UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #9

[ColourPurple]

in my personal opinion they are trophies/souvenirs but this is entirely my own thoughts

Interesting . I didn't realise there was a difference:

"First of all, the FBI distinguishes between “souvenirs” and “trophies,”... A souvenir is an item used to fuel a fantasy, while a trophy is taken as proof of their skill. However, the end goal is the same, the authors note: It allows killers to feel powerful and relieve their crimes as a fantasy..."

www.oxygen.com/mark-of-a-serial-killer/crime-news/why-do-serial-killers-take-trophies

Interesting too:

"Many types of criminals will keep "trophies" or "Souvenirs" as a memento of their crime. In most cases these same items will be used against them later as evidence and direct links to their involvement of the crimes. In many instances directly helping the court to get the conviction of guilty.But why do criminals do this? It seems like a strange thing to do especially in cases where the person has made extra efforts in other areas not to get caught..

Their successful crimes are achievements, in the eyes of a criminal they are worth remembering and what better way to remember than to keep a piece of it for yourself that you can look back on and relive the moment.The items are valuable to the criminal in some way, as discussed above it could be to relive the moment, it could be for pride to display, it could be for gratification or even comfort...

Many serial killers keep forms of ID such as library cards or train/bus passes, things you might find in a persons wallet or pocket. This is a permanent reminder of the events leading up to that persons death, its a personal connection to them for the Killer and in many ways is symbolic of the perceived relationship they have with their victims. As is any trophy killer might take."

A killer and their trophies

Criminal Behaviours explores why criminals keep trophies of their crimes. Many types of criminals will keep "trophies" or "Souvenirs" as a memento of their crime. In most cases these same items will be used against them later as evidence and direct links to their involvement of the crimes. In...

www.criminalbehaviours.com

.

 

[Sundial]

@LadyEdgeworth
“especially as she moved house during this period so handover sheets from before her move were found in her new house meaning she brought them with her.”

Exactly this is what troubles me. Moo

 

[Sundial]

I can't recall all the babies whose medical records were found in her home but she kept the handover sheet for Baby Q who survived an alleged murder attempt and the handover sheet for Baby Q who also survived an alleged murder attempt. It's making me wonder rather than them containing information she didn't want others to see, maybe, IF GUILTY, she kept them either as:

A) Some kind of trophy to remind her of the attempts. If the baby died then the date of the death was already a permanent reminder of the death, along with pics she took of deceased babies, or of their surviving sibling with the deceased baby's teddy, or sympathy cards she sent, or posts she might be able to see from their families on Facebook on the anniversary or on other important dates. But if the baby survived she had no such reminder of her alleged attempt to end their lives.
B) Some kind of learning , a record of what things hadn't worked to take into account in future attempts on other babies.

All IMO


ETA- Baby M was another baby whose medical notes were found in her home. He is also a baby who survived an alleged murder attempt.

"Mr Johnson said child M came “close to death” after his heart rate and breathing dropped dramatically without warning but went on to make a speedy recovery.

When Lucy Letby’s home, then in Chester, was searched two years later, medical notes were found detailing how many doses of adrenaline were given to child M during his collapse.

A note of his collapse was also recorded in her diary, the court heard."

Lucy Letby: what has the court heard so far in trial of Hereford nurse?

A HEREFORD nurse was allegedly interrupted by the mother of a victim as she attacked the baby in the neo-natal unit of the hospital where she worked.

www.herefordtimes.com

Interestingly, your point B, (whilst absolutely valid) I struggle to understand how (if guilty) if that reason was suggested by LL or the defence how it would stand up in court.

A qualified nurse who took additional specialist training to fulfil her role. Yet there are actually additional training days throughout this type of career in the uk (a refresher if you will/keeping your portfolio and skills valid in line not only with nursing register requirements but also by specific trusts even months and years after qualifying.
There are debriefings, appraisals, additional training, secondments and recommendations for further training by senior staff (which can also be requested by an individual too) and skills days etc. Some training days are actually compulsory and can face suspension/action/questioning if not attended by managers or more senior staff.

