GUILTY UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 7 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 6 hung re attempted #33

[ColourPurple]

It would be bitterly ironic if the sadist is such a simp that she faints cause she pricked herself.

She even called her mum to inform her she'd pricked herself, as a precautionary in case anything happened to her. Maybe LL's a hypochondriac too. Phoning your mother aged 25? ( Apparently her mum was hopping mad about the risks she was taking, gave her a stern talking to. I might have to go back & check whether Mum thought it was a big deal that 2 triplets died at the same time )

I thought it might have been an attempt to sabotage/delay/distract from the resus. it apparently happened on the fourth and final resus attempt of Baby P.

Other previous possible attempts at sabotaging or delaying things during resuscitations included:

LL not being able to confirm whether three or four shots of adrenaline had been given during baby O's resus when the doctor asked. ETA -remember a paper towel containing the written details of the resus drugs given for a previous baby (Baby M) was found in LL's home.

The resus drug calculation chart going missing during Baby D's resus, and LL asking the other nurse afterwards how she'd managed to calculate the right dosage without the chart. (The nurse explained how she'd manually calculated it using the baby's weight and years of experience and suggested LL learn to do the same). The chart turned up later.

Baby A's mother being "accidentally" called in the early hours during Baby D's resus, when a nurse was supposed to call the on call consultant. LL said a nurse had accidentally called Baby A's mother but that the nurse wasn't her. Baby D's parents remember LL as the nurse who was holding the phone to the doctor's ear during the resus.

LL being sent to get a camera to take a picture of the unusual mottling rash during Baby B's resus... and by the time she came back with it the rash had gone. Although she did say it court that she had "got it very quickly"

 

[Parker Knoll]

Excellent recall CP !

 

[Furore]

Agreed imo can be straight forward practice for a needle stick to go to ED if high risk which depends on any viral or blood bourne disease the infants could have had or were exposed to. More typically in a low risk situation you’d go to an occupational health clinic day after for tests JMO

Ultimately definitely think this was an excuse to get out of there after the resus tbh and calling her mum was to get attention and comfort other staff weren’t giving her - think they’d all caught wind of the pattern by then. MOO

 

[ColourPurple]

Excellent recall CP !

I had to double check a few details and have just remembered another to add.

 

[Officer Dibble]

Exactly, betting that as a child, if LL had any access to babies whether they were members of her extended family, or the younger siblings of friends, they felt a pinch of one kind or another.
Eeks, wondering if she babysat much as a teen?
imo, speculation.

Or maybe none of that happened. MOO.

 

[iamshadow21]

I thought it might have been an attempt to sabotage/delay/distract from the resus. it apparently happened on the fourth and final resus attempt of Baby P.

Other previous possible attempts at sabotaging or delaying things during resuscitations included:

LL not being able to confirm whether three or four shots of adrenaline had been given during baby O's resus when the doctor asked. ETA -remember a paper towel containing the written details of the resus drugs given for a previous baby (Baby M) was found in LL's home.

The resus drug calculation chart going missing during Baby D's resus, and LL asking the other nurse afterwards how she'd managed to calculate the right dosage without the chart. (The nurse explained how she'd manually calculated it using the baby's weight and years of experience and suggested LL learn to do the same). The chart turned up later.

Baby A's mother being "accidentally" called in the early hours during Baby D's resus, when a nurse was supposed to call the on call consultant. LL said a nurse had accidentally called Baby A's mother but that the nurse wasn't her. Baby D's parents remember LL as the nurse who was holding the phone to the doctor's ear during the resus.

The timings of things around Baby P's death confuse me a little. She got the needle stick, but apparently was also hanging around, giddily offering to make up a memory box, which struck a colleague as inappropriate and 'wrong', and was also the one handling both O and P for photographs, postmortem, in the family room. If she'd gone straight to emergency, surely another nurse would have taken care of the postmortem rituals. But if it was after, then that's quite a delay from needle stick to medical care for it. I'm assuming that if the needle stick had never happened and was just a story, we would have heard about that at trial. There would be a record of her treatment at emergency, and I would imagine a report filled out in the neonatal unit of the injury for OH&S regs. I just wish I knew the sequence of things a little clearer.

