GUILTY UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 7 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 6 hung re attempted #31

[Tortoise]

Do we know for a fact that he was not divorced at the time of the relationship with LL?

This was from her cross-exam -

Dan O'Donoghue
@MrDanDonoghue
·
2h

There is interactions with a doctor, who cannot be named for legal reasons - the pair went on 'away day' to London together in June 2017. Mr Johnson asks if they stayed over, she says no - he asks if the doctor was her boyfriend

Dan O'Donoghue
@MrDanDonoghue
·
2h

Mr Johnson pulls up messages after the trip were they've exchanged heart emojis - she says '(the doctor) is a married man, it was not a relationship at all it was a friendship'

 

[iamshadow21]

What took so long to come to a guilty verdict?

Twenty two interconnected charges of murder and attempted murder, with a high degree of technical medical knowledge needed to be conveyed for the jury to understand the environment, the challenges, and what is typical and not typical in a neonatal unit? A ten month trial with vast amounts of information to be processed and distilled into verdicts that adhere with the law?

Given that they had twenty two charges and deliberated for about 110 hours, that shakes out at only about five hours per charge. That's not slow.

MOO

 

[grj373]

View attachment 441802
A staff chart showed that Lucy Letby was present at every chilling incident involving children on the ward

All the missed chances to stop evil nurse Lucy Letby murdering babies

On up to ten occasions, suspicions were raised or events happened that linked her to the spike in deaths or collapses on the Countess of Chester Hospital's neo-natal unit.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Only issue I have with this chart is it doesn't show incidents that happened when letby was not present I don't think. Would be interesting to see how few incidents there were when she was not present

 

[katydid23]

That is completely incorrect as regards Allitt. She was an absolute lunatic, had very few friends, was known to be violent and anti-social, domestic abuse against a boyfriend, barred from the local pub too, I think.

She barely made it through her nursing training and had just about the worst attendance record of any trainee ever. I believe she was within a day of failing for lack of attendance.

Allit was a million miles away from being compassionate by any measure.

I just saw this article:

Another interesting read

Forensic psychologist gives terrifying verdict on Lucy Letby's sickening crimes

Professor Mike Berry, of Liverpool’s John Moores University says there are many similarities between killed nurses Lucy Letby and Beverley Allitt, who was jailed for life in 1991

www.mirror.co.uk

Professor Mike Berry, of Liverpool’s John Moores University says there are many similarities between killed nurses Lucy Letby and Beverley Allitt, who was jailed for life in 1991

“Both nurses worked with babies, although Allitt did also kill an 11 year old boy. Neither woman was involved in a meaningful, emotionally satisfying relationship at the time, and both were seeking attention. Both denied their responsibility for the deaths and may never do so.

“Like Allitt, Letby stole hospital notes relating to her victims and they both showed an over-attachment to the babies, as shown by post death behaviour towards the parents.

"...
it may be that they are playing the role of an ‘Angel of Death’, exerting a ’god-like’ power and control over life.

“They had power and control over highly vulnerable individuals, babies, who cannot verbally complain.

“Or maybe it was for the pure hell of it, for the ‘fun’ of it. With Letby there does not appear to be any of the usual motives for murder. There are no sexual, financial, revenge, religious, political or racial reasons and there was no impulsive anger which could not be controlled.”

 

[katydid23]

Only issue I have with this chart is it doesn't show incidents that happened when letby was not present I don't think

Dr Breary has said there were no unexplained incidents in which LL was not present.

 

[Anxala]

A good read here from Judith Moritz/BBC who, despite being in court from the off, has no clearer a pic of LL now than she had at the beginning of the trial 10 months ago.

What I learned about Lucy Letby after 10 months in court

The nurse was questioned for nearly 60 hours - the BBC's Judith Moritz watched it all.

www.bbc.com

 

[notsure]

A good read here from Judith Moritz/BBC who, despite being in court from the off, has no clearer a pic of LL now than she had at the beginning of the trial 10 months ago.

What I learned about Lucy Letby after 10 months in court

The nurse was questioned for nearly 60 hours - the BBC's Judith Moritz watched it all.

www.bbc.com

It is interesting. If Judith was there for the whole trial, presumably she'd heard everything the jury had heard, yet she had no opinion as to her guilt or innocence.

 

[LadyL]

None of the babies died from insulin poisoning. Two were poisoned but recovered. The murdered babies died from various methods---air embolisms from air injected into the lines, blunt force traumas to internal organs and being force fed way too much.

Omg just omg. How could she.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

I could understand maybe a mother writing a letter on behalf of her daughter's pets if said daughter was a young child, but for an adult daughter?

