UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #4

[Cluesleuth]

1. Other than NB did anyone else have a key SJL's flat?

2. Other than the delivery of the flowers, had she had a visit from a Utility comp elec, gas or water meter reader in the week before she went missing?

3. Other than SJL herself were other agents offering her flat for sale? - were Sturgis offering it and did they hold printed details in the property for sale drawer?

4. Had SJL shown anyone over the flat in the 2 weeks prior to her disappearance - potential buyers, or property finders..

 

[asyousay]

Well I have just caught up and it’s interesting that AL denies they went to the POW for drinks.

So then is CV lying about where he found it as he went to Mossops for food but why lie?

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Well I have just caught up and it’s interesting that AL denies they went to the POW for drinks.

So then is CV lying about where he found it as he went to Mossops for food but why lie?

Although in the documentary previously identified, AL clearly states that they went to the 'pub next door' for a drink after the restaurant meal.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I'm picturing the diary as one like this

Simply Slim Diary Week To View 2022 • Colemans

Slimline diary week to view format. Ideal to slip into a pocket or handbag

www.colemangroup.co.uk

I used to carry one of these, it kept track of the dates I was working plus appointments, and it had sections for phone numbers, addresses and general notes. It would have been roughly the same size as my cheque book, just a little shorter.

I remember everyone used to have some sort of a personal diary back in the 80s - that's what led to 'Filofaxes' becoming all the rage in the 90s before smart phones and small handheld devices superseded the need for them. In the office, we'd have large page-a-day day diaries, at home you'd have your phone and address book and the BT phone directory next to the phone.

About your person you'd have a diary for personal arrangements and reminders - a young woman as active as SJL would certainly have needed a diary to remember all her personal arrangements, no doubt written in code if she was meeting different men who all believed they were her 'boyfriend'. To an aggrieved lover or spurned interest, that diary would have been anything from a nosy curiosity all the way to absolute proof of betrayal. To a coercive controlling abuser it would have been gold dust leverage. Ditto the cheque book - we all used to write in the stub what we'd spent a cheque on and it was somewhat evidence of our movements.

 

[WiseOwl]

I don't have the AS book. I borrowed it from the library and have returned it, so I'm unable to give page references.

As you yourself mentioned, the police needed to take statements from 11 people to establish AL's alibi, therefore it follows that he met with these eleven people, probably separately, during the course of the day. I don't know where he worked, but "the office" you refer to was likely not a single room but a suite of separate rooms and offices. So even if he didn't leave his work premises, except for the outside meeting, he was probably not in the same room all day.

I would like to point out that 'the office' i am referring to is what AS calls AL's place of work in his book, it's not a reference that I have personally come up with.

As you have returned AS's book to the library, let me refresh you on what AL states he did on the day Suzy disappeared - comments in brackets are mine.

Chapter Two, pages 16 - 17:

AL reached the office about 9.00 am. He had meetings in the morning (it doesn't state how many or who with), also he had one meeting out of the office (again it doesn't state who with, what time or where this meeting took place).

He went to lunch (time not stated) with a women friend (not named) in her company's (not named) dining room in the City, and more meetings throughout the afternoon (again it doesn't state how many or who with). He stayed in his office until 7.00 pm, then he left for a prearranged dinner (again not stating where or who with).

AS refers to it as 'the office' or 'his office' so I am presuming it is just the one room, as opposed to various meetings in various rooms that day. Just MOO of course!

 

[Cluesleuth]

I would like to point out that 'the office' i am referring to is what AS calls AL's place of work in his book, it's not a reference that I have personally come up with.

As you have returned AS's book to the library, let me refresh you on what AL states he did on the day Suzy disappeared - comments in brackets are mine.

Chapter Two, pages 16 - 17:

AL reached the office about 9.00 am. He had meetings in the morning (it doesn't state how many or who with), also he had one meeting out of the office (again it doesn't state who with, what time or where this meeting took place).

He went to lunch (time not stated) with a women friend (not named) in her company's (not named) dining room in the City, and more meetings throughout the afternoon (again it doesn't state how many or who with). He stayed in his office until 7.00 pm, then he left for a prearranged dinner (again not stating where or who with).

