Who are the couple people are referring to? Is it the LL and his wife and not CV and wife?
UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #2
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Who are the couple people are referring to? Is it the LL and his wife and not CV and wife?
WestLondoner
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The couple were a man of about 25 and his wife aged about SJL's age who were apparently best buddies. They were supposed to meet the day SJL disappeared. The wife was initially involved in establishing the SLT.
They are interesting because they were a separate bit of her social circle from the so-called "Putney Set". It may have been possible through them to trace some of the mystery people in her life - for example, there was a rich guy living in Mayfair whom she apparently was involved with, and whom the police never identified.
She had been planning to go into business with them and money had been spent acquiring premises. SJL started to cool off on the idea, relations cooled and the man was bankrupted 8 days after SJL disappeared. They divorced a few years later.
SJL had mentioned to her uncle that someone was pressuring her, and so the conjecture forms in some quarters that this chap on the verge of bankruptcy was that someone. Possibly his bankruptcy had crystallised because he had sunk money into the project SJL had cooled on. Possibly she was having an affair with him. It's not hard to think of reasons a confrontation might have occurred. The trouble with this as a hypothesis is that, like JC-did-it, it's entirely 100% conjecture. There's no evidence at all for any of it. One can think up reasons there might have been an angry row, but there's no evidence that there actually was.
The wife has since become a sex advice writer and newspaper columnist, and TV talking head. Despite an obvious appetite for self-publicity, she has never mentioned her connection to SJL since.
If we suppose that 37SR was a fake appointment and SJL did not go there, then probably she went to the PoW. If she didn't go there either we have no idea where else she might have been going, other than by interviewing all her mates - such as this couple - to identify everybody she knew.
For me the JC theory is debunked by the unreliability of the only witness, and by the absence of any solid evidence to put him there. If she went to the PoW and was killed and hidden by CV / A N Other, then she's either where DV says she is, or she's on the adjacent railway embankment, both of which have probably lain undisturbed since 1986. CV was interim manager for two weeks, so after the permanent LL returned, he'd have had no chance to re-conceal her body; and in fact with his partner around he would have had scant opportunity during those two weeks either.
It beggars belief that the pub wasn't searched on 28.7.86, frankly. She hasn't yet been firmly placed at 37SR and she had told the pub she was coming over - so what happened? Did she come or not? Why was nobody curious?
They are interesting because they were a separate bit of her social circle from the so-called "Putney Set". It may have been possible through them to trace some of the mystery people in her life - for example, there was a rich guy living in Mayfair whom she apparently was involved with, and whom the police never identified.
She had been planning to go into business with them and money had been spent acquiring premises. SJL started to cool off on the idea, relations cooled and the man was bankrupted 8 days after SJL disappeared. They divorced a few years later.
SJL had mentioned to her uncle that someone was pressuring her, and so the conjecture forms in some quarters that this chap on the verge of bankruptcy was that someone. Possibly his bankruptcy had crystallised because he had sunk money into the project SJL had cooled on. Possibly she was having an affair with him. It's not hard to think of reasons a confrontation might have occurred. The trouble with this as a hypothesis is that, like JC-did-it, it's entirely 100% conjecture. There's no evidence at all for any of it. One can think up reasons there might have been an angry row, but there's no evidence that there actually was.
The wife has since become a sex advice writer and newspaper columnist, and TV talking head. Despite an obvious appetite for self-publicity, she has never mentioned her connection to SJL since.
If we suppose that 37SR was a fake appointment and SJL did not go there, then probably she went to the PoW. If she didn't go there either we have no idea where else she might have been going, other than by interviewing all her mates - such as this couple - to identify everybody she knew.
For me the JC theory is debunked by the unreliability of the only witness, and by the absence of any solid evidence to put him there. If she went to the PoW and was killed and hidden by CV / A N Other, then she's either where DV says she is, or she's on the adjacent railway embankment, both of which have probably lain undisturbed since 1986. CV was interim manager for two weeks, so after the permanent LL returned, he'd have had no chance to re-conceal her body; and in fact with his partner around he would have had scant opportunity during those two weeks either.
It beggars belief that the pub wasn't searched on 28.7.86, frankly. She hasn't yet been firmly placed at 37SR and she had told the pub she was coming over - so what happened? Did she come or not? Why was nobody curious?
Who are the couple people are referring to? Is it the LL and his wife and not CV and wife?