MOO

 

[ColourPurple]

The timings of things around Baby P's death confuse me a little. She got the needle stick, but apparently was also hanging around, giddily offering to make up a memory box, which struck a colleague as inappropriate and 'wrong', and was also the one handling both O and P for photographs, postmortem, in the family room. If she'd gone straight to emergency, surely another nurse would have taken care of the postmortem rituals. But if it was after, then that's quite a delay from needle stick to medical care for it. I'm assuming that if the needle stick had never happened and was just a story, we would have heard about that at trial. There would be a record of her treatment at emergency, and I would imagine a report filled out in the neonatal unit of the injury for OH&S regs. I just wish I knew the sequence of things a little clearer.

MOO

Yes it was a bit unclear. I think the blood test and faint happened after the memory box etc. and then Doc Choc offered her a lift home but I could be wrong.

 

[iamshadow21]

Yes it was a bit unclear. I think the blood test and faint happened after the memory box etc. and then Doc Choc offered her a lift home but I could be wrong.

It's the only way it works. I wonder if the faint might have been conjured up because she realised she'd acted oddly, and she thought perhaps a faint after being on her feet all day, not eating, and having a needle stick might 'explain' her behaviour away. We've seen before that she covers, dissembles and distracts when her mask slips and she realises someone has noticed. If she presents the story of the faint, then she gives a reason why she might have seemed 'giddy' or slightly manic a few hours earlier, and explains away the oddness as fatigue or low blood sugar or low blood pressure or something.

MOO

 

[esther43]

It's the only way it works. I wonder if the faint might have been conjured up because she realised she'd acted oddly, and she thought perhaps a faint after being on her feet all day, not eating, and having a needle stick might 'explain' her behaviour away. We've seen before that she covers, dissembles and distracts when her mask slips and she realises someone has noticed. If she presents the story of the faint, then she gives a reason why she might have seemed 'giddy' or slightly manic a few hours earlier, and explains away the oddness as fatigue or low blood sugar or low blood pressure or something.

MOO

Totally. I imagine the persona of LL on this occasion not to be dissimilar to what was featured in the arrest video. With those acting skills who could honestly believe any different?

 

[iamshadow21]

Totally. I imagine the persona of LL on this occasion not to be dissimilar to what was featured in the arrest video. With those acting skills who could honestly believe any different?

It's very controlled and considered, especially when you realise that these two deaths are probably Letby's equivalent of Bundy's attack on Chi Omega, or the Whitechapel murderer's Double Event leading to the death of Mary Jane Kelly. It's Letby at her most uncontrolled and most overtly violent, and yet she's still thinking about how she's going to 'spin' her own actions and interactions in a way that diverts suspicion. Unsuccessfully, because by this point, all eyes were on her, but there's a coolness and calculation mixed with an impulsive recklessness that seems like it should be a contradiction, but she's embodying both, simultaneously. At the same time, she's drunk on the thrill of her kills AND quietly and calmly plotting her manipulation of those around her.

MOO

 

[Kemug]

There is a second (male) officer sitting to the right of the one (think it may be Detective Sergeant Danielle Stonier) asking the questions. I believe that's who she was looking at.

She uses 'we' all the time when answering questions in court, when she should have been answering for herself. I've made a compilation of them which I need to find.

So she obviously knows full well what nurse should think, feel and do - she just doesn't comply.

 

[iamshadow21]

So she obviously knows full well what nurse should think, feel and do - she just doesn't comply.

If she didn't understand the rules or what she was expected to comply with as a human being, she would have been locked up a long time ago. She, like many people with certain personality disorders, understands what is expected of her, she just doesn't care. She'll comply when it suits her but will take advantage of situations to act in a cruel, immoral, or illegal way if it's what she really wants to do. It's expressed in every person differently. You see some who are chronic, lifelong shoplifters. They have a wallet full of cash, and they probably don't even want or need what they're stealing, they just want to steal. You get some people who cannot tell the truth to save their life. Otherwise model citizens, but from childhood, everyone around them knows that they can't believe a word they say. Is it nature? Is it nurture? Genetics, adverse life experiences, parenting, brain injury, mental illness, moral failing? There are plenty of theories but no hard and fast answers.