IMO I see very little point they (defence or LL) would reason any kind of learning point from holding onto such records when there are so many opportunities to address this with her manager; unless she genuinely was that incompetent or too embarrassed to ask. At most it is misconduct in and of itself not seeking such support/additional training from someone who is allegedly “qualified” whilst delivering care that puts others directly at risk of harm. MOO

 

[ColourPurple]

Interestingly, your point B, (whilst absolutely valid) I struggle to understand how (if guilty) if that reason was suggested by LL or the defence how it would stand up in court.

A qualified nurse who took additional specialist training to fulfil her role. Yet there are actually additional training days throughout this type of career in the uk (a refresher if you will/keeping your portfolio and skills valid in line not only with nursing register requirements but also by specific trusts even months and years after qualifying.
There are debriefings, appraisals, additional training, secondments and recommendations for further training by senior staff (which can also be requested by an individual too) and skills days etc. Some training days are actually compulsory and can face suspension/action/questioning if not attended by managers or more senior staff.

IMO I see very little point they (defence or LL) would reason any kind of learning point from holding onto such records when there are so many opportunities to address this with her manager; unless she genuinely was that incompetent or too embarrassed to ask. At most it is misconduct in and of itself not seeking such support/additional training from someone who is allegedly “qualified” whilst delivering care that puts others directly at risk of harm. MOO

I didn't mean she may have kept the medical notes as a learning tool to improve her nursing skills. I meant, IF GUILTY, as three of the medical notes found related to babies who had survived her alleged murder attempts, she may have kept them as a learning tool to ensure that she was successful in her next alleged murder attempt.

Not sure if any notes were found that related to babies who were murdered, but the three I'm aware of all related to babies who survived the alleged murder attempts.

 

[Sundial]

I didn't mean she may have kept the medical notes as a learning tool to improve her nursing skills. I meant, IF GUILTY, as three of the medical notes found related to babies who had survived her alleged murder attempts, she may have kept them as a learning tool to ensure that she was successful in her next alleged murder attempt.

Not sure if any notes were found that related to babies who were murdered, but the three I'm aware of all related to babies who survived the alleged murder attempts.

Oh for sure I absolutely agree with you. But also as an additional point really (for those who might not be aware) that there is no excuse to keep such records when there are ample opportunities to request (or be referred) and compulsory training days that last throughout this type of career. Some people might not be aware that even after qualifying there are still training days that are part of the role that should and need to be taken. Some are actually compulsory for nurses and doctors alike.
Like you say, point B cannot be for learning because she doesn’t know her job/incompetent with so much training even post-qualifying, but for a personal reason (if guilty) IMO

 

[Kasmeer]

especially as she moved house during this period so handover sheets from before her move were found in her new house meaning she brought them with her.

I know we’ve had some good input over the threads from workers who do admit it’s possible to take them home by mistake but surely if you realised, you could take them back and bin them, or rip them up and bin them at home. There’s no innocent reason why they’d be boxed up and moved in my opinion and i’m a very slovenly person lol.

I guess I must be even more slovenly then, as I have no difficulty seeing how it can happen innocently, having packed and moved plenty of unnecessary things myself in the past! Simple enough; I have a habit of dumping all my paperwork in a pile to sort out and file properly "later", which can take a while. So if it's in a pile with a lot of actually useful papers, then the whole pile gets packed without being looked at - I have a lot of larger items to pack and do not have time or energy to pick through every single piece of paper to see if one or two aren't needed. Of course if she's a minimalist super-organised person with only a few boxes to fill, then my situation is less likely, but we don't know enough about her to judge that yet.

My question is, how many handover sheets did she have in total, and how many were for babies in this case? If all or most were in this case, that's very telling; if plenty of random others with no unusual health problems are also found, the carelessness argument is more of a possibility. A pity that information hasn't been shared as it would give very useful context.

 

[katydid23]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

I am sure that there are plenty of clusters or surges that do not correspond to criminal behaviour. Actual criminality within neonatal units is probably way less than .1%.