Thanks I didn’t know about the couple ,was that the minor celebrity DV would not comment about in the YouTube chat ? Yes shocking pub was not searched , whole thing is shocking tbh, wish DV could get help from police to search the pub , I wonder how family feel about it and if they would want it done for closure ? I know I would
The couple we’re talking about IMO were outside 37 SR and were seen by HR. Most likely they found out from one of the Sturgis staff that SJL way going there.
This being the case they were looking for her and at that point had not located her.
On this basis (as you say) the next most likely place she would have gone was the PoW. DV reached this conclusion by “just following the timeline”.
As you point out the male in this couple would have been annoyed because he’d set up this business and now SJL walked away.
It’s also very likely she was avoiding them because they were putting pressure on her to go through with the business venture.
This would dovetail with the alleged phone calls CV received during the afternoon (doesn’t mean he’s innocent). One from a woman & the other a male police officer.
We know that the second call is bogus because at this point the police are not involved.
This narrative raises some questions:
- Did the couple separate are start looking for SJL?
- If they did, the female had not found her, but what about the male?
- CV’s later inclusion of these phone calls is more than a little strange, tends to indicate they were genuine?
- It leaves the possibility that CV didn’t mention the calls the first time he was questioned by police because he didn’t want them coming back to the PoW again?
It looks to me that they were looking for SJL at the time and didn’t find her, but CV did.
Have just received the AS book which I am looking forward to reading , what does anyone think of the WJ sighting of Suzy’s car ? IMO it seemed plausible as she got last part of number plate right but then again not the timing ? Of course there could have been fleet of sturgis cars with same reg as commented
i think she saw Suzy personally and I know others are not so convinced but for me it ties in.
I believe the car was ditched after 4pm that afternoon.
MOO
This theory has crossed my mind, as we know the SS knew Suzy. How likely is it though that he'd then become a temporary pub landlord in her local, and also she would lose her items, needing to return to the pub to collect them while he was there?
CV returns to the North after the stint at the PoW. SS wasn't thought to have lived in the North as far as I know. So unless this info is in the book to help not to identify the SS directly as Suzy's killer, I don't think he's the perp and I feel it's just a coincidence that they knew one another.
WiseOwl
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WJ's sighting is almost certainly incorrect, DV confirms this in his book.
There's a possibility she may have seen it later that afternoon, and many of us on this thread believe the car was probably left there sometime between 4.00 & 5.00.
The owner of the garage where Suzy's car was parked partially over the driveway confirmed it was there when he arrived home from work at 5.15 pm.
DV can not confirm anything as he wasn’t there. It doesn’t fit his theory so he discarded it. That’s not confirmation by any stretch.
Until he shows proof then his theory is no better than anybody else’s. For somebody who claims he knows the answers he won’t press forward and prove his working theory because then his entire book will gave to be binned.
MOO
Am I right in recalling (and forgive me if I am not!) that DV really only proved that WJ didn't remember his car outside her house on the day he visited? This doesn't categorically prove or disprove what she believes she recalls from 30+ years earlier...
WestLondoner
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The difficulty about this hypothesis is this part. Someone would have had to phone or visit Sturgis and ask where SJL was. They'd have to do this soon after SJL left, not at 3pm for instance, otherwise the staff would have said Yeah, good question, where is she? They'd then have had to check her diary, tell these people where she'd gone (would they even do that? Wouldn't they just say "She's on a viewing, have a seat"?), and then completely forget the entire exchange - that someone went looking for SJL at the address from which she then disappeared - when interviewed by the police. They'd also have to forget immediately where she was going, because when she was missed, her diary had to be checked to find out where she'd gone. It would have been an obviously crucial piece of information and I just don't see how it would have been overlooked.
I think that's correct. It's not in doubt that she saw the car, because it was found outside her house. What's in doubt is from when. Two BT workers were there until 4pm and saw nothing. It's not that they're more reliable witnesses, it's that the car was dumped in a hurry - badly parked, door left unlocked, overlapping a driveway, seat pushed back to accommodate a bigger driver. This strongly suggests the car was driven there by someone other than SJL, presumably the killer, and I just don't see that he'd have dumped the car with two potential witnesses working yards away in the street. He'd just have found a different street instead.
So yes, WJ saw it, but just not when she thinks. She said she saw it at 12.45, which would mean before SJL had even left the office in it. The fact that she's a hopeless witness today is just another data point against her reliability in 1986.
