UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #9

[ColourPurple]

”caused”?

Impossible to tell but I'd say it's either a d ,b,l or t. Or I guess it could even be an exclamation mark!

 

[Sweeper2000]

Impossible to tell but I'd say it's either a d ,b,l or t. Or I guess it could even be an exclamation mark!

Very difficult to say. Try magnifying that part of the note. underneath the layers of ink at the top bit of the circle I’m sure you can make out some letters. Looks like ie in capitals or I C. Really really difficult to make out though.

im sure she says “care for them” I can see the outline of an a but it’s where the ink didn’t run properly.

 

[Anxala]

I'm really not getting an impartial vibe from your posts at all.

More of a strong denial that the note could possibly be in any way, shape or form, a confession.

I think there's far more compelling evidence against LL than that very rambling and very ambiguous postit note. That seems imo to be all that @Sweeper2000 is saying.

S/he at no point has claimed that LL is innocent. On the contrary, in fact. In which case, pointing out such obvious weaknesses in what has been put forward by the prosecution as such evidence of guilt is the very essence of impartiality.

 

[katydid23]

that is my opinion yes.

im not actually arguing for or against I’m just exploring potential reasons, trying to be as impartial as possible.

im actually still caught up on the insulin case.

do you not think the prosecution would have added to information about the note anything about it being deliberately hidden if that was obvious in the evidence gathered? Suggests it’s location is ambiguous.

I did actually recall the protestations of innocence being referred to by mr Myers My mistake.

it would certainly bolster the prosecution if they had of said the note in question was “found obviously hidden”

"it would certainly bolster the prosecution if they had of said the note in question was “found obviously hidden”

Why would that bolster the prosecution? I'd think it would be more damning if it was left in a prominent, obvious place, like it was meant to be found.

 

[Dotta]

In my opinion the note is the confession.

And I think Prosecution treats it as such.

If other notes/diary deny guilt, then this note would not be presented.

That is what I believe.

 

[DianaWW]

It doesn’t look as though we’re even getting a write up today. Well I haven’t been able to find one yet anyway.

 

[Dotta]

It doesn’t look as though we’re even getting a write up today. Well I haven’t been able to find one yet anyway.

Today

Medics left needle inside baby's chest, Lucy Letby trial hears

The prosecution alleges Lucy Letby, 33, somehow sabotaged the infant's treatment on two separate occasions on successive night shifts in the neonatal unit of the Countess of Chester Hospital.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[DianaWW]

Today

Medics left needle inside baby's chest, Lucy Letby trial hears

The prosecution alleges Lucy Letby, 33, somehow sabotaged the infant's treatment on two separate occasions on successive night shifts in the neonatal unit of the Countess of Chester Hospital.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Thank you!

 

[Sweeper2000]

i certainly wouldn’t like to think I have found anyone guilty and then worked backwards at all nor rested my opinion as a result of oppositional feeling.

"it would certainly bolster the prosecution if they had of said the note in question was “found obviously hidden”

Why would that bolster the prosecution? I'd think it would be more damning if it was left in a prominent, obvious place, like it was meant to be found.

hiding something means you have something to hide, it would also mean that in the cases where the prosecution have alleged she has covered her tracks, altered notes etc that would be more easily believed by the jury thus bolstering the prosecution’s position that LL is the kind of person who would do as alleged. Presumably if the note was designed to be left in a place where it would obviously be found it would also contain a straight forward confession And wouldn’t contain the words “I haven’t done anything wrong“.

 

[mart321]

Another confusing day from the write up.

In regards to the chest drain fitted by Dr Jayaram. The defence are going with the fact it was fitted in a "sub-optimal" position but we heard today it was fitted in an emergency procedure as a life saving aid. And it did just that.

Also what are the facts regarding Dr Jayaram's intended position when he was doing this procedure? The evidence seems to suggest a build up of air in a lower position and therefore it was his intention to insert it as he did.

There seems to be a focus on a medication that was delayed and helps to relax the lungs. Not sure what to make of this?

Is it sub-optimal care?

or the medical team acting in the moment to an emergency situation created by sabotage?


Dr Bohin says that regardless of this, it would certainly have not have caused a cardiac arrest

So what could have caused the cardiac arrest?

