GUILTY UK - Rebecca Watts, 16, Bristol, 19 Feb 2015 #15

[YidArmyRach]

Just checked - Dexter doesn't dismember then wrap with cling film, but he does use it as part of his MO. to imprison his victims.

The MO is interesting- that's a big speculation that NM has previously watched Dexter - he could have got these ideas from another forensics drama that I haven't seen. I don't believe he got any of this practical knowledge from the army/just his own imagination.
The clever "saving grace" of Dexter is that it's high quality drama IMO and he is a forensics analyst who is out to murder murderers who have escaped justice and whose crimes are especially heinous. (Ultimately he is psychopathic too of course.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dexter_Morgan#Modus_operandi

Anyway, he or they have got these procedures from somewhere..... cannot believe he had a sudden light bulb moment of saws, cling film etc.
As a poster said previously - as a pure accident he would just have been in a total panic and dumped the body in that nearby park without being able to think through his next moves properly....

Cling film is an obviously choice, even if a person hasn't ever watched a crime or forensic programme, simply because it is used everyday to keep things contained, clean and waterproof.

Also, its used when a person has a tattoo done to keep the design covered up and waterproof for the first few days. I've had a couple done in the past, and each time the tattooist taped cling film over it. My son has had his arms tattooed and each time they were wrapped up with clingfilm and then taped over.

 

[Clio]

The 21 questions for the jury are now available in my 'One Drive' I think this doc is very importante for us all who have been following Becky's trial, so I put it alone in a word document.

It is the doc nº 3 after the 'Timeline of events' and 'Summary of the charges' documents.

Bees

Hi Bees,

I think you've missed out a bit. There's an "If no" line relating to Q1 missing from your doc

 

[e-sherlockholmes]

I believe his fibro also caused problems in his sex life. The threesomes witness gave evidence about him feeling inadequate because of it. I think he was easily fatigued, and Retribution said something like that too.

That may be true. Although I think its very possible that any performance issues with his sex life may be psychological in origin also.

The male suspect is someone who comes off as having low self-esteem and very self-conscious. Maybe lives day to day having issues with self-image. Maybe consciously analyzing his actions/behaviors and the perception of him by others. So, during sexual acts, his mind may at times be preoccupied with analyzing whether he is performing up to the standards he set in his head of what a man in his position ought to be, and this basically evolves into a nervousness and self-consciousness that is a source of mild depression that can affect his sex life.

 

[cottonweaver]

Cling film is an obviously choice, even if a person hasn't ever watched a crime or forensic programme, simply because it is used everyday to keep things contained, clean and waterproof.

Also, its used when a person has a tattoo done to keep the design covered up and waterproof for the first few days. I've had a couple done in the past, and each time the tattooist taped cling film over it. My son has had his arms tattooed and each time they were wrapped up with clingfilm and then taped over.

BIB yes it's perfectly possible,. I think it's pre-thought through BUT I am contradicting my own thoughts on why not purchase the saw/materials before the killing but the stun-gun is bought in advance***

Anyway whatever was in his head( their heads) wasn't thought through very well - one would need an industrial amount of cling film - in retail it's only 30 cm wide and I don't want to get so graphic- , but to seal in liquid, smell and DNA transference etc, you'd need an awful lot - as they found out from their repeat shopping trips.

Lots of puzzles in this crime for sure.

ETA *** ie an assault was planned but not necessarily an immediate killing?:banghead::juggle:

 

[Clio]

Heart West News ‏@HeartWestNews · 58s59 seconds ago
#beckywatts trial: Judge continues to sum up NM's evidence which includes details of Becky's death and the moving of her body.

 

[Gigi-G]

Just checked - Dexter doesn't dismember then wrap with cling film, but he does use it as part of his MO. to imprison his victims.

The MO is interesting- that's a big speculation that NM has previously watched Dexter - he could have got these ideas from another forensics drama that I haven't seen. I don't believe he got any of this practical knowledge from the army/just his own imagination.
The clever "saving grace" of Dexter is that it's high quality drama IMO and he is a forensics analyst who is out to murder murderers who have escaped justice and whose crimes are especially heinous. (Ultimately he is psychopathic too of course.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dexter_Morgan#Modus_operandi

Anyway, he or they have got these procedures from somewhere..... cannot believe he had a sudden light bulb moment of saws, cling film etc.
As a poster said previously - as a pure accident he would just have been in a total panic and dumped the body in that nearby park without being able to think through his next moves properly....

But if you do go on further down the write up about his father and mothers murders.. his mother's murderer Santos Jiminez. He dismembered using his father's tree surgeons tools and power tools.