You think WJ saw SJL? Has she ever claimed that? You're not thinking of BW are you?
I don't think the suggestion is that CV is the SS. The suggestion is that SS and SJL were acquaintances so he might have been able to abduct her without creating a spectacle. He's known to kill women. The case for this is similar to but slightly better than that against JC: it's the kind of thing they did, no reliable witness puts either of them there, but SJL and the SS had worked on the same ship at the same time so may at least have met. We have zero evidence that SJL and JC ever met.
Well, we don't know if DV had formed his theory when he met WJ. It's likelier I think that he saw this as knocking another brick out of the Jenga tower that is the police case against JC, and he then went off on another track.
The issue for me about the 37SR theory is that everything supporting it rests on an inverted pyramid whose apex is the HR sighting. First he said he saw a blonde woman (how blonde was she?), but not that it was SJL. He said he saw a man, and an artist produced a sketch. If we look at the timeline, all the other Kipper/37SR stories and sightings post-date that police press conference in which HR was assumed to be reliable.
Prompted by this initial HR "sighting" lots of other sightings of the bloke were volunteered. But was even his original sighting ever accurate, or did HR just want to get involved? MG asked if he'd seen a woman and a man, and he had. The police asked if he'd seen a woman abducted, and yes he had. Then the police say You what!? And you never mentioned this before? And then no, he hadn't.
If the HR sighting is compromised and the WJ sighting is also compromised then nothing puts SJL anywhere near 37SR. Everything else that purports to is derived from those; without HR the pyramid collapses.
The keys point is a bit more convincing than it seems, given the way office relationships work. SJL hit her targets and was a reliable worker, so MG doesn't mind if she slips out now and then. On that day, she slipped out without the keys and left a helpful get-out for MG in her diary. The Big Honch and MG come back from lunch, and the BH says, Where is everybody? MG says Well, JC is on holiday, NH is at his desk and SL...let's see. He walks over and checks her diary. Yep, she's at a viewing.
BH is satisfied and leaves. He does not say Lies! Lies! Check if she took the keys! And later MG can say, if he has to, Well, I just went by what she said in her diary. He told no lie. He repeated hers. In other words, if SJL had made a big pantomime of taking the keys, this would only have been if she intended to deceive MG. She didn't need to deceive MG because he wasn't like that, but she put a fake entry in so he wouldn't be embarrassed if asked where she was. It would her fibbing to the BH, not him.
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WiseOwl
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Well even if you discard DV's theory then do we believe WJ's story about seeing Suzy's car parked opposite her house in Stevenage Road from around 12.30 - 45, or do we believe the Sturgis staff as they said she left the office around 12.40? Both of them cannot be right about the time.
And what about the two workmen who were there from 9.00 until 4.00? Both said they never saw the car or anything suspicious yet they were apparently only working yards from where the car was found? Yet a cab driver claimed he had seen the car parked at 2.00 that afternoon?
So many contradictions, the only real definitive one is the owner of the garage who saw the car at 5.15.
yes that’s correct she got his car wrong but yes you are right doesn’t prove anything , only thing is WJ timings weren’t right I think ?
Problem with this case is that we only have theories and very few facts. I think while HR may be an unreliable witness, he seemed to be (as a lot of people are when a house is up for sale) a bit of a curtain twitcher. His nature would result in him noticing a good looking male, while not really paying much attention to the female, nothing wrong with this, but it would explain why his account of the female is vague.
So by coincidence I'd say that a couple was outside 37 SR that lunchtime, if they were waiting for SJL they got the information from somewhere, maybe from SJL herself, its just possible that SJL was not trying to avoid them and for some strange reason told them she was going to the PoW and would then pick them up outside 37 SR. I appreciate this has holes, but then so does most of the theories put forward.
Its also possible that after she vanished without trace the couple stayed out of it because they had absolutely nothing to do with her disappearance, additionally, DV left them out because he also feels they had nothing to do with her disappearance.
DV left that couple out as he was obviously scared of being sued. On that podcast he did he wouldn’t speak about them at all. It’s the same reason he changed CV’s name. CV obviously isn’t famous and he is less scared of the repercussions and figured he changed his name so it’s ok.
moo
moo
Agree with you, if you look at the couple they have a lot of influence and from DV’s point of view being sued is not an option.
While I don’t see this as the right way to deal with it, there’s no other option. IMO they most likely had nothing to do with SJL’s disappearance, but had a good reason to stay clear of any police investigation.