 

[ColourPurple]

Another confusing day from the write up.

In regards to the chest drain fitted by Dr Jayaram. The defence are going with the fact it was fitted in a "sub-optimal" position but we heard today it was fitted in an emergency procedure as a life saving aid. And it did just that.

Also what are the facts regarding Dr Jayaram's intended position when he was doing this procedure? The evidence seems to suggest a build up of air in a lower position and therefore it was his intention to insert it as he did.

There seems to be a focus on a medication that was delayed and helps to relax the lungs. Not sure what to make of this?

Is it sub-optimal care?

or the medical team acting in the moment to an emergency situation created by sabotage?


Dr Bohin says that regardless of this, it would certainly have not have caused a cardiac arrest

So what could have caused the cardiac arrest?

"The paediatrician agreed that there had been delays in intubating Baby H and in giving her surfactant, a protein used to help relax an infant's lungs. The latter delay meant that when the baby was ventilated the increased air pressure needed had the effect of worsening her pneumothorax"...

She said the butterfly needle left inside the baby's chest might have punctured lung tissue and contributed to the ongoing pneumothorax. Mr Myers asked: 'Leaving a butterfly needle in situ is suboptimal practice, isn't it?'

Dr Bohin replied: 'Yes, because it's hazardous'.She rejected Mr Myers' suggestion that the explanation for Baby H's two mystery collapses might have been the cumulative effect of a series of procedures she had been through. 'A baby will desaturate as the result of an event, but it's not cumulative and it certainly doesn't cause a cardiac arrest'.

Sounds like they definitely should have given the lung medication etc sooner, and that not doing so could have worsened the pneumothorax but none of the doctors/medical experts have said that the delay was connected to the two major collapses where Baby H went into cardiac arrest. And it looks like the butterfly needle being left in could also have contributed to the pneumothorax but also would not have led to to the two major collapses.

I think the chest drain being in the "wrong " place is a bit of a red herring as DR Jayaram explained that there was already a drain inserted in the optimal place, and that he inserted a second one lower down as that's where the air seemed to be accumulating.. and that it worked at the time. I can't help wondering if somebody was already trying to sabotage the drains before the two major collapses but as the charges are only in relation to the big collapses that's just me speculating. But we've heard one doctor say they'd never seen a baby block the tubes as much as Baby H and another say they had never had to use three drains on a baby in their whole medical career.


ETA the info re the 2nd drain

Today Dr Sandie Bohin, one of two paediatric experts brought in by the prosecution, was questioned in detail about the drain fitted by Dr Jayaram. Nick Johnson KC, prosecuting, asked whether the tip of the drain might have interfered with the baby's heart or vagal nerve and therefore account for her two subsequent collapses.

Having viewed a series of x-ray images shown to the jury, the paediatrician replied: 'If the tip of a drain is abutting structures in the centre of the chest, that can cause – although I've never seen it – a failing heart rate and desaturation. 'But although it had moved, it hadn't moved after the x-ray on September 26, so I don't think that drain can be the cause of the collapses. By then it had been secured'.

Medics left needle inside baby's chest, Lucy Letby trial hears

The prosecution alleges Lucy Letby, 33, somehow sabotaged the infant's treatment on two separate occasions on successive night shifts in the neonatal unit of the Countess of Chester Hospital.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Dotta]

Another confusing day from the write up.

In regards to the chest drain fitted by Dr Jayaram. The defence are going with the fact it was fitted in a "sub-optimal" position but we heard today it was fitted in an emergency procedure as a life saving aid. And it did just that.

Also what are the facts regarding Dr Jayaram's intended position when he was doing this procedure? The evidence seems to suggest a build up of air in a lower position and therefore it was his intention to insert it as he did.

There seems to be a focus on a medication that was delayed and helps to relax the lungs. Not sure what to make of this?

Is it sub-optimal care?

or the medical team acting in the moment to an emergency situation created by sabotage?


Dr Bohin says that regardless of this, it would certainly have not have caused a cardiac arrest

So what could have caused the cardiac arrest?

