GUILTY UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 7 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 6 hung re attempted #32

[Nali87]

Tony Chambers is now blame the doctors; ”
‘However, Chambers appeared to blame senior doctors for failing to spot that two newborn boys had been poisoned with insulin in attacks on 5 August 2015 and eight months later on 9 April 2016.

In both cases, the results of blood tests were reported back to the neonatal unit but their significance appears to have been missed at the time.

The results were uncovered nearly two years later when Dr Stephen Brearey, the lead consultant paediatricianon the unit, was asked by police to examine the records of twins and triplets as part of the police investigation.

Chambers said: “These blood test results were the only strong evidence of potential harm and would have materially altered the focus of subsequent inquiries and actions if they had been raised with me or any other senior manager in August 2015.””

If you had involved the police early, Mr Chambers, they would have been discovered much sooner!

Hospital chief claims he acted ‘promptly’ to move Letby off ward

Tony Chambers says he was not aware of serious concerns being raised until June 2016 – a year after the nurse was linked to a series of unusual infant deaths

www.theguardian.com

 

[Stella123]

I believe union type reps were involved and once it was a case of the trust seeming to be victimising a member of staff, it scared them. They were all about their reputation. Corruption and bureaucracy at the core and a lack of concern for patient wellbeing.

 

[Nali87]

We may never know why:

”Like most of the serial killers I have worked with and studied, Letby has been silent about what might have driven her to kill. In that respect she is like our worst British serial killer, Dr Harold Shipman, who also maintained his innocence and refused to accept any responsibility for the deaths of at least 215 of his often elderly female patients. [..] Even after an exhaustive inquiry by Dame Janet Smith, which reported in 2002, she had nothing much to say on the motivation question. Smith admitted that neither she nor her team could “gain any real insight into Shipman’s character” and had been unable to “attempt any detailed explanation of the psychological factors underlying Shipman’s conduct”.

Shipman was popular in the community in Hyde, Greater Manchester, where he practiced, and was seen by most as a trusted and “old-fashioned” doctor. When he was first arrested and charged his patients even set up a fund to pay for his legal expenses. The disbelief that such a popular doctor could also murder his patients is perhaps the fault of yet another media cliché, where serial killers are dysfunctional loners and frankly so odd that they might as well have horns on their heads and a long, pointed tail. If only it were that easy.”

Lucy Letby confirms yet confounds our ideas of a serial killer | David Wilson

Her silence is a hallmark of the serial killer, but ‘beige’ nurse did not display the usual warning signs

www.theguardian.com

 

[iamshadow21]

Tony Chambers is now blame the doctors; ”
‘However, Chambers appeared to blame senior doctors for failing to spot that two newborn boys had been poisoned with insulin in attacks on 5 August 2015 and eight months later on 9 April 2016.

In both cases, the results of blood tests were reported back to the neonatal unit but their significance appears to have been missed at the time.

The results were uncovered nearly two years later when Dr Stephen Brearey, the lead consultant paediatricianon the unit, was asked by police to examine the records of twins and triplets as part of the police investigation.

Chambers said: “These blood test results were the only strong evidence of potential harm and would have materially altered the focus of subsequent inquiries and actions if they had been raised with me or any other senior manager in August 2015.””

If you had involved the police early, Mr Chambers, they would have been discovered much sooner!

Hospital chief claims he acted ‘promptly’ to move Letby off ward

Tony Chambers says he was not aware of serious concerns being raised until June 2016 – a year after the nurse was linked to a series of unusual infant deaths

www.theguardian.com

Looks like they worked out, like we did, that there were a lot of sets of multiples in there. I think, in addition to the obvious ones, I read that one of the 'singlet' babies was actually the surviving one of twins - they'd lost the second baby at some point during the pregnancy, making the surviving baby especially precious.

MOO

 

[Marantz4250b]

There MAY be two Tony’s Dotta …. I’m not sure the union reps name was ever published tbh. My money is on Tony C
JMO

Definitely Tony C, imo. No question.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Anyone thought about the practicalities of forcing someone up from a cell to hear their sentence?

Police and prison officers do this in a daily. It's well practised.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I think it was Tony Chambers personally. Tony is going to contact Karen (has to be Karen Rees) It was glossed over in court because Mr Johnson assumed Tony was Letby's rep. She just said "yes"

But it wouldn't surprise me at all if it was indeed Tony Chambers as he was a Letby cheerleader (For some reason)

I think we all have a good idea as to what that reason was!

 

[JosieJo]

Like many here I’ve followed the case for a very long time. I’m sure she was guilty. I admit that when I first heard of the case, it seemed impossible that she was. The moment that it really changed for me was when the texts and what’s apps to colleagues and family started coming out, and they made my skin prickle. Her insistence that she be allowed back in the room that Baby A had died in because that’s what she was told at her previous hospital was so ridiculous, and so cleverly unprovable, it was a good line. And it made her sound like she knew more about it all than other staff since she had been through it all before etc. her comments that she didn’t feel as supported in the atmosphere as she had previously, always written with a little “x” at the end, just really set my hair on end though I couldn’t say why. I felt like I was being manipulated just reading them.