Many people treat pets in this way, as members of the family. Many people say their pets are like "babies" to them. Her mother was just showing appreciation for her beloved "grand-cat" with a cutsie card, IMO. I don't think it says anything about their family dynamic.

Her parents haven't done anything "wrong," in my opinion. Even if they "spoiled" her, got involved when they thought she was being mistreated at work, stifled her independence somewhat, were in denial ... this stuff isn't uncommon in families.

Parents sometimes try to work out their own childhood pain by raising their own children in ways they weren't raised. Maybe they take it a bit too far. But they had no way to know what she was or what she would become, and her actions weren't their fault. (I'll stand corrected if there's something big we learn that I'm not taking into account.)

I think they should be left alone. They in a very painful unimaginable position.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I know this isn’t going to be a popular opinion, but I don’t think she murdered because had this uncontrollable urge to harm innocent tiny babies. For me, I think it was more a means to an end for her.
She enjoyed the attention it gave her. For the first time in her life (we heard she wasn’t popular at school, doesn’t seem to have had much male attention etc) she was the centre of attention. from her colleagues, (you’re having such a bad run, are you okay? How are you?) from dr choc (poor lucy, here’s some chocolate for you) and she probably found it exciting and even thrilling. It gave her something to talk about all the time. she texted about it non stop. Even to her mum (just lost another one overnight, it’s so sad) almost like she was baiting for people to sympathise with her, tell her how strong she was, how good of a nurse she was. And they did exactly that!

She wasn't unpopular at school. She may not have had a huge circle of friends but she did have a regular crowd she hung out with. One of her best friends was interviewed on the BBC programme last night.

She had a very active social life, something which was plainly evident from the pics of her which were on every report about her. Her flatmate said that if she wasn't on shift she'd be out socialising and she'd barely see her.

Whatever, her motivations were it wasn't as simple as pure attention seeking, I don't think. It's much more convoluted than that.

 

[Officer Dibble]

A good read here from Judith Moritz/BBC who, despite being in court from the off, has no clearer a pic of LL now than she had at the beginning of the trial 10 months ago.

What I learned about Lucy Letby after 10 months in court

The nurse was questioned for nearly 60 hours - the BBC's Judith Moritz watched it all.

www.bbc.com

"Two books sat by Letby's bedside. In Shock, a doctor's memoir about being dangerously ill after a miscarriage, and Never Greener, a novel about a young woman who had an affair with a married man."

Interesting!

 

[Honeybirdette]

She wasn't unpopular at school. She may not have had a huge circle of friends but she did have a regular crowd she hung out with. One of her best friends was interviewed on the BBC programme last night.

She had a very active social life, something which was plainly evident from the pics of her which were on every report about her. Her flatmate said that if she wasn't on shift she'd be out socialising and she'd barely see her.

Whatever, her motivations were it wasn't as simple as pure attention seeking, I don't think. It's much more convoluted than that.

Dawn was immediately warm and likeable. We went for a drive and she pointed out the cathedral green where she and Letby used to hang out, and their favourite restaurants.
"That's where we used to spend lunch times, away from all the popular kids," Dawn told me as we drove past the geography block of their old school.
"You weren't popular?" I asked.
She laughed. "No, we were the nerdy ones that concentrated on our studies, and didn't mess around in the lessons."

What I learned about Lucy Letby after 10 months in court - BBC News

The nurse was questioned for nearly 60 hours - the BBC's Judith Moritz watched it all.

www.bbc.com

 

[MissTilly]

I just saw this article:

Professor Mike Berry, of Liverpool’s John Moores University says there are many similarities between killed nurses Lucy Letby and Beverley Allitt, who was jailed for life in 1991

rsbm
i also see a lot of similarities to Genene Jones, a PICU/NICU nurse from Texas
Jones began by making babies and other nonverbal children sick so that she could be a heroine and “save” them
i wonder if the motivation was a combination of adrenaline rush and attention
moo

 

[Tortoise]

It is interesting. If Judith was there for the whole trial, presumably she'd heard everything the jury had heard, yet she had no opinion as to her guilt or innocence.

She wasn't there for the vast majority of the trial.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I know this isn’t going to be a popular opinion, but I don’t think she murdered because had this uncontrollable urge to harm innocent tiny babies. For me, I think it was more a means to an end for her.
She enjoyed the attention it gave her. For the first time in her life (we heard she wasn’t popular at school, doesn’t seem to have had much male attention etc) she was the centre of attention. from her colleagues, (you’re having such a bad run, are you okay? How are you?) from dr choc (poor lucy, here’s some chocolate for you) and she probably found it exciting and even thrilling. It gave her something to talk about all the time. she texted about it non stop. Even to her mum (just lost another one overnight, it’s so sad) almost like she was baiting for people to sympathise with her, tell her how strong she was, how good of a nurse she was. And they did exactly that!