Im not even sure if it is from today or yesterday.
Shouldn't it be about Baby I?
But I sent the latest report - in fact it was only 7 mins "old" when I posted it

 

[ColourPurple]

Im not even sure if it is from today or yesterday.
Shouldn't it be about Baby I?
But I sent the latest report - in fact it was only 7 mins "old" when I posted it

I think it is the right one as I think they were continuing with Baby H today.

Amazing to hear that after how poorly she was and being resuscitated twice, she's now a fit and healthy seven year old

 

[Sweeper2000]

Child H is curious, certainly doesn’t make the hospital unit look good Especially with the dramatic recovery at arrowe.

so I am wondering what the alleged method was in the case of child H. presumably if any symptoms fitted with bolus of air in any form we would have heard of it or indeed any implicative symptoms at all? Or explanation or possible suggestions for why the baby collapsed from the medical experts.

could it read “because we can’t explain it we are going to blame someone“?

 

[Becci]

"The paediatrician agreed that there had been delays in intubating Baby H and in giving her surfactant, a protein used to help relax an infant's lungs. The latter delay meant that when the baby was ventilated the increased air pressure needed had the effect of worsening her pneumothorax"...

She said the butterfly needle left inside the baby's chest might have punctured lung tissue and contributed to the ongoing pneumothorax. Mr Myers asked: 'Leaving a butterfly needle in situ is suboptimal practice, isn't it?'

Dr Bohin replied: 'Yes, because it's hazardous'.She rejected Mr Myers' suggestion that the explanation for Baby H's two mystery collapses might have been the cumulative effect of a series of procedures she had been through. 'A baby will desaturate as the result of an event, but it's not cumulative and it certainly doesn't cause a cardiac arrest'.

Sounds like they definitely should have given the lung medication etc sooner, and that not doing so could have worsened the pneumothorax but none of the doctors/medical experts have said that the delay was connected to the two major collapses where Baby H went into cardiac arrest. And it looks like the butterfly needle being left in could also have contributed to the pneumothorax but also would not have led to to the two major collapses.

I think the chest drain being in the "wrong " place is a bit of a red herring as DR Jayaram explained that there was already a drain inserted in the optimal place, and that he inserted a second one lower down as that's where the air seemed to be accumulating.. and that it worked at the time. I can't help wondering if somebody was already trying to sabotage the drains before the two major collapses but as the charges are only in relation to the big collapses that's just me speculating. But we've heard one doctor say they'd never seen a baby block the tubes as much as Baby H and another say they had never had to use three drains on a baby in their whole medical career.


ETA the info re the 2nd drain

Today Dr Sandie Bohin, one of two paediatric experts brought in by the prosecution, was questioned in detail about the drain fitted by Dr Jayaram. Nick Johnson KC, prosecuting, asked whether the tip of the drain might have interfered with the baby's heart or vagal nerve and therefore account for her two subsequent collapses.

Having viewed a series of x-ray images shown to the jury, the paediatrician replied: 'If the tip of a drain is abutting structures in the centre of the chest, that can cause – although I've never seen it – a failing heart rate and desaturation. 'But although it had moved, it hadn't moved after the x-ray on September 26, so I don't think that drain can be the cause of the collapses. By then it had been secured'.

Medics left needle inside baby's chest, Lucy Letby trial hears

The prosecution alleges Lucy Letby, 33, somehow sabotaged the infant's treatment on two separate occasions on successive night shifts in the neonatal unit of the Countess of Chester Hospital.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Hi at the beginning of what you say who is the pediatrician do u know ? Thanks

 

[Becci]

Child H is curious, certainly doesn’t make the hospital unit look good Especially with the dramatic recovery at arrowe.

so I am wondering what the alleged method was in the case of child H. presumably if any symptoms fitted with bolus of air in any form we would have heard of it or indeed any implicative symptoms at all? Or explanation or possible suggestions for why the baby collapsed from the medical experts.

could it read “because we can’t explain it we are going to blame someone“?

& that someone is certainly not the "tv doctor".

 

[Becci]

Hi at the beginning of what you say who is the pediatrician do u know ? Thanks

Sorry was only saying that because if its dr j that sounds cheesy as when its him under fire.
He's "TV doctor" when he's talking about LL loll

 

[Sweeper2000]

@mart321

“So what could have caused the cardiac arrest?”