AS refers to it as 'the office' or 'his office' so I am presuming it is just the one room, as opposed to various meetings in various rooms that day. Just MOO of course!

He went to lunch (time not stated) with a women friend (not named) in her company's (not named) dining room in the City

1. Had SJL also arranged to meet them for lunch?
2. Was the woman friend a member of the Putney Set?

MOO

 

[EddietheEagle]

Plenty of office people drank at lunchtimes in those days, it had no stigma attached to it back then. All through the late 80s and 90s I worked in offices including some within the civil service. Many people from the post room up to senior management would go for 'a couple' at lunchtime. At the BBC we even had Licence fee payer subsidised bars in every building, such was the severity of drinking culture until recent years. It's not long since we all had huge ashtrays on our desks and smoked in the office. If someone didn't drink, they were considered 'suspicious'. Things have changed A LOT since before the millennium, work culture has changed such a lot.

It certainly had a stigma attached were you stopped by police and breathalysed. SL was out in her car and I question whether she would happily have partaken of a glass of champagne with JC in Bishop's Park given the subsequent risk. By all accounts she behaved responsibly in her work and that involved constant use of her car. On the other hand, she didn't seem to have much on by way of appointments that fatal afternoon. You can argue either way.

At some point in the afternoon she was abducted. Did this occur immediately in Shorrolds Rd or later? Did HR observe SL being bundled into her car in Shorrolds Rd? I was trying to get to possible scenarios around when he struck and the manner of his approach. JC is known to have attempted abduction in broad daylight using an imitation gun. I'm thinking, however, this may have been more of a planned, more gradual abduction, what with the champagne, witness evidence of prior stalking behaviour and the possible/probable likelihood of the two already being acquainted, albeit to an unknown extent.

 

[Konstantin]

It certainly had a stigma attached were you stopped by police and breathalysed. SL was out in her car and I question whether she would happily have partaken of a glass of champagne with JC in Bishop's Park given the subsequent risk. By all accounts she behaved responsibly in her work and that involved constant use of her car. On the other hand, she didn't seem to have much on by way of appointments that fatal afternoon. You can argue either way.

From what has been written about SJL in AS's book, I think it was extremely unlikely she would have gone to have a glass of champagne in a park, the accounts of her from her colleagues were that she was extremely diligent and did not take unauthorized long lunches. She would have wanted to be back at her desk taking phone calls that could lead to sales (and to commission for her). SJL was ambitious and good at her job, by all reports. It's why her colleagues got worried about her when she didn't return. It was really out of character.

This is the main reason why I think that the woman who says she saw SJL in her white Fiesta later that afternoon driving with a man was mistaken. It would have been a very long absence from work, totally uncharacteristic. I think the abduction must have happened fairly soon after she left.

 

[Konstantin]

He went to lunch (time not stated) with a women friend (not named) in her company's (not named) dining room in the City

1. Had SJL also arranged to meet them for lunch?
2. Was the woman friend a member of the Putney Set?

MOO

I think AL would have told the police if SJL had arranged to meet him for lunch. THere was no indication that she did and the CIty is not very near to Fulham so not really a venue for her to meet for a lunch during a busy working day. AL was eliminated, so his alibi was thoroughly checked.

 

[WestLondoner]

From what has been written about SJL in AS's book, I think it was extremely unlikely she would have gone to have a glass of champagne in a park, the accounts of her from her colleagues were that she was extremely diligent and did not take unauthorized long lunches. She would have wanted to be back at her desk taking phone calls that could lead to sales (and to commission for her). SJL was ambitious and good at her job, by all reports. It's why her colleagues got worried about her when she didn't return. It was really out of character.

This is the main reason why I think that the woman who says she saw SJL in her white Fiesta later that afternoon driving with a man was mistaken. It would have been a very long absence from work, totally uncharacteristic. I think the abduction must have happened fairly soon after she left.

Well, unless she had already been abducted at that point. If so the BW sighting undermines the WJ car sighting.

 

[Cluesleuth]

I think AL would have told the police if SJL had arranged to meet him for lunch. THere was no indication that she did and the CIty is not very near to Fulham so not really a venue for her to meet for a lunch during a busy working day. AL was eliminated, so his alibi was thoroughly checked.

Its clear police checked AL's alibi out and he was elimated Im not questioning that.