I think “grief vampire” crossed my mind but it felt like more than that. They reminded me of people I’ve known, mostly women, who seem to thrive on drama and attention that comes with disaster: people who are often in hospital or their kids are in hospital and they Instagram their hospital bracelet with some vague caption like “not how I hoped I’d be spending my night” and then everyone jumps in the comments like omg are you okay!?!?

She was slightly martyrish, slightly know it all, slightly disdainful (“the new girl had her and is devastated” really bothered me, though again I don’t know why??) and always fishing around in those conversations for something intangible that was meeting her need… yuck.

I wondered if maybe she had been someone who always felt overlooked and unspecial outside of her home where she was clearly treated as very special. Becoming a NICU nurse suddenly all kinds of impressive and powerful people put the most precious thing in their world in her hands. And they were out of their depth and she was in control. In those times in NICU, she could have everyone from a doctor (parent) or CEO to the kind of popular kids she knew at school but wasn’t one of being completely dependent on your judgement, care, thanking you profusely for keeping their baby alive, and in that situation you have a lot of SOCIAL power and EMOTIONAL power as well as the obvious life or death power. Everyone with a premie in that place is totally beholden to a highly skilled NICU nurse. It would have been a huge rush for someone who had felt perennially underestimated or overlooked.
IMO MOO - just my vibes I guess.

So much of this is how I feel.
I know very little about forensic psychology etc but my opinion/ gut instinct tells me...

The deaths / collapses were not about attention in the pure sense or even was she a grief vampire

I feel she was a callous spoilt person full of self indulgence who couldn't do wrong

I feel she hated not getting her own way.

Maybe top dog in everything she did always praised

I think these tiny babies were tools she used to prove a point when she didn't get her own way

Collapses happened when she couldn't get her own way with which room she worked in or to care for the babies who were sickest.
She imo targeted babies at times if she was frustrated with the nurse who looked after them or their parents

Collapses happened when she wanted Dr Choc on the unit or when he was with other females

I think she is a master at manipulation and gaslighting and unfortunately these babies became a tool to her.

I do not think for a minute she had a fullfilled life...she was 25 lived alone and the majority of her social activities were with colleagues..mostly much older than her.

I think work was her life and when she came back from doing the intensive care course she thought she would be the shining star and when she wasn't it ramped up.

I think she is a master manipulator who even tried to manipulate the situation when in patient safety by the grievance etc and continued to try and manipulate her way through her police interviews and her testimony on the stand

 

[JosieJo]

Many people said she came across as cocky and a smart arse on the stand. I didn't personally see cockiness, just somebody very self-assured, professional and assertive, but she certainly didn't seem defeated when I saw her, except at one point: when asked about the fact her defense say she cared for Baby J uneventfully the day after this baby was allegedly attacked. The barrister asked her to look at a record, and said who was present who wasn't there the day before? She immediately admitted, with resignation, "her parents". The record was quite complex with a lot of writing, and yet she immediately spotted the relevant information.

I actually think she doesn't know how an innocent person would act or think, and I believe that her behaviour on stand was mostly her best attempt at acting "innocent". I got the impression that she's not anywhere near as clever as she superficially appears, the actual content of her lies was primary-school levels of stupid, but she said everything with such confidence and conviction that she made it seem almost credible. She also used juvenile tactics like asking pointless questions to avoid or delay answering. Again she did this with complete confidence and calmness so that it somehow seemed believable, despite the ridiculousness.

She had got away with terrible crimes for a long time, just by acting completely cool and calm while doing terrible things, and disguising herself by pretending to be sweet, fragile and innocent the rest of the time. To me, she was just hoping to get by on the stand, the same way she'd always got away with it before.

The lies on the stand about her arrest, making a big fuss about her "PTSD", and carrying a comfort blanky, was just her default camouflage as vulnerable and delicate, and to control the situation. Her acting completely unfazed and composed, even when caught on the stand in colossal lies, it the same way she she was completely unreactive when (allegedly) caught red-handed by Dr Jayaram.

In the police interview footage that was released on Friday, I was struck by how quietly and gently she was talking - she wasn't like that the day I saw her. This is her default "harmless" mode - gentle, calm, frail, polite, quiet. When that doesn't work - such as on the stand under greater pressure - she tries to be clever with slippery politician-style answers.

The reports of her parents reading out a victim impact statement on her behalf during her successful grievance hearing seems so manipulative - like she's trying to make herself look so vulnerable and damaged by those mean consultants that she has reverted to needing parental care. Top notch victim-playing, and I just know that she would have made it seem like a 26 year old having Mummy and Daddy caping for her at a work dispute was the most reasonable thing in the world.