I thought that as well.

“Additionally, Child H "was put on a ventilator she was not paralysed; she was also left with butterfly needles in her chest for prolonged periods which may have punctured her lung tissues and contributed to further punctured lungs."

Recap: Prosecution opens trial of Lucy Letby accused of Countess of Chester Hospital baby murders

THE trial of former Countess of Chester Hospital nurse Lucy Letby, who is accused of multiple baby murders, is due to finalise its jury and hear…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

<modsnip - not in evidence>

 

[Sweeper2000]

Furthering my earlier question that air embolism should have been noticed sooner with the reason given being no one thought someone could be deliberately harming the babies not being valid after this quote. Many doctors and many nurses not seeing something that is by all accounts standard and daily practice doesn’t stand IMO.

“She believed the only plausible explanation was an air embolism in the infant's body that had been caused either accidentally or deliberately.”

Lucy Letby trial hears injection of just 5ml of air 'murdered' baby

One of the babies allegedly murdered by neonatal nurse Lucy Letby was killed by an injection of a 'spoonful' of air, a paediatrician told her Manchester trial today.

www.dailymail.co.uk

also something else to consider about one of the more unusual aspects in the evidence.

when police interviewed LL she said she didn’t know exactly what an air embolism was. I would have thought the police would ask her questions in regards to what it is that she doesn’t know. If the police knew that AE was a suspected c.o.d I would have thought it would be standard protocol to gain as much info about what it is she does and doesn’t know. I’m wondering if that interview will be covered in evidence?

 

[Becci]

Up thread i asked a question & responded to myself derrr i can't erase it so pls ignore

"The paediatrician agreed that there had been delays in intubating Baby H and in giving her surfactant, a protein used to help relax an infant's lungs. The latter delay meant that when the baby was ventilated the increased air pressure needed had the effect of worsening her pneumothorax"...

She said the butterfly needle left inside the baby's chest might have punctured lung tissue and contributed to the ongoing pneumothorax. Mr Myers asked: 'Leaving a butterfly needle in situ is suboptimal practice, isn't it?'

Dr Bohin replied: 'Yes, because it's hazardous'.She rejected Mr Myers' suggestion that the explanation for Baby H's two mystery collapses might have been the cumulative effect of a series of procedures she had been through. 'A baby will desaturate as the result of an event, but it's not cumulative and it certainly doesn't cause a cardiac arrest'.

Sounds like they definitely should have given the lung medication etc sooner, and that not doing so could have worsened the pneumothorax but none of the doctors/medical experts have said that the delay was connected to the two major collapses where Baby H went into cardiac arrest. And it looks like the butterfly needle being left in could also have contributed to the pneumothorax but also would not have led to to the two major collapses.

I think the chest drain being in the "wrong " place is a bit of a red herring as DR Jayaram explained that there was already a drain inserted in the optimal place, and that he inserted a second one lower down as that's where the air seemed to be accumulating.. and that it worked at the time. I can't help wondering if somebody was already trying to sabotage the drains before the two major collapses but as the charges are only in relation to the big collapses that's just me speculating. But we've heard one doctor say they'd never seen a baby block the tubes as much as Baby H and another say they had never had to use three drains on a baby in their whole medical career.


ETA the info re the 2nd drain

Today Dr Sandie Bohin, one of two paediatric experts brought in by the prosecution, was questioned in detail about the drain fitted by Dr Jayaram. Nick Johnson KC, prosecuting, asked whether the tip of the drain might have interfered with the baby's heart or vagal nerve and therefore account for her two subsequent collapses.

Having viewed a series of x-ray images shown to the jury, the paediatrician replied: 'If the tip of a drain is abutting structures in the centre of the chest, that can cause – although I've never seen it – a failing heart rate and desaturation. 'But although it had moved, it hadn't moved after the x-ray on September 26, so I don't think that drain can be the cause of the collapses. By then it had been secured'.

Medics left needle inside baby's chest, Lucy Letby trial hears

The prosecution alleges Lucy Letby, 33, somehow sabotaged the infant's treatment on two separate occasions on successive night shifts in the neonatal unit of the Countess of Chester Hospital.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Ignore my question its dr bohin