GUILTY UK - Rebecca Watts, 16, Bristol, 19 Feb 2015 #4

[snowdrop]

But this is a case where victim and alleged killer are close family so it's completely different than any random killing.

I realise that, but relationships within families can be so strange. Look at Mikaeel Kular, murdered by his mother who loved all her other children dearly; even she couldn't understand why she hated only one of her children:

The court heard that Adekoya, who had a history of depression and had attempted suicide in 2001, had made internet searches including "I find it hard to love my son", "I love all of my children except one", "Why am I so aggressive with my son" and "Get rid of bruises".

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...oya-jailed-11-years-killing-son-mikaeel-kular

That's beyond heartbreaking. It's a far closer relationship than Becky and NM, Mikaeel was a tiny child that everyone who met him seemed to adore, a wonderful, bright, shining little boy who was murdered in circumstances that still can't be understood, which sounds very like Becky.

What I'm trying, clearly badly, to say is: one has to look at all the circumstances around what happened. Ignoring one aspect of it in case it might offend people could prevent us from learning from it and possibly preventing such a thing happening in future.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone and I clearly have. Having been victim of the same crime more than once I am interested in what makes certain people victims, and I'm not going to apologise for it even if it's terribly non-PC of me to wonder how I'm responsible.

 

[mrazda71]

I realise that, but relationships within families can be so strange. Look at Mikaeel Kular, murdered by his mother who loved all her other children dearly; even she couldn't understand why she hated only one of her children:



http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...oya-jailed-11-years-killing-son-mikaeel-kular

That's beyond heartbreaking. It's a far closer relationship than Becky and NM, Mikaeel was a tiny child that everyone who met him seemed to adore, a wonderful, bright, shining little boy who was murdered in circumstances that still can't be understood.

What I'm trying, clearly badly, to say is: one has to look at all the circumstances around what happened. Ignoring one aspect of it in case it might offend people could prevent us from learning from it and possibly preventing such a thing happening in future.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone and I clearly have. Having been victim of the same crime more than once I am interested in what makes certain people victims, and I'm not going to apologise for it even if it's terribly non-PC of me to wonder how I'm responsible.

You are NOT responsible for a crime being committed against you, in any way shape or form. You are not.

 

[snowdrop]

You are NOT responsible for a crime being committed against you, in any way shape or form. You are not.

You're a kind person, and thank you

We need to get this thread back on topic!

I'm really not comfortable speculating about people, circumstances, etc, but does anyone have any ideas about when this case might come to trial? I guess 1 September is way too early? I think it took about a year to get Mark Bridger to trial? Though that had very delicate forensic information, this might be quicker?

 

[Orange Tabby]

I’m new to this thread. I’ve had a quick perusal, however I haven’t studied it carefully. (But I will!) Please accept my apologies if what I discuss here has already been covered.

Becky is described as having left her house on Thurs., 19 Feb. with her phone, her tablet, her laptop and nothing else. This strikes me as very important. She didn’t take a purse or money or bank card.

A very strong argument can be made that Becky didn’t leave her home that morning voluntarily. Otherwise she would have taken her purse.

More important, I think, is the fact that there is no reason to take all three of her electronic devices (phone, tablet, computer) anywhere. A phone and one of the other two would be understandable. If you want to type something, like a homework assignment, you’d take the laptop and not the tablet. If you just want to have a big screen to browse the internet, you’d take your tablet and not the laptop. The whole point of a tablet is to have something more portable than a laptop. Becky wouldn’t take all three electronic devices. (Or am I missing something here?)

But as all her electronics were missing, this suggests that whoever forced her out of her house (or murdered her in her house) had reason to believe that Becky had something which compromised or incriminated him which could be on any or all of these devices. Emails. Photographs. A personal diary. A list of some kind. A phone message or other recording (which might have been duplicated onto one or both of the other devices). These are just some of the numerous possibilities, and we can’t know just what that evidence is.

This suggests that Becky’s death was not an accident (or at least: not an accident without an antecedent); she did not leave the house willingly (say, to accept a ride to her boyfriend’s house); and was it not a spur of the moment sexual assault or a killing resulting from anger, or more specifically, it was not an attack with no backstory. If there was no previous problem between Becky and her assailant, he would not have needed to take all her electronics. And if he decided to take a few things to make it seem like Becky had simply left the house on her own, it seems very unlikely he would not have thought to take a purse or a backpack. He had to choose from among Becky's possessions and his choices tell us something.