 

[YidArmyRach]

BIB yes it's perfectly possible,. I think it's pre-thought through BUT I am contradicting my own thoughts on why not purchase the saw/materials before the killing but the stun-gun is bought in advance

Anyway whatever was in his head( their heads) wasn't thought through very well - one would need an industrial amount of cling film - in retail it's only 30 cm wide and I don't want to get so graphic- , but to seal in liquid, smell and DNA transference etc, you'd need an awful lot - as they found out from their repeat shopping trips.

Lots of puzzles in this crime for sure.

I know what you mean. The fact he/they went shopping for a saw, cling film and all the cleaning products after Becky was killed makes me think that the murder hadn't been pre-planned. They was absolutely nothing organized, hence why he had to involve other people to dispose of the body parts ..... and just taking the body home with him to start with suggests panic to me..... unless he thought she was still alive at that point (which goes against the evidence of being smothered against a hard surface until dead).

It is very puzzling though, because they really didn't need to go to Becky's house at all that day, and the fact they did, when Anjie wasn't in but Becky was, suggests something was planned. But whatever was planned, I don't think it was planned to end with her death at that time/place.

Back to their reason for going there - to return a cake tin which had been used to bake a cake for SH's birthday, wasn't it? I'm presuming NM didn't bake this cake ....... in which case, why would SH even have the tin? If you bake someone a cake, you usually take it out of the tin before you decorate it, let alone hand it over!

 

[Clio]

Dom Reynolds Verified account  ‏@domreynolds · 1m1 minute ago
Judge now summing-up Nathan Matthews's defence. NM said it was "not ridiculous" that he acted alone in killing/cover-up of #beckywatts

 

[sar2them1984]

Yes, this is a big problem to me. There's no excuse for not calling an ambulance, and I would expect that in the case of a genuine accident, it would be natural to involve the other person in the house ("OMG, what have I done? She's not dead, is she?") whereupon that person might well be the one to call the ambulance.

Well it's not an excuse bit more of a reason..if you called an ambulance the victim is more than likely going to live to tell the tale... think of the percussions of that

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

 

[Clio]

I know what you mean. The fact he/they went shopping for a saw, cling film and all the cleaning products after Becky was killed makes me think that the murder hadn't been pre-planned. They was absolutely nothing organized, hence why he had to involve other people to dispose of the body parts ..... and just taking the body home with him to start with suggests panic to me.

It is very puzzling though, because they really didn't need to go to the house at all that day, and the fact they did, when Anjie wasn't in, but Becky was, suggests something was planned. But whatever was planned, I don't think it was planned to end with her death at that time/place.

Back to their reason for going there - to return a cake tin which had been used to bake a cake for SH's birthday. I'm presuming NM didn't bake this cake, in which case, why would SH even have the tin? If you bake someone a cake, you take it out of the tin before you decorate it, let alone hand it over!

The cake tin belonged to MM, and CM/MM were taking AG to hospital that day. It was SH's 21st birthday the week before Becky was killed but there's no confirmation that's where the tin came from. I agree that it's usual to take a cake out of a tin before giving it to someone but it's not impossible that MM gave SH a cake for her birthday still in it's tin. We simply don't know.

We don't know what AG told NM when he phoned that morning to say they were going round. It's not certain they went because Becky WAS in, they might have gone round expecting her NOT to be in e.g the plant/retrieve camera theory

ETA More damning perhaps is that the cake tin was given as a reason for the visit to CH on 19th in SH's interviews back in March, but it wasn't mentioned AFAIK when she gave evidence in court

 

[Clio]

Heart West News ‏@HeartWestNews · 2m2 minutes ago
Judge has finished going through NM's evidence and is now summing up the police interviews with SH #beckywatts

 

[Tortoise]

I know what you mean. The fact he/they went shopping for a saw, cling film and all the cleaning products after Becky was killed makes me think that the murder hadn't been pre-planned. They was absolutely nothing organized, hence why he had to involve other people to dispose of the body parts ..... and just taking the body home with him to start with suggests panic to me..... unless he thought she was still alive at that point (which goes against the evidence of being smothered against a hard surface until dead).

It is very puzzling though, because they really didn't need to go to Becky's house at all that day, and the fact they did, when Anjie wasn't in but Becky was, suggests something was planned. But whatever was planned, I don't think it was planned to end with her death at that time/place.

Back to their reason for going there - to return a cake tin which had been used to bake a cake for SH's birthday, wasn't it? I'm presuming NM didn't bake this cake ....... in which case, why would SH even have the tin? If you bake someone a cake, you usually take it out of the tin before you decorate it, let alone hand it over!