Just answering to this thread generally: I really, really do not think that attention-seeking was her motive. She didn't really try to show off during resuscitations or play the hero. There is a minority sub-type of Munchausen's (factitious disorder) where the individual is motivated not by wanting sympathy and attention, but by outsmarting medical professionals. I strongly believe that Letby got a thrill from "outsmarting" everybody who trusted her, which made her feel superior to these parents and doctors - duper's delight. She thrived off watching the continued grief of the parents and confusion of the doctors, as it made her feel powerful and prolonged this Munchausen's feeling of superiority. I believe she was a sadist, and psychologically sadists want power and control over their victims. I believe she got a God-like euphoria from murdering, as described by serial killer nurse Will Davis.

I also do not for one minute believe the married doctor's claims she had an "unrequited" obsession with him. He was an unfortunate-looking middle aged dad, she was a slim 26 year old, decent looking and single. She would not have looked at him twice if he wasn't already paying her attention. It's clear from his texts and his actions he was infatuated with her. I always suspected he liked her more than she did him, and she primarily just enjoyed wrapping him around her little finger. She obviously materially benefitted from his taking her on shopping trips and to restaurants. She clearly did want him there for the June 2016 cases, but this is by no means her primary motive, it was just a bonus for her in my opinion.

Absolutely

 

[DinerMite]

I was reading about how she possibly left the notes (I killed them) for police to find on purpose which makes sense considering she could have easily disposed of them but I have to ask why? Why would she even risk giving the game away by leaving them to be found?

Link to lead investigator

 

[marynnu]

This is so shocking. Just unbelievable. Why were they fighting so hard for her? I know they wanted to protect their reputation but this is just madness.

Buying her off so she didn't go public would be my guess.

 

[ColourPurple]

archive ph is your friend to beat the paywall article @link

http://archive.today/2023.08.19-231054/https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lucy-letby-files-nurse-hospital-evidence-rkxchgqh9

Thanks!!

Unbelievable! I wonder how many times her parents have come to her rescue in the past, pleading LL's innocence and accusing everybody else of bullying her.

 

[Stella123]

Three days before Christmas 2016, Letby and her parents arrived at the hospital. Chambers issued her with a full apology on behalf of the hospital trust, and assured her family that the troublesome doctors who had victimised her would be dealt with accordingly.

Toadying. Those "troublesome Doctors" cared about their patients. While I think LL managed to manipulate the situation and distract from the deaths of the babies by her claim of being victimised, the Trust put staff grievances over the safety of patients. They should be prosecuted too.

Questions I have are - even though the Doctors tried to raise this again and again. WHY weren't post mortems done if they had concerns? That could have provided evidence much earlier, via pathologists reports.

Thank you for posting this by the way (as I couldn't read it before due to paywall).

https://archive.ph/2023.08.19-231054/https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lucy-letby-files-nurse-hospital-evidence-rkxchgqh9#selection-1525.0-1525.261

 

[Stella123]

I was reading about how she possibly left the notes (I killed them) for police to find on purpose which makes sense considering she could have easily disposed of them but I have to ask why? Why would she even risk giving the game away by leaving them to be found?

I don't think she did expect them to be found. They were in her personal shrine - her own space. She was probably arrogant enough to think she could have a private life that no one would know about. So she expressed her thoughts and feelings on paper. She is still claiming to be innocent so I don't think she would deliberately leave anything for police to find. Although I take the point - she had plenty of time to destroy things like that. Maybe it was simply a mistake on her part, not thinking to destroy things.

 

[Stella123]

We may never know why:

”Like most of the serial killers I have worked with and studied, Letby has been silent about what might have driven her to kill. In that respect she is like our worst British serial killer, Dr Harold Shipman, who also maintained his innocence and refused to accept any responsibility for the deaths of at least 215 of his often elderly female patients. [..] Even after an exhaustive inquiry by Dame Janet Smith, which reported in 2002, she had nothing much to say on the motivation question. Smith admitted that neither she nor her team could “gain any real insight into Shipman’s character” and had been unable to “attempt any detailed explanation of the psychological factors underlying Shipman’s conduct”.

Shipman was popular in the community in Hyde, Greater Manchester, where he practiced, and was seen by most as a trusted and “old-fashioned” doctor. When he was first arrested and charged his patients even set up a fund to pay for his legal expenses. The disbelief that such a popular doctor could also murder his patients is perhaps the fault of yet another media cliché, where serial killers are dysfunctional loners and frankly so odd that they might as well have horns on their heads and a long, pointed tail. If only it were that easy.”