Whether or not there is incriminating evidence on her electronic devices, it seems to me that the perpetrator thought there could be. That’s why he took all three, whereas Becky herself would have no reason to do that, particularly without taking her purse and some money.

I don’t speculate on the nature of the info on her electronics.

This isn’t to say that it wasn’t a sexually-motivated murder, but to say that the evidence suggests that if it was, what transpired on Thurs., 19 Feb was not an event without some pre-existing evidence against her attacker, which he wanted to eliminate from her phone, tablet, and computer. Ditto for a drug-related case. Ditto for a motive not yet articulated.

I agree with people who say the murder doesn’t appear planned. But I will be surprised if there is nothing on Becky’s phone, tablet, or computer which doesn’t implicate at least one of the people involved and I anticipate that the date stamp(s) on the info is before Thurs., Feb. 19.

 

[Avarixe]

I'd be incredibly surprised if it's not sexual. Maybe others would cover because they have a vested interest in the truth not coming out? We don't know when or where she died, who was present, we don't know anything really but almost all of these sort of cases are sexually motivated. I'd eat my hat if it turns out it isn't.

What interest? Obviously, they thought they did if they did help NM. But i can't see the others helping out if this was sexually motivated unless they took part in the assault/murder (wouldn't their charges reflect that if they did?). Statistics may say that the odds are that this is probably a sexually-motivated crime, but then again stranger things have happened.

Can I ask what type of thing you think she may have stumbled upon, out of interest?

Nothing in particular, tbh. What really strikes me as odd is the number of people involved (and what they're charged with), and the devices which were previously lost. You can say that since we don't really know anything it's easy to jump to conclusions and the things i've pointed out may not turn out to mean anything at all.

 

[MissyLDT]

What interest? Obviously, they thought they did if they did help NM. But i can't see the others helping out if this was sexually motivated unless they took part in the assault/murder (wouldn't their charges reflect that if they did?). Statistics may say that the odds are that this is probably a sexually-motivated crime, but then again stranger things have happened.

Nothing in particular, tbh. What really strikes me as odd is the number of people involved (and what they're charged with), and the devices which were previously lost. You can say that since we don't really know anything it's easy to jump to conclusions and the things i've pointed out may not turn out to mean anything at all.

The suggested sexual assault they were involved in doesn't necessarily have to have happened at the same time as the murder?
"She was going to tell what we done, I done it for us" therefore you need to help me dispose of her body type scenario. That theory could be applied to a number of things; drugs, stolen goods etc I guess but I still believe the motive was sexual. To get others involved there has to be a vested interest and I don't think drugs or stolen goods is enough to involve them in the disposal of a body. None of them appear to be hardened criminals or big time drug dealers/thiefs who are dealing in values that would lead to killing someone who was a risk to the business. It seems a lot more seedier in my opinion. However, stranger things have happened.

 

[Avarixe]

The suggested sexual assault they were involved in doesn't necessarily have to have happened at the same time as the murder?
"She was going to tell what we done, I done it for us" therefore you need to help me dispose of her body type scenario. That theory could be applied to a number of things; drugs, stolen goods etc I guess but I still believe the motive was sexual. To get others involved there has to be a vested interest and I don't think drugs or stolen goods is enough to involve them in the disposal of a body. None of them appear to be hardened criminals or big time drug dealers/thiefs who are dealing in values that would lead to killing someone who was a risk to the business. It seems a lot more seedier in my opinion. However, stranger things have happened.

Point well taken. [emoji4]
It was stupid of me to have not taken into account that indeed there's no evidence whatsoever that these people are hardened criminals. I was too focused on the evidence (the devices, the body being cut up, etc) that we've been given. You're right, and i'm taking back what i said that i'd be serprised if this was sexually motivated. Although, what you said still ties in nicely to what i've previously believed (minus the motivation part, of course).

Edit:
I guess it's really hard for me to wrap my head around the amount of help NM seems to have had. I'm trying to be as logical as i can, but itvs difficult.