I was just wondering if there could have been a casual invite for SJl to join them.. but SJL had turned up.

JMO

 

[WiseOwl]

From what has been written about SJL in AS's book, I think it was extremely unlikely she would have gone to have a glass of champagne in a park, the accounts of her from her colleagues were that she was extremely diligent and did not take unauthorized long lunches. She would have wanted to be back at her desk taking phone calls that could lead to sales (and to commission for her). SJL was ambitious and good at her job, by all reports. It's why her colleagues got worried about her when she didn't return. It was really out of character.

This is the main reason why I think that the woman who says she saw SJL in her white Fiesta later that afternoon driving with a man was mistaken. It would have been a very long absence from work, totally uncharacteristic. I think the abduction must have happened fairly soon after she left.

Let's not forget the possibility that if Suzy was indeed in the car with a man then he could have been in possession of a weapon and forcing her to drive somewhere. I'm pretty sure if this was the case then Suzy being late back from lunch wouldn't have cut much ice with him.

As Suzy only took her purse with her then it seems likely she didn't intend to be away from the office for too long, so my scenario would be that she was abducted fairly soon after meeting someone that lunchtime - say around 1.00 pm.

For the BW sighting to be correct then it could mean that Suzy was taken somewhere around 1.00 and maybe assaulted before being forced to get back in her car and drive again? This then could link it to the sighting around 2.30.

I don't like to think about what happened to Suzy after this but at some point the person responsible parked her car in Stevenage Road.

In a book I have just read 'Unsolved Crimes (Case Files from the People and Daily Mirror)', there is a section on Suzy and on page 108 it states that the police believed that her car was parked in Stevenage Road between 3.00 - 5.00 pm that afternoon. If that is true then the BW sighting has to be considered a possibility and not discounted completely.

 

[Cherwell]

I would like to point out that 'the office' i am referring to is what AS calls AL's place of work in his book, it's not a reference that I have personally come up with.

As you have returned AS's book to the library, let me refresh you on what AL states he did on the day Suzy disappeared - comments in brackets are mine.

Chapter Two, pages 16 - 17:

AL reached the office about 9.00 am. He had meetings in the morning (it doesn't state how many or who with), also he had one meeting out of the office (again it doesn't state who with, what time or where this meeting took place).

He went to lunch (time not stated) with a women friend (not named) in her company's (not named) dining room in the City, and more meetings throughout the afternoon (again it doesn't state how many or who with). He stayed in his office until 7.00 pm, then he left for a prearranged dinner (again not stating where or who with).

AS refers to it as 'the office' or 'his office' so I am presuming it is just the one room, as opposed to various meetings in various rooms that day. Just MOO of course!

Then I don't understand why you queried what I wrote earlier - that "he had a lot of meetings with various people in various places that day, as opposed to being sitting in the same office with the same people all day."

"The office" is a generic term for place of work. In the 80s I worked in an office that was spread over three floors of a building and had enclosed offices and conference rooms as well as open-plan areas. Everyone referred to it as "the office" or "work" as in "back to the office" or "back to work".

Perhaps he did work in a single room and the people he met all came ot his room. We don't know, and it doesn't matter. What is important is that there were people who could confirm that he was with somebody all day.

 

[WiseOwl]

Then I don't understand why you queried what I wrote earlier - that "he had a lot of meetings with various people in various places that day, as opposed to being sitting in the same office with the same people all day."

"The office" is a generic term for place of work. In the 80s I worked in an office that was spread over three floors of a building and had enclosed offices and conference rooms as well as open-plan areas. Everyone referred to it as "the office" or "work" as in "back to the office" or "back to work".

Perhaps he did work in a single room and the people he met all came ot his room. We don't know, and it doesn't matter. What is important is that there were people who could confirm that he was with somebody all day.

Because in your first reply you mentioned he had been to 'various places' - which could have meant anywhere. You didn't specify that you meant places in the same building.

It was only in your following post that you explained what you meant by various places - you meant different offices in the same building.

 

[Cluesleuth]

In a book I have just read 'Unsolved Crimes (Case Files from the People and Daily Mirror)', there is a section on Suzy and on page 108 it states that the police believed that her car was parked in Stevenage Road between 3.00 - 5.00 pm that afternoon. If that is true then the BW sighting has to be considered a possibility and not discounted completely.