Lucy Letby confirms yet confounds our ideas of a serial killer | David Wilson

Her silence is a hallmark of the serial killer, but ‘beige’ nurse did not display the usual warning signs

www.theguardian.com

Media and societal cliches are a big issue. Society doesn't see women as potential abusers and killers. There are Mothers who harm and kill their own children, that slip beneath the radar of social services - who just believe what they say. They protect women before child safety also. There is a culture of "believe all women" also. And that is dangerous because abuse and crime have no gender. LL played on the soft female aspect.

Even a case like this, I think, unfortunately, won't change the society view that women are nice and caring and men can be bad. Hospital management has always been a big issue, but other bureaucratic organisations like social services need a big overhaul too.

 

[JosieJo]

My favourite line since the verdicts came from Dr John Gibbs ...

She said we were a "gang of four" well she was wrong we were a "gang of seven" and we were not going to give up

 

[Dotta]

I was reading about how she possibly left the notes (I killed them) for police to find on purpose which makes sense considering she could have easily disposed of them but I have to ask why? Why would she even risk giving the game away by leaving them to be found?

Maybe she wanted to be caught?
To finish this deadly game?

She doesn't struck me as a person vehemently claiming her innocence.

Her parents seemed to fight more than her.

She looked resigned as if reconciled with her fate.

JMO

 

[DinerMite]

Maybe she wanted to be caught?
To finish this deadly game?

She doesn't struck me as a person vehemently claiming her innocence.

Her parents seemed to fight more than her.
She looked resigned as if reconciled with her fate.

JMO

Oh possibly yes, I didn't think of this. It would also align with her comments about no one can help her. Although, if so, why work so hard to avoid any guilt - admittedly saying I'm guilty is a strong statement for her I'm sure but she actively avoided it otherwise. Difficult to comprehend the mind of such individual though!

 

[Dotta]

My favourite line since the verdicts came from Dr John Gibbs ...

She said we were a "gang of four" well she was wrong we were a "gang of seven" and we were not going to give up

Correction!

NJ KC coined this phrase.
But LL readily agreed.

 

[ColourPurple]

I am trying to understand what stood behind the COCH authorities being not in support of NICU doctors. I can't just blame them of being bad, or incompetent, without a known chain of wrong behaviors.

- First that comes to mind is the same I felt myself, for long time. "I can imagine a nurse killing an older patient, it happens, but a neonatal nurse killing babies? No I don't want to even believe it". (I am still torn, tbh, remembering how helpful the labor@delivery unit was to me here, in PNW. LL's case I can't emotionally process).

- if at the time of the accusation LL already had an "emotional relationship with Dr.A", it is quite possible that the situation could have been perceived as "some intra-unit shuffle and drama, something always happening there".

- it is quite possible that it could be harder to get an experienced nurse in NHS than a doctor, so the hospital bureaucracy was considering this factor, too.

- Were they simply scared to believe, foreseeing the dire consequences? Were they protecting the ailing system of the COCH?

- Last thing that comes to mind, was Lucy somehow "connected"? The situation when Lucy's father is present at the meeting is somewhat telling. Of course, he could be who are providing emotional support against "two men are persecuting a young woman". But in this case, won't the presence of a professional woman, such as the chief of nursing, be more appropriate?

I think the comments about how bad it would be for the hospital's reputation if police were brought in, are very telling!

Meanwhile, Dr Stephen Brearey and Ravi Jayaram, the two paediatricians who raised the alarm to management, were reportedly told that bringing in the police would lead to "blue tape everywhere and the end of the unit as well as the trust's reputation".
--
On 29 June 2016, one of the consultants sent an email under the subject line: "Should we refer ourselves to external investigation?"
"I believe we need help from outside agencies," he wrote. "And the only agency who can investigate all of us, I believe, is the police."

But hospital managers thought otherwise. "Action is being taken," wrote medical director Ian Harvey in his reply. "All emails cease forthwith."

Two days later, the consultants attended a meeting with senior management. They say the head of corporate affairs and legal services, Stephen Cross, warned that calling the police would be a catastrophe for the hospital and would turn the neonatal unit into a crime scene.

Rather than go to the police, Mr Harvey invited the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Heath (RCPCH) to review the level of service on the neonatal unit.
____

When a new medical director and deputy chief executive, Dr Susan Gilby, began work the month after Letby's arrest, she was shocked at what she found...Dr Gilby says the trust's refusal to call police appeared to be heavily influenced by how it would look. "Protecting their reputation was a big factor in how people responded to the concerns raised," she says.


sources:

Lucy Letby was treated as a victim after staff tried to warn she could be killer

Due to concerns about damaging its reputation, the Countess of Chester hospital delayed calling police for months, while senior management took killer nurse Lucy Letby's side over that of doctors, it is reported

www.mirror.co.uk

Hospital bosses ignored months of doctors' warnings about Lucy Letby

Hospital bosses failed to investigate allegations and tried to silence doctors, BBC investigation finds.

www.bbc.co.uk