Edit 2:
English is not my first language. So if i sound weird or funny, i apologize. [emoji4]

 

[MissyLDT]

Not stupid! None of us know the facts yet so we are all just speculating based on our perceptions of what we do know. I may be completely wrong.

I totally agree! It is so hard to process how so many, if found guilty, can be so cruel towards a 16 year old girl and treat her like she's insignificant.

 

[mrazda71]

Maybe ... Both things are true. Maybe NM was involved in something dodgy with 3 of the 4, let's just say for example it was drugs and he was a courier for them or something.
Becky may not have had any idea of this but if as I suspect, this was sexually motivated, NM could've been flirting, trying his luck for some time (which there may have been evidence of on her devices) but on that day, something went wrong. NM is in the poop. Now if he was 'working for' the 3 of 4 he would go to them for help. Not because Becky had something over them but because NM did ... no idea how 4 of 4 comes into it ...

 

[Henwah]

Sorry, I don't understand, why would a theory have to include them being 'happy' participants?

Well, because 4 other people chose to help dispose of a dead girl - there must be a fairly compelling reason for them to do that - personally speaking there is not a person on the planet I'd cover for if approached to do this, I realise we are all different but still

 

[katydid23]

Well, because 4 other people chose to help dispose of a dead girl - there must be a fairly compelling reason for them to do that - personally speaking there is not a person on the planet I'd cover for if approached to do this, I realise we are all different but still

How does one get FOUR friends to help hide a dismembered dead girl????? I can't imagine finding even one person willing to help me. Not even my husbsnd or grown kids would do so, let alone some friends or neighbors. What a weird circle of friends he had.

 

[Henwah]

How does one get FOUR friends to help hide a dismembered dead girl????? I can't imagine finding even one person willing to help me. Not even my husbsnd or grown kids would do so, let alone some friends or neighbors. What a weird circle of friends he had.

Hence why it is difficult to just remove it from the circumstances of the death itself, I.e. Something that would come to light that would incriminate them, enough that they felt obliged to assist - just my opinion of course

 

[mrazda71]

Hence why it is difficult to just remove it from the circumstances of the death itself, I.e. Something that would come to light that would incriminate them, enough that they felt obliged to assist - just my opinion of course

The circumstance of Becky's death may have no bearing on why they helped. If NM was a friend or 'working' for them they would've helped not because Becky knew something but because NM does ...

 

[ChuckieD]

Yup, my opinion of people involved with a certain type of smoking is that they are generally pretty stupid

LOL - it's definitely possible they thought they were smarter than the police. Kid killers are the lowest of the low in society. I can't see anybody, let alone 4/5 people, getting involved unless they're directly involved to begin with. I think there is more to come.

 

[cupoftea]

completely introverted, incapable, socially inept shrinking violet off the back of her families comments.[/QUOTE]
This is what I was trying to say, with this in mind, could it have been that BW was being teenager (naughty) and NM confronted her about it and it escalated or the other way round NM was dealing/stolen goods/cheating on his gf and BW confronted him

 

[mrazda71]

Ooh something seems to be a bit off with the quotes this morning.

 

[ChuckieD]

completely introverted, incapable, socially inept shrinking violet off the back of her families comments.

This is what I was trying to say, with this in mind, could it have been that BW was being teenager (naughty) and NM confronted her about it and it escalated or the other way round NM was dealing/stolen goods/cheating on his gf and BW confronted him[/QUOTE]

Confronted her about what? I don't understand what you mean.

Anything is possible but I don't believe that, no way.

 

[ChuckieD]

Ooh something seems to be a bit off with the quotes this morning.

I'm having loads of tech issues on here this morning.

 

[ChuckieD]

I've not seen Becky described as inept or incapable ...

I've been partially quoted. What I said (or meant) was that some people have taken the 'shy and introverted' comments from her family so far that they have turned Becky as the above quote, I'm sure somebody even raised the possibility that she had mental health or development issues purely off the back of the family's comments - I'm not searching 4 40 page threads to find it though. I realise it's actually well intended but, personally I think it's unfair to Becky and quite disrespectful to her memory. She seems, to me in her social media, wedding pics etc, a perfectly normal 16 year old girl and I imagine, wild assumption here, that is how she would have wished to be remembered.

 

[eneri12]

Of course it could be that these friends and supporters are genuinely shocked and surprised?