UK - Sara Sharif, 10, found murdered in house, Surrey, Aug 2023 *POIs sought*

[JennieM]

Did she even go to school?
Prolonged attack sounds like ongoing abuse leaving evidence.
People would have noticed.
Was she the only child abused in the home or the only one that died from abuse?

There was a post upthread that she attended a local school.

Horrifying either way, I hope the other children are ok.

 

[Skigh]

I also watched on BBC news that the police is looking to locate, not arrest them. Also, that once located it can take years to extradite them

For Pakistan to arrest them now, they said that the UK needs to convince Pakistan that a crime has definitely taken place, so UK LE need to collate as much evidence as they can.

it’s not looking good. Why is it that someone as innocent as Sara has this terrible life, and others can just choose and pick as they wish how they want their life to be and no one can touch them?

Sara deserves justice and I hope the authorities can give it to her.

I would like some t.v company or paper to do a dummies step by step guide to what procedures and level of evidence the police need before they can make an arrest and apply for extradition. Do they need evidence to prove whether it was one or more of the three who murdered Sara? Can the authorities question the children?

 

[porkypies]

Did she even go to school?
Prolonged attack sounds like ongoing abuse leaving evidence.
People would have noticed.
Was she the only child abused in the home or the only one that died from abuse?

Given the pictures posted here of her 'school uniform' conveniently showing only her face, what would people have noticed?

 

[Skigh]

There was a post upthread that she attended a local school.

Horrifying either way, I hope the other children are ok.

Looking at her teeth in that photo , she appears to be around 6/7.

 

[kittythehare]

Given the pictures posted here of her 'school uniform' conveniently showing only her face, what would people have noticed?

people would notice if a child was in pain or fearful or had changed.

 

[iamshadow21]

people would notice if a child was in pain or fearful or had changed.

Some people notice some of the time, and sometimes those people who notice act on that, and sometimes, that action might help a child.

The sad fact is, there are a substantial number of kids who go through hell at home and the people around them don't notice. Even when they're in a position to spend time with the child. Even when they're mandatory reporters and have training in what the signs of child abuse can look like.

Sometimes, the first sign anyone notices that a child is being abused is when they turn up dead.

And then on the flipside, you've got cases like that of Gabriel Fernandez, where there were so many signs, when those signs went on for months, and where dozens of people failed to prevent what happened.

And there's a whole spectrum of stuff in between, from clear and obvious to completely hidden to everyone but those who lived in the home.

The fact is, as much as we'd like to think that we would notice or that the child would give us a clear sign, abusers can be very good at covering their tracks, and kids can be very good at compartmentalising the abuse to endure their existence, but also often feel they need to keep the abuse hidden, out of fear or out of love for their abuser, or both.

Unless this case sees a court room, we may never know the full circumstances of Sara's life and death, just that they were painful, and that her time here was far too short, and that someone who should have been the safest and most caring person in the world to her was responsible.

MOO

 

[tinho]

Maybe a little off topic, but in the 70’s I along with my siblings were placed on the At Risk register. The reason being my mum had passed away and my dad had 3 children to raise alone. My sister had Down’s syndrome. I at aged 10 was the eldest. We had a social worker and were monitored closely. My Dad is the most loving kind caring Dad you would ever meet. We wanted for nothing.Meanwhile my close friend who lived next door with her Father and Stepmother was being abused and neglected terribly yet nothing was done about that. Not too sure how things work these days, but sometimes they are looking in the wrong place.

 

[nao]

Moo..children most often realize they are being abused...it's just house rules, discipline. ..moo

 

[PoirotPink]

And the son?
Half European, accustomed to comforts of a rich Western country.

But surely all the children are European, by virtue of being born and raised in this country?

There are also so many comments about honour killings and child brides, which are anomalies rather than being a part of any cultural tradition.These things are reported in the news, precisely because they are so rare.

The last time I heard a news story about child brides or a child being sold was in connection to Afghanistan, and it was reported because it was an extreme, desperate measure (in a war-torn country) that was taken as an alternative to allowing the child to starve to death. It's not something that would happen to raise some extra cash to maintain a family's lifestyle. It's something that's done as a last resort to prevent death.

Likewise, when you read about honour killings, the perps usually have a sick / twisted view of the world that is abnormal. In typical families, where concepts of "shame" might exist, it would be more usual for the parents / familes to either (1) be a hypocrite and turn a blind eye to their son/daughter's "transgressions" whilst criticising others (so that everyone is in no doubt what their values are), (2) lie or fail to disclose whatever their son/daughter did, so it just becomes a "shameful" secret or (3) disown their son/daughter. Murder is murder, there's no "culture" in which murder becomes acceptable as a way of helping someone deal with their own fragile ego.