I'm reading it as the sort of tin you store a cake in to transport it.

 

[Alyce]

BIB yes it's perfectly possible,. I think it's pre-thought through BUT I am contradicting my own thoughts on why not purchase the saw/materials before the killing but the stun-gun is bought in advance***

Anyway whatever was in his head( their heads) wasn't thought through very well - one would need an industrial amount of cling film - in retail it's only 30 cm wide and I don't want to get so graphic- , but to seal in liquid, smell and DNA transference etc, you'd need an awful lot - as they found out from their repeat shopping trips.

Lots of puzzles in this crime for sure.

ETA *** ie an assault was planned but not necessarily an immediate killing?:banghead::juggle:

Apart from killing not being pre planned I also think NM/SH did not realise how difficult it would be to dismember. I think there was some comment, from forensics ? about knife cuts ( other than on the stomach ) which possibly indicated that an attempt had been made to use a knife to dismember.
When that didnt work well, they had to get the saw. JMO

 

[Tortoise]

maybe they would have left her hanging from a tree, to look like a suicide, in their original plan.

 

[Alyce]

I know what you mean. The fact he/they went shopping for a saw, cling film and all the cleaning products after Becky was killed makes me think that the murder hadn't been pre-planned. They was absolutely nothing organized, hence why he had to involve other people to dispose of the body parts ..... and just taking the body home with him to start with suggests panic to me..... unless he thought she was still alive at that point (which goes against the evidence of being smothered against a hard surface until dead).

It is very puzzling though, because they really didn't need to go to Becky's house at all that day, and the fact they did, when Anjie wasn't in but Becky was, suggests something was planned. But whatever was planned, I don't think it was planned to end with her death at that time/place.

Back to their reason for going there - to return a cake tin which had been used to bake a cake for SH's birthday, wasn't it? I'm presuming NM didn't bake this cake ....... in which case, why would SH even have the tin? If you bake someone a cake, you usually take it out of the tin before you decorate it, let alone hand it over!

I think the tin was a very flimsy excuse and a reason to go there on a non visit day. I wonder if there actually is a tin, has that been proven ? has MM ( grandmother ) confirmed that she was given a tin when she arrived back at CH with AG ?

Also, if there had been a birthday cake, which had been given to SH the week before ( on her birthday ) then surely the most likely place for this to happen would have been CH.
And, wouldn't it be normal to cut the cake there and then and hand round slices.

So I suppose the only way SH ended up with the tin would be if they didn't finish the cake and she took the remainder of it back with her to CML, using the tin to transport it.

 

[cottonweaver]

Apart from killing not being pre planned I also think NM/SH did not realise how difficult it would be to dismember. I think there was some comment, from forensics ? about knife cuts ( other than on the stomach ) which possibly indicated that an attempt had been made to use a knife to dismember.
When that didnt work well, they had to get the saw. JMO

That's interesting so the fact they bought the saw afterwards does not necessarily mean that it was not planned.
He ( they ) may have planned to kill but initially had a totally different disposal plan - hence rush to get packing materials.

I am sure some one here mentioned something about an alternative plan a couple of weeks ago? ( Estuary, sea?)

So last minute purchases don't necessarily negate pre-planning.?


It's all gone quite so am presuming reporting restrictions?

 

[Bluey]

I'm reading it as the sort of tin you store a cake in to transport it.

That's what I'd assumed it was.

Regarding the cake tin and it being the reason they went round that day, I think SH said that it was her that found the tin, so her idea to return it. So if that was just an excuse to go round when AG wasn't in, then for me that means SH was involved before they even went to the house.

 

[cottonweaver]

in response to 1pm question asking about NM SH reactions in court so far

UK & Eire database for all crimes against children "No reactions. Just sat listening. Strangely subdued in court."

 

[Clio]

I am sure some one here mentioned something about an alternative plan a couple of weeks ago? ( Estuary, sea?)

It's all gone quite so am presuming reporting restrictions?

NM said he had thought at one point to get rid of the "packages" in the sea.

There are very few tweets - Judge is going through SH police interviews atm I believe

 

[Crazy Mama]

all my opinion. NM has problems with his arm muscles - hanging washing - I think keeping a hand over Becky's mouth and nose for a long time, while she was resisting and biting (internal gum injuries), then I think it would have required considerable arm strength to maintain.

If she was cuffed to something with one hand and he was kneeling on her other arm, he could have suffocated her. Some people, even handicapped people can find amazing strength when in a situation.