MOO

 

[esther43]

It's very controlled and considered, especially when you realise that these two deaths are probably Letby's equivalent of Bundy's attack on Chi Omega, or the Whitechapel murderer's Double Event leading to the death of Mary Jane Kelly. It's Letby at her most uncontrolled and most overtly violent, and yet she's still thinking about how she's going to 'spin' her own actions and interactions in a way that diverts suspicion. Unsuccessfully, because by this point, all eyes were on her, but there's a coolness and calculation mixed with an impulsive recklessness that seems like it should be a contradiction, but she's embodying both, simultaneously. At the same time, she's drunk on the thrill of her kills AND quietly and calmly plotting her manipulation of those around her.

MOO

She's so unaware of the impact though.

It's very controlled and considered, especially when you realise that these two deaths are probably Letby's equivalent of Bundy's attack on Chi Omega, or the Whitechapel murderer's Double Event leading to the death of Mary Jane Kelly. It's Letby at her most uncontrolled and most overtly violent, and yet she's still thinking about how she's going to 'spin' her own actions and interactions in a way that diverts suspicion. Unsuccessfully, because by this point, all eyes were on her, but there's a coolness and calculation mixed with an impulsive recklessness that seems like it should be a contradiction, but she's embodying both, simultaneously. At the same time, she's drunk on the thrill of her kills AND quietly and calmly plotting her manipulation of those around her.

MOO

In the police interview she almost reminds me of a Princess Diana persona. Especially when she says ' I suppose as a nursing team we all noticed that there has been an increase in mortality'
Don't get me wrong princess di did spread some good messages and was not a killer but undoubtedly had BPD along with LL and did in fact need the attention. Which played in to motive
Jmo

 

[Parker Knoll]

Interesting article.

https://archive.li/2023.08.26-171932/https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lucy-letby-trial-motive-why-did-she-kill-gkvmm2gqz

 

[May72031]

If I had a tenner for every time, post verdict or charging, that an old school friend later describes the killer as weird, I'd be very rich

There is a similar phenomenon where every single killer/serial killer "had evil/scary eyes" according to people who were familiar to them - although they never mentioned any such facial feature before it was known they were a killer/serial killer.

 

[iamshadow21]

There is a similar phenomenon where every single killer/serial killer "had evil/scary eyes" according to people who were familiar to them - although they never mentioned any such facial feature before it was known they were a killer/serial killer.

I see that on WS all the time. Maybe it's an autistic thing on my part, but whenever a killer gets caught, the threads fill up with folks talking about their cold eyes, killer stare, etc. I look at the photo, and all I can think is, 'yep, that's a person', with no expectation or feeling about how they look whatsoever. In my experience, all killers tend to look like regular people to me.

I can never see the pareidolia stuff either.

MOO

 

[LadyL]

I see that on WS all the time. Maybe it's an autistic thing on my part, but whenever a killer gets caught, the threads fill up with folks talking about their cold eyes, killer stare, etc. I look at the photo, and all I can think is, 'yep, that's a person', with no expectation or feeling about how they look whatsoever. In my experience, all killers tend to look like regular people to me.

I can never see the pareidolia stuff either.

MOO

I always comment when I see the dead, empty, soulless eyes but I never comment when I don't.

 

[LadyL]

There is a similar phenomenon where every single killer/serial killer "had evil/scary eyes" according to people who were familiar to them - although they never mentioned any such facial feature before it was known they were a killer/serial killer.

how do you know 'they never mentioned any such facial feature' beforehand?

 

[Eloise]

The photos of her socialising never looked right to me. I always thought there was something fake about all the silly faces she was pulling* and the smiles too wide but not in her eyes. But back then before the trial began I also thought, maybe she's being scapegoated because she's the weird one who doesn't get social cues. I've long thought she was probably neurodivergent or had a personality disorder, I just don't think that explains what she did or excuses it. The vast majority of ND people and people with personality disorders aren't serial killers, its no excuse and obviously she's never claimed to have such. So its JMO.

*yes obviously when people do funny faces for a photo they're 'fake' but there was something off about them, to me. Like a typical person enjoys being silly sometimes and the funny faces come from a place of genuine enjoyment whereas hers felt like she was having to act at having fun because it was what was expected in that setting.

 

[iamshadow21]

UK plans to impose mandatory whole-life orders on extreme murderers

The proposed move would see those who commit the most horrific types of murder die in prison, in the wake of the conviction of killer nurse Lucy Letby.

www.abc.net.au

The British government said the move would see those convicted die in prison and protect the public from the most-dangerous offenders.

For the first time, the orders will also be the default sentence for any sexually motivated murders.