AS book pg 37 MJ a waitress who lived on Stevenage rd reported seeing a female standing outside a hse in Stevenage rd that had a For Sale sign outside. There's no mention of the time of her sighting but it could be important.
Does anyone have any details of the time of MJ's sighting?

 

[Cherwell]

Because in your first reply you mentioned he had been to 'various places' - which could have meant anywhere. You didn't specify that you meant places in the same building. It was only in your following post that you explained what you meant by various places - you meant different offices in the same building.

It doesn't matter as long as all his time was accounted for, which it clearly was.

 

[Konstantin]

Well, unless she had already been abducted at that point. If so the BW sighting undermines the WJ car sighting.

Yes, it would.

Let's not forget the possibility that if Suzy was indeed in the car with a man then he could have been in possession of a weapon and forcing her to drive somewhere. I'm pretty sure if this was the case then Suzy being late back from lunch wouldn't have cut much ice with him.

As Suzy only took her purse with her then it seems likely she didn't intend to be away from the office for too long, so my scenario would be that she was abducted fairly soon after meeting someone that lunchtime - say around 1.00 pm.

For the BW sighting to be correct then it could mean that Suzy was taken somewhere around 1.00 and maybe assaulted before being forced to get back in her car and drive again? This then could link it to the sighting around 2.30.

I don't like to think about what happened to Suzy after this but at some point the person responsible parked her car in Stevenage Road.

In a book I have just read 'Unsolved Crimes (Case Files from the People and Daily Mirror)', there is a section on Suzy and on page 108 it states that the police believed that her car was parked in Stevenage Road between 3.00 - 5.00 pm that afternoon. If that is true then the BW sighting has to be considered a possibility and not discounted completely.

It's possible. We don't know how anyone would react in that scenario. Her family and friends thought she would not have been forced or taken so easily as she was sporty and fit, but we don't know what threats or pressure was applied to her.

 

[Cluesleuth]

Yes, it would.


It's possible. We don't know how anyone would react in that scenario. Her family and friends thought she would not have been forced or taken so easily as she was sporty and fit, but we don't know what threats or pressure was applied to her.

Maybe this is why the sighting by the jogger coming out of Bishops Park who said a BMW was being driven at speed with horn being honked was thought could be important.
Likewise the White Van man that had to swerve to miss a Fiesta car on Kelvedon rd.

The Galway man who hired a taxi on the junction of Finlay st saw a couple having a ruck in the st.
2 housewives seperately reported hearing screams. One saying it sounded like a 'spooky high pitched yowl'

All the above lack detail exact locations and times.. no wonder we are going around in circles
JMO

 

[Konstantin]

Maybe this is why the sighting by the jogger coming out of Bishops Park who said a BMW was being driven at speed with horn being honked was thought could be important.
Likewise the White Van man that had to swerve to miss a Fiesta car on Kelvedon rd.

The Galway man who hired a taxi on the junction of Finlay st saw a couple having a ruck in the st.
2 housewives seperately reported hearing screams. One saying it sounded like a 'spooky high pitched yowl'

All the above lack detail exact locations and times.. no wonder we are going around in circles
JMO

Yes i thought of the jogger too.

In one of the documentaries, SJL's father talks about how SJL had mentioned to a family member (not, apparently, her mother-- perhaps to her sister with whom she was close) that she was scared of or apprehensive of a man she was seeing. That man was clearly not AL. None of this is mentioned in AS and I wonder if this was covered up at the time by DL who did not want her daughter to have had more than one boyfriend, and who was keen to portray AL as her only, and rather serious boyfriend (which he clearly was not).

If SJL was going out to meet someone she knew that lunchtime, perhaps it was the man she was rather apprehensive or scared of, and she wanted to somehow end things.

There are some very hazy details, including that SJL had been having strange phone calls to her flat (which her roommate told the police about) and apparently some flowers delivered (I cannot recall if to her office or to her home). That is very creepy, since whoever sent them or called knew her number and her address.

This is one reason I think her having the diary and chequebook go missing could be important, as it could mean someone was trying to find out about her.

 

[WiseOwl]

Yes i thought of the jogger too.

In one of the documentaries, SJL's father talks about