GUILTY UK - Sadie Hartley, 60, murdered, Helmshore, Lancs, 14 Jan 2016 #1

[Alyce]

Nice biog of Sadie

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3746200/How-Sadie-Hartley-s-drive-led-800-000-home.html

BTW still can't find confirmation as to whether the Helmshore house was rented or bought - I thought we all had it down as a rental from the start of the trial.

I had some notes re this which I now cant find !

But had another look round and can see , on line

The house in Helmshore was sold ( leasehold ) August 21, 2003 for £385,000

It was then marketed for sale- I can see a listing dated September 25, 2012 - but no mention of a confirmed sale and in fact it was then taken off the market

The next confirmed sale showing is October 31, 2014 when it sold ( freehold ) for £500,000

SWs letter was sent to Sadie in August 2014.
It is after this time that IJ says he sells his home and moves in with Sadie.
From the sale date of October 2014, then either Sadie bought the home at this time,or someone else bought it and Sadie then rented it.
Of the two, I would say it is more likely she bought the home - although I do remember the earlier msm articles which said she rented the property.

 

[Alyce]

I just wanted to thank those of you who worked hard following and transcribing this trial.

I felt compelled to come on and say a couple of things:

1) I utterly despise IJ. His only interest is for himself - all that whining about Sadie "not providing" for him is sickening. He has also lied quite outrageously about the nature of his relationship with Williams in my view. Loathsome individual

2) I think there was more to the relationship between Williams and Walshe than just friendship. Something about the holiday snaps together and what Walshe was prepared to do make me think that even if they were not in a physical relationship, that is what Kit wanted. Didn't she give Williams money too? Just another older person ripe for exploitation (both financial and practical). Not saying I think Kit would have been a delight without Williams - but Williams made great use of her vile personality traits as well as her money.

It is very unlikely that Walshe will ever be free and I sincerely hope that the same goes for Williams. However, I expect prison to provide Williams with a whole new arena within which to manipulate, start relationships and spread poison.

BBM most definately. I can see her building a complete life for herself in there. Shauna Hoare comes to mind ( Becky Watts case ).
And, thinking of Shauna, I remember one MSM that talked about her ( SH ) having riding lessons in prison...expect similar for SW.

 

[cottonweaver]

I may have overlooked something very obvious here ( not unusual with me ! ) but where did SW send that letter to - if she didnt know where Sadie lived ?

Very good point.

I've always thought that SW knew where the couple lived from the get-go and posted that the tracker was all part of the control, it wasn't just to find out Sadie's address. ( SW had that history of stalking her ex's home and I have no doubt she followed him home at the earliest opportunity.)

even the flower delivery - as well as supposedly being a "dry run" as police say,( to see if she would open the door without a latch lock after dark) but so risky- was an example of them toying with Sadie, to freak her out. ( Kit could have easily knocked and asked for a non-person, apologised and left. They wanted to leave Sadie worried and perplexed. Also incidentally, remember us all querying IJ's glib response to them. Did he even guess who the giver might be? Not a nice thought.)

On the house - well done on all that research. So, do you think he paid in some cash from his house-sale, which of course he will get back on the sale?
I just don't understand this "make provision " phrase?

 

[jessie]

I've masses of reading to do (O/T but been in hospital :bed

Agree with the verdicts and sentences though, expected nothing else.

Thanks for so much information, bear with me if I ask out of date questions as I catch up.

 

[cottonweaver]

Kmh, if you check back in, did you see that comment about Kit possibly being, mildly on the ASD ( autism) . What do you think?

Here is a link :
http://autism.lovetoknow.com/Adult_Autism_Symptoms

cause it's a spectrum, obviously one wouldn't expect someone to tick all the boxes, but a few of the traits might ring some bells.

here's another "Do YOU have signs of autism? Take this test to find out if you're one of the rising number with the condition" !!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...e-test-youre-one-rising-number-condition.html

 

[faybradshaw]

BBM most definately. I can see her building a complete life for herself in there. Shauna Hoare comes to mind ( Becky Watts case ).
And, thinking of Shauna, I remember one MSM that talked about her ( SH ) having riding lessons in prison...expect similar for SW.

Shocked to hear that prison life may not be all that bad for SW. Would this be the case if she is able to buy certain privileges? I was thinking - SW will spend the prime of her life - her 30's, 40's and 50's behind bars as opposed to KW who is nearly 60. I would also imagine that being incarcerated for 30 years is not going to change SW's personality, I dont think she is capable of remorse and should she serve her full sentence, could come out being even more dangerous and revengeful.

 

[cottonweaver]

I've masses of reading to do (O/T but been in hospital :bed

Agree with the verdicts and sentences though, expected nothing else.

Thanks for so much information, bear with me if I ask out of date questions as I catch up.

Poor you Jessie, I hope you are feeling better.

yes, get comfy, convalesce with the articles, there are so many of them.

 

[cottonweaver]

Shocked to hear that prison life may not be all that bad for SW. Would this be the case if she is able to buy certain privileges? I was thinking - SW will spend the prime of her life - her 30's, 40's and 50's behind bars as opposed to KW who is nearly 60. I would also imagine that being incarcerated for 30 years is not going to change SW's personality, I dont think she is capable of remorse and should she serve her full sentence, could come out being even more dangerous and revengeful.

Although I'm soft on the death penalty and life without parole, I do think inmates should be doing proper prison labour, 9-5.
SW will not be getting out before she is 65. ( 30 +35)
I'd like to hope that she won't pass parole at 65, if she still shows she is dangerous ( her prison record)

 

[Legally Bland]

Get well soon Jessie.

 

[cottonweaver]

BTW
I ended up watching some of the Hunted programmes a couple of weeks ago( on 4od website ) to see what this heinous pair were talking about and considering SW is so cunning it was surprising that they didn't act on what they watched on Tv.

Here's a few of them that I can remember:

- police can find your burner phone number retrospectively through the records of a single person that you have contacted with it. eg Kevin the ex husband. Then they can get the records from the provider for all your calls and thus get your past locations.
- pay cash for everything and only shop at shops with no till CCTV and burn all receipts ( KW bought the knife on a Tesco clubcard ! they bought flowers, clothes, binoculars at other big stores.)
- don't get petrol at gas stations ( use spare tanks) and never use your ATM as both are used to track locations. ( One of them was picked up getting petrol for the murder journey.)
- make absolutely no record of your plans. ( Diaries!)
- the only contestants who avoided being picked up by number plate cameras were those who travelled on bikes on canalways or were using public transport.
That's before even taking account of local cctv on B roads and all the houses on Sunnybank which had private CCTV.

So SW was neither "creatively brilliant" & neither were paying attention.

I still can't understand someone travelling all the way to Germany for a super-stun gun but someone in a comment noted that SW would have liked the fact that SW gave poor Sadie zero option to fight back. Sick woman, sick pair.

 

[Legally Bland]

I keep thinking about when they all ended up in the same hotel in France in December 2013. If that came as a surprise to IJ it should have set alarm bells ringing, not that SH's life may be in danger, but that he needs to cut all contact with SW.

It may not have ultimately changed anything, but I'd have been changing my phone number after that.

 

[Legally Bland]

Another article on Kit, a fair bit is rehashed though.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...die-hartley-murder-ex-husband-kevin-interview

 

[cottonweaver]

Another article on Kit, a fair bit is rehashed though.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...die-hartley-murder-ex-husband-kevin-interview

that's a good one. tx

He said he planned to visit Walsh in prison next week, adding that he would confront her about the evidence that came out during the trial, which showed that she was a willing participant in the murder.

“I do want answers because I have been lied to. Kit has obviously been more involved than she has let on to me. She could have been honest with me but the whole time she has lied,” he said. “Even in the last few letters, she said she wasn’t giving evidence because of her health, but never let on to me about her involvement in this murder and previous stalking stuff they did with Sarah’s other boyfriends.”

He said he felt he had been a “pawn” in the murder plot, because when he was called to give evidence in the trial Walsh kept him in the dark about her involvement.
“I’m guessing she did that because she wanted me on her side and to come across to the jury like I believed she was innocent,” he said. “And up until that point, I did. I am annoyed, but I will continue to see her because she is just so vulnerable. I am completely baffled by what has happened but I feel a responsibility towards Kit.”

 

[cottonweaver]

I keep thinking about when they all ended up in the same hotel in France in December 2013. If that came as a surprise to IJ it should have set alarm bells ringing, not that SH's life may be in danger, but that he needs to cut all contact with SW.

It may not have ultimately changed anything, but I'd have been changing my phone number after that.

Oh! Was that not a group ski trip from Chill Factore? Didn't realise this. Whats your theory LB?

 

[Alyce]

Very good point.

I've always thought that SW knew where the couple lived from the get-go and posted that the tracker was all part of the control, it wasn't just to find out Sadie's address. ( SW had that history of stalking her ex's home and I have no doubt she followed him home at the earliest opportunity.)

even the flower delivery - as well as supposedly being a "dry run" as police say,( to see if she would open the door without a latch lock after dark) but so risky- was an example of them toying with Sadie, to freak her out. ( Kit could have easily knocked and asked for a non-person, apologised and left. They wanted to leave Sadie worried and perplexed. Also incidentally, remember us all querying IJ's glib response to them. Did he even guess who the giver might be? Not a nice thought.)

On the house - well done on all that research. So, do you think he paid in some cash from his house-sale, which of course he will get back on the sale?
I just don't understand this "make provision " phrase?

I agree. Think SW already knew, but by getting KW to buy the tracker and doing all the * research* to find out where Sadie lived, it was yet one more marker to use when trying to blame KW for the murder.
I do wonder if IJ worked out who had brought the flowers - he was quick enough to give SWs name to the police after the murder, so clearly suspected her from the outset. And I would be amazed if he did not know SWs history with the Thai instructor and the stalking of his wife.

Not sure re paying any money. If he had done, I dont think he could have been asked to leave the property.

 

[Alyce]

I've masses of reading to do (O/T but been in hospital :bed

Agree with the verdicts and sentences though, expected nothing else.

Thanks for so much information, bear with me if I ask out of date questions as I catch up.

Jessie :getwell:

hope you're feeling a lot better now and resting up x

 

[Alyce]

I keep thinking about when they all ended up in the same hotel in France in December 2013. If that came as a surprise to IJ it should have set alarm bells ringing, not that SH's life may be in danger, but that he needs to cut all contact with SW.

It may not have ultimately changed anything, but I'd have been changing my phone number after that.

Indeed. But instead he was playing footsie.

 

[Legally Bland]

Oh! Was that not a group ski trip from Chill Factore? Didn't realise this. Whats your theory LB?

I didn't realise it was a group holiday, that makes it a bit less weird. I'd put money on which couple booked first though.
_____________

In December 2013, Johnston’s double life collided when he and Sadie went on a group skiing holiday to France.


Williams and her married lover Hardwick were also part of the group.

Nevertheless, the pair played footsie under the dinner table at night and exchanged more sexually explicit text messages.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...isons-ignited-jealous-rage.html#ixzz4HhycmJAf
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

[Cherwell]

BBM most definately. I can see her building a complete life for herself in there. Shauna Hoare comes to mind ( Becky Watts case ).
And, thinking of Shauna, I remember one MSM that talked about her ( SH ) having riding lessons in prison...expect similar for SW.

What! That is all kinds of wrong.

 

[faybradshaw]

Im presuming if IJ was told to leave the house, his daughter was probably told to leave Sadie's company too.