WestLondoner
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DV doesn't need to involve this couple anyway. His conjecture is that SJL went not to 37SR but to the PoW, and died there. As no witnesses for this were sought at the time, there's nobody he can really re-interview, other of course than the actual suspect pool - the people at the PoW. The only way he's going to establish if he's right at this point is if the place is searched and she's found there or near there.
Given that you'd need detailed knowledge of - and access to - the pub's non-public areas and interior to have concealed her there, the people with some serious explaining to do would be CV, the mysterious Brendan the cellarman, and perhaps Mrs CV. No third party stranger bumped into her there, killed her, decided to hide her inside the pub, sneaked her body inside and downstairs into the cellar, then got lucky and found the perfect hiding place under the floor before escaping likewise undetected. That did not happen. No, if she's there, SJL can't have ended up there without the knowledge of at least one of those three. Only two of them knew she was coming - CV and Mrs CV - so that eliminates Brendan. So CV or Mrs CV would then need to explain how she got there.
So on that basis, either CV did it, or someone else did it and CV at minimum helped him cover it up. Either way, he's in deep trouble if she's found there.
This scenario means HR was entirely wrong. The likeliest explanation for his contribution is that he was describing the visit by MG and SF. All later Mr Kipper sightings are then based on HR's erroneous account.
WJ was wrong only about the time she saw the car. It can't have been there at 12.30 but it could have been there by about 4pm. CV kills SJL, hides her under the dining room floor then realises her car will give him away. He had to get rid of it, so he dumps it across the river and gets the tube back.
The problem with this is the BW sighting. If SJL is under the pub, then BW is wrong about seeing her. If she's not, then we have to go back to BW and ask ourselves what she saw.
The wealthy couple are thus neither here nor there. If she's under the pub it's most likely CV who put her there and if he wants to involve said wealthy couple this would be his chance....
Given that you'd need detailed knowledge of - and access to - the pub's non-public areas and interior to have concealed her there, the people with some serious explaining to do would be CV, the mysterious Brendan the cellarman, and perhaps Mrs CV. No third party stranger bumped into her there, killed her, decided to hide her inside the pub, sneaked her body inside and downstairs into the cellar, then got lucky and found the perfect hiding place under the floor before escaping likewise undetected. That did not happen. No, if she's there, SJL can't have ended up there without the knowledge of at least one of those three. Only two of them knew she was coming - CV and Mrs CV - so that eliminates Brendan. So CV or Mrs CV would then need to explain how she got there.
So on that basis, either CV did it, or someone else did it and CV at minimum helped him cover it up. Either way, he's in deep trouble if she's found there.
This scenario means HR was entirely wrong. The likeliest explanation for his contribution is that he was describing the visit by MG and SF. All later Mr Kipper sightings are then based on HR's erroneous account.
WJ was wrong only about the time she saw the car. It can't have been there at 12.30 but it could have been there by about 4pm. CV kills SJL, hides her under the dining room floor then realises her car will give him away. He had to get rid of it, so he dumps it across the river and gets the tube back.
The problem with this is the BW sighting. If SJL is under the pub, then BW is wrong about seeing her. If she's not, then we have to go back to BW and ask ourselves what she saw.
The wealthy couple are thus neither here nor there. If she's under the pub it's most likely CV who put her there and if he wants to involve said wealthy couple this would be his chance....
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I wonder if perhaps SJL fell down cellar stairs could have banged her head even, CV would not call police as perhaps he did something afterwards? Was diary put deliberately in cellar, IMO I would have told him to bring it up to me please , also taking into consideration suzy was reported to be claustrophobic
MOO
MOO
The only way forward is for both the PoW and the Network Rail embankment to be searched.
This would either put CV firmly in the frame or eliminate him.
If it’s the former then it’s case closed, if it’s the later then you need to consider what he has said and look into the female caller and the male fake policeman.
The Network Rail embankment looks like it’s not been disturbed since the 1980’s. The area directly behind the PoW is a long way from the actual railway line, so no real need to access it for maintenance.
Given the level of overgrown vegetation it would be difficult to complete an inspection.
IMO the use of trained dogs would provide a way of pinpointing areas of interest.
If SJL is on the railway embankment it’s very important to maintain any forensic evidence that might be present.
DV has outlined this, and I believe he has a valid point.
Completing these inspections is the best option, especially now the Met seem to have acknowledged that SJL never made it to 37 SR.
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