This is what I 100% believe. It sounds bizarre to say, but this was not about the babies it was about the effect that having a baby in crisis created and having a dead baby created - she would be at the centre of it all, having agency over it, and being the focus of admiration and attention, thank you so much for trying so hard to save our baby, thank you so much for doing everything you did for our baby in the short time he was alive, and Doc Choc rewarding her with comforting assuring words and intimacy. Those things were the 'prizes' for her, the pay out as it's called in Game Theory.

If she could have won the same prize and got the same payouts by smashing a window or blocking a drain or setting fire to a mattress, she would have done. The babies were just a mechanism, tragically, it was never about them, it wasn't to hurt them, it was to get the end result at any cost. People who hurt other living beings to get an end result pay out are sociopaths because they have no conscious and no empathy.

If she wanted to be admired and praised, why not just go the 'normal route' and study hard and get really well qualified and bring herself to attention the right ways? Because she's on the Cluster B of personality disorder in my opinion and didn't find life exciting enough, she needed immediate gratification (that's the compulsion), instant effect, instant drama, and high intense drama (hystrionic) then she could play around manipulating the 'drama triange' - victim / persecutor / rescuer - to effect. Sadly this is all very Cluster B and the fact she tortured and hurt and murdered tiny babies puts her in the dark triad / dark triad category.

 

[marynnu]

Only issue I have with this chart is it doesn't show incidents that happened when letby was not present I don't think. Would be interesting to see how few incidents there were when she was not present

She was on duty for all the 13 deaths 2015-16 apparently.

 

[Tortoise]

Apologies I missed all of yesterday's post-verdict posts and I'm only now catching up. I don't know if this has been posted or not -

Hospital bosses ignored months of doctors' warnings about Lucy Letby

Hospital bosses failed to investigate allegations and tried to silence doctors, BBC investigation finds.

www.bbc.co.uk

"The BBC investigation also found:

<snipped>

• As well as the seven murder convictions, Letby was on duty for another six baby deaths at the hospital - and the police have widened their investigation

https://www.itv.com/news/2023-08-18/families-of-lucy-letbys-victims-vow-to-continue-the-search-for-answers

There were 13 deaths on the neonatal unit where she worked over a one-year period, which is five times the usual rate, and the nurse was on duty for all of them.

 

[Legal]

More interesting information in this article. It seems when she was relegated to the admin role, it gave her a chance to cosy up to senior management. Was she just manipulating them, or were there other reasons they were so keen to put themselves on the line for a band 5 nurse, believing her over 7 experienced consultants? The whole thing baffles me tbh!


September 2016

Letby was told about the consultants’ concerns by her RCN representative and submitted a formal grievance about her removal from ward duties.

HSJ understands the consultants have alleged that Letby was able to develop relationships with senior trust executives whilst working in the patient safety team, which may have clouded their judgement.

The consultants have also claimed Mr Chambers at one point met Letby in a café. Mr Chambers said his only meetings with Letby were formal, but said there was one occasion when “she happened to be in the same coffee shop I was in with some senior colleagues…We said nothing other than hello. It is wrong to characterise such a brief and chance encounter as inappropriate”.

Revealed: How trust execs resisted concerns over Letby

Trust bosses questioned the integrity of doctors who first raised concerns about a nurse who has now been convicted of murdering seven babies, and forced the medics to apologise to her, an HSJ investigation has established.

www.hsj.co.uk

 

[Dotta]

A good read here from Judith Moritz/BBC who, despite being in court from the off, has no clearer a pic of LL now than she had at the beginning of the trial 10 months ago.

What I learned about Lucy Letby after 10 months in court

The nurse was questioned for nearly 60 hours - the BBC's Judith Moritz watched it all.

www.bbc.com

"There were even moments when she tried to outsmart Johnson. Those never ended well."

This quote made me laugh really hard
Hahaha

 

[katydid23]

It is interesting. If Judith was there for the whole trial, presumably she'd heard everything the jury had heard, yet she had no opinion as to her guilt or innocence.

I did not get from the article, that the author had no opinion about LL's guilt or innocence. There were several times in the article that she implied that the prosecution proved their case.

To me, the point of the article was that the author couldn't figure out who LL really was or WHY she did this. That is how I interpreted it anyway. JMO