However this alleged pattern was prominent for 12 long months and allegedly involved 15 babies. It is not just a random cluster involving a few patients over a short period of time.

Babies without diabetes do not just suddenly have severe blood sugar problems if there is not an insulin injection. No one was imagining these effects upon their blood. Someone injected them with insulin, and that is not a biased or distorted view.

Newborn premature babies do not projectile vomit three times the amount of their scheduled feeding unless someone purposely overfed them. It is not 'confirmation bias' to come to that conclusion.

<modsnip: Quoted/referenced info was removed> JMO

 

[katydid23]

Supposedly the trial begins again this morning. I hope it does. We'll see...

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

Good Morning guys! Is it weird to say I've missed you lol? Hopefully should be back at trial today, I'm just waiting to see if Chester Standard post anything so I can do the live updates today.

 

[katydid23]

https://twitter.com/InJDWeStan

Hey
@MrDanDonoghue

@Tom_Mullen
is the Lucy Letby trial sitting today? X


3:04 AM · Jan 9, 2023





Dan O'Donoghue


Replying to
@InJDWeStan
and
@Tom_Mullen
Hi, it’s back on tomorrow

 

[BabaVanga]

Happy new year everyone <3

 

[Marantz4250b]

Lucy Letby: Trial of baby murder-accused nurse to resume this week

Lucy Letby, 33, originally from Hereford, denies murdering seven babies and trying to murder 10 others at the Countess of Chester Hospital between…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Letby, 33, originally from Hereford, denies murdering seven babies and trying to murder 10 others at the Countess of Chester Hospital between June 2015 and June 2016.

She's had a birthday. I suspected it was round the back end of the year going from the reports over the years.

Edit: article goes on to day that it resumes tomorrow. The court definitely said the 9th, though. I wonder if there are legal discussions of some nature going on?

 

[Tortoise]

Lucy Letby: Trial of baby murder-accused nurse to resume this week

Lucy Letby, 33, originally from Hereford, denies murdering seven babies and trying to murder 10 others at the Countess of Chester Hospital between…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Letby, 33, originally from Hereford, denies murdering seven babies and trying to murder 10 others at the Countess of Chester Hospital between June 2015 and June 2016.

She's had a birthday. I suspected it was round the back end of the year going from the reports over the years.

Edit: article goes on to day that it resumes tomorrow. The court definitely said the 9th, though. I wonder if there are legal discussions of some nature going on?

Her birthday was 4th January. (source Trial of Lucy Letby, 32, will start today)

Yes it does say it resumed at 10.30 this morning on Law Pages. Probably legal business going on, like scheduling or argument, I would think.

​

Manchester Crown Court​	7​	T20217088​	Lucy Letby​
Details: Trial (Part Heard) - 10:30

https://www.thelawpages.com/court-hearings-lists/Manchester-Crown-Court.php

 

[Parker Knoll]

I suspect legal argument again today …. Resuming from when it abruptly stopped the last sitting day. I find this slightly concerning tbh.
It does happen in trials of this magnitude but still, nothing sits right with this case to me.

 

[Supernovae]

I was going to say that there it wasn't listed on Law Pages today (which it wasn't when I checked earlier) but it is now.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I suspect legal argument again today …. Resuming from when it abruptly stopped the last sitting day. I find this slightly concerning tbh.
It does happen in trials of this magnitude but still, nothing sits right with this case to me.

I agree. There is a pretty radical theory I have as to what may be happening but I won't air it publicly.

Absolutely nothing would surprise me with this case. From the day she was first arrested this has just been the most bizarre case I've ever heard of!

 

[Marantz4250b]

So, I wonder whether we'll actually see things restart today?

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

9:04am

This is the first day of evidence to be heard before the jury at Manchester Crown Court since the trial was adjourned for the Christmas and New Year break.
The trial, which began in October, is expected to last six months.

10:17am

The court is in a legal discussion.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, January 10 curtailed due to juror absence

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

10:31am

The jury are being brought in.
There are only 10 members of the jury in attendance today, out of the required 12.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, January 10 curtailed due to juror absence

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

ffs... where is this going