Also, there's a strange juxtaposition between honour crime and child brides, when the latter would itself bring shame to a family's "honour". But, it seems that some people think they must occur with equal frequency "in some cultures". Felt I had to add this as a counterweight to those comments.

 

[Dotta]

But surely all the children are European, by virtue of being born and raised in this country?

There are also so many comments about honour killings and child brides, which are anomalies rather than being a part of any cultural tradition.These things are reported in the news, precisely because they are so rare.

The last time I heard a news story about child brides or a child being sold was in connection to Afghanistan, and it was reported because it was an extreme, desperate measure (in a war-torn country) that was taken as an alternative to allowing the child to starve to death. It's not something that would happen to raise some extra cash to maintain a family's lifestyle. It's something that's done as a last resort to prevent death.

Likewise, when you read about honour killings, the perps usually have a sick / twisted view of the world that is abnormal. In typical families, where concepts of "shame" might exist, it would be more usual for the parents / familes to either (1) be a hypocrite and turn a blind eye to their son/daughter's "transgressions" whilst criticising others (so that everyone is in no doubt what their values are), (2) lie or fail to disclose whatever their son/daughter did, so it just becomes a "shameful" secret or (3) disown their son/daughter. Murder is murder, there's no "culture" in which murder becomes acceptable as a way of helping someone deal with their own fragile ego.

Also, there's a strange juxtaposition between honour crime and child brides, when the latter would itself bring shame to a family's "honour". But, it seems that some people think they must occur with equal frequency "in some cultures". Felt I had to add this as a counterweight to those comments.

The son is half Polish.
He has the right to his birth Mother's ancestry.
He was deprived of it.
As was Sara.

The son is now a fugitive as other kids in this family.
They all suffer in alien to them environment.

 

[PoirotPink]

So the father lied to the travel agent and said they had to fly urgently to visit a sick relative.

Text messages - so it may have been another person composing the texts, perhaps the *new" wife / Sara's step-mother. Instinctively, I'm thinking this may have been the step-mother scapegoating the child and a beating that went too far, as others have mentioned. It's usually the eldest daughter who's scapegoated in "narcissistic family systems" and / or she might have been scapegoated as a step-child with the boy protected because of his gender.

Also, reading the Daily Mail article that was linked in a post (earlier comment), it sounds as though the family went straight to the wife's relatives' house (with the father visiting his brother alone). Although, it's impossible to know for certain, this might suggest that the wife has played the bigger role in the plan to flee the country and the organisational efforts behind it.

I haven't caught up with the whole thread yet, so apologies if I'm referring to out of date / discredited info.

 

[Legally Bland]

Text messages - so it may have been another person composing the texts, perhaps the *new" wife / Sara's step-mother. Instinctively, I'm thinking this may have been the step-mother scapegoating the child and a beating that went too far, as others have mentioned. It's usually the eldest daughter who's scapegoated in "narcissistic family systems" and / or she might have been scapegoated as a step-child with the boy protected because of his gender.

Also, reading the Daily Mail article that was linked in a post (earlier comment), it sounds as though the family went straight to the wife's relatives' house (with the father visiting his brother alone). Although, it's impossible to know for certain, this might suggest that the wife has played the bigger role in the plan to flee the country and the organisational efforts behind it.

I haven't caught up with the whole thread yet, so apologies if I'm referring to out of date / discredited info.

I may well have missed that it was a text message, but I thought it was via Whatsapp which is text/phone/video calling.

 

[Skigh]

Text messages - so it may have been another person composing the texts, perhaps the *new" wife / Sara's step-mother. Instinctively, I'm thinking this may have been the step-mother scapegoating the child and a beating that went too far, as others have mentioned. It's usually the eldest daughter who's scapegoated in "narcissistic family systems" and / or she might have been scapegoated as a step-child with the boy protected because of his gender.

Also, reading the Daily Mail article that was linked in a post (earlier comment), it sounds as though the family went straight to the wife's relatives' house (with the father visiting his brother alone). Although, it's impossible to know for certain, this might suggest that the wife has played the bigger role in the plan to flee the country and the organisational efforts behind it.

I haven't caught up with the whole thread yet, so apologies if I'm referring to out of date / discredited info.

The travel agent says he had a phone call first ,then WhatsApp messages. The brother paid for the tickets. There is a video report at the beginning of this report where the interviewer is speaking with the travel agent.

https://www.itv.com/news/london/2023-08-17/messages-reveal-one-way-flights-booked-by-family-member-of-girl-found-dead

 

[Skigh]

I may well have missed that it was a text message, but I thought it was via Whatsapp which is text/phone/video calling.

You are correct it was by WhatsApp.

 

[vls12345]

I think they knew if they called for help, the remaining children would be removed from their care during an investigation (based on the reporting of ongoing, long term abuse toward Sara).

So, they fled to protect their own hides as well as to have the other children with/near the extended family in Pakistan (in case they do get caught). Basically trying to ensure who has control/custody of the kids should they get arrested.

My speculation only.

 

[kittythehare]

Some people notice some of the time, and sometimes those people who notice act on that, and sometimes, that action might help a child.

The sad fact is, there are a substantial number of kids who go through hell at home and the people around them don't notice. Even when they're in a position to spend time with the child. Even when they're mandatory reporters and have training in what the signs of child abuse can look like.

Sometimes, the first sign anyone notices that a child is being abused is when they turn up dead.

And then on the flipside, you've got cases like that of Gabriel Fernandez, where there were so many signs, when those signs went on for months, and where dozens of people failed to prevent what happened.

And there's a whole spectrum of stuff in between, from clear and obvious to completely hidden to everyone but those who lived in the home.

The fact is, as much as we'd like to think that we would notice or that the child would give us a clear sign, abusers can be very good at covering their tracks, and kids can be very good at compartmentalising the abuse to endure their existence, but also often feel they need to keep the abuse hidden, out of fear or out of love for their abuser, or both.

Unless this case sees a court room, we may never know the full circumstances of Sara's life and death, just that they were painful, and that her time here was far too short, and that someone who should have been the safest and most caring person in the world to her was responsible.

MOO

People may well notice. Teachers are trained to notice and they quite frequently do.
Ref

UK - Sara Sharif, 10, found murdered in house, Surrey, Aug 2023 *POIs sought*

I wonder what the father said in the call, I believe he identified as her father, having sole custody … I really wonder what he made up in that call …

www.websleuths.com

This is a widened timeline.

 

[BaronessWombat]

JMO

Sara being sad or withdrawn may have been attributed to her mother not being in contact. Injuries may have been covered up by clothing or a long absence from school for a "family funeral in Pakistan". She may have moved schools frequently (they have definitely moved house at least once recently) School staff are not infallible. We get detailed training on FGM and radicalisation and the processes for reporting, but not much on injuries surprisingly. Even if there were reports of low level neglect it takes a lot for children to be removed. (Which is why I'm wondering what the issues with the birth mother was) There should have been midwife and health visitor involvement with the little ones but maybe not as much as they were probably pandemic babies?

I'd like to think if there was direct evidence of injury something would have been done. If it turns out files haven't been passed on or issues were ignored then heads should roll.

 

[kittythehare]

JMO

Sara being sad or withdrawn may have been attributed to her mother not being in contact. Injuries may have been covered up by clothing or a long absence from school for a "family funeral in Pakistan". She may have moved schools frequently (they have definitely moved house at least once recently) School staff are not infallible. We get detailed training on FGM and radicalisation and the processes for reporting, but not much on injuries surprisingly. Even if there were reports of low level neglect it takes a lot for children to be removed. (Which is why I'm wondering what the issues with the birth mother was) There should have been midwife and health visitor involvement with the little ones but maybe not as much as they were probably pandemic babies?

I'd like to think if there was direct evidence of injury something would have been done. If it turns out files haven't been passed on or issues were ignored then heads should roll.

when i first read a description of the beating i took it to mean an extended session. One.
But reading today's remarks makes it clear she had been beaten on an ongoing basis.
And these were severe beatings.

Depending on the severity of her injuries.
It's most likely she was kept home from school.

 

[kittythehare]

I think they knew if they called for help, the remaining children would be removed from their care during an investigation (based on the reporting of ongoing, long term abuse toward Sara).

So, they fled to protect their own hides as well as to have the other children with/near the extended family in Pakistan (in case they do get caught). Basically trying to ensure who has control/custody of the kids should they get arrested.

My speculation only.

The mother got visitation rights or at least some rights when he was awarded custody, right?
If he is now in another country with her son, how can she exercise these rights, if she chooses to?
Could this be an additional charge and more leverage for extradition , if Pakistan agrees?

 

[iamshadow21]

when i first read a description of the beating i took it to mean an extended session. One.
But reading today's remarks makes it clear she had been beaten on an ongoing basis.
And these were severe beatings.

Depending on the severity of her injuries.
It's most likely she was kept home from school.

In my experience following child abuse death cases, I think that if this ever sees a trial, we're going to hear evidence of severe bruising all over, bones in various stages of healing, perhaps even sharp force injuries or burns (child abuse victims often have cigarette burns if their abuser is a smoker). I think she's going to be malnourished. I think cause of death may be a beating, but could be something else. I don't know yet if we'll see sexual trauma on that list. Could be, might not be. There's a possibility she might have been habitually bound or imprisoned in a cabinet or cupboard. I think that it's all going to be very hard to hear.

This is all very much my opinion only, I have no more information than any of you right now.