of that I think its contents are likely to be much more ungarded than the contents of her diary. The fact that it was found by police doesn't indicate that she wrote it knowing it would be found or that she hadn't attempted to conceal or dispose of it. I'd be surprised for example , if it was found stuck to her fridge for all to see!

I see nothing unusual in her use of the word "world" instead of people as "the world would be better off.." is a common phrase. Likewise her use of "this" instead of "it" when she says "I did this" seems pretty normal , especially as she explains what "this" is, when she says "I killed them on purpose"

And although I originally read the "I didn't do anything wrong" as conflicting information, when I reread it I realsied she wasn't saying "I didn't kill them" she was just saying she didn't believe her actions (whatever they were) were wrong.
Click to expand...
These are mostly fair points. If the note and it’s contents was something she wanted to get off her chest it would imply guilt Though or unwanted feelings and thoughts. The only potential reference to feeling guilty and ashamed is the reference to her family.

it really isn’t the kind of thing a guilty person trying to hide incriminating information would leave around though at all, it would be significant to that person to say the least most especially when she knows she is under suspicion.

the diary or other personal writings including her texts I think would give a much better indication to her personality on a consistent basis Assuming you don’t say anything she writes that makes her look like a normal conscientious individual is a cover. You would have to say she is constantly on guard without a single slip up going against the idea she would leave that note around with all its blatancy. Granted we don’t have many more informal communications to go into though.

the word “this” to me still isn’t a direct reference to any accusations, it’s dramatic and warm. “I did it” would be a direct and non dramatic way of addressing the accusations. “People are better off without me” would be a much more direct reference to an understanding of victims and of right and wrong in my opinion not “the world” again suggesting she thinks the world is a good place and she a bad thing in it. The world is a big general place to think one is victimising it entirely. Again just dramatics to me.

you do have to take the sentence of “wrong” with the following sentence of “police” in my opinion, suggestive of the collective understanding of right and wrong. Her words regarding “police forget slander discrimination“ etc to me suggests she thinks the investigation wouldn’t be happening if it wasn’t for those elements suggesting she sees herself as a victim in this situation Or one being treated unfairly. Suggestive she knows how to treat people correctly and without prejudice, again suggesting she knows the normal definition of right and wrong.

I would agree btw she seems to not show much emotional investment in the babies but that assumes her words Showing empathy are a cover. Very matter of fact tbh but I can’t say that’s beyond the remit of a nurse in her position and one understanding that that is a part of the job. It’s also true i think that a nurse in a ward like that would not necessarily be given the time to establish a strong connection to the babies and family, I’m not sure how long they nurse one and then the family go home, she could just be use to babies being fleetingly present in her life and not developing attachment. Goodbyes can be particularly difficult to do without hurt especially with so many of them.

“Ms Letby went on to say she found the boy's death "quite hard because he lived several hours [after the collapse]" and she had "not seen that before".
She said it was "very sad" for the parents.”

www.bbc.co.uk

Lucy Letby: Murder-accused nurse found baby's death hard, trial hears

The nurse is accused of killing seven babies and attempting to murder 10 others on a neo-natal ward.
www.bbc.co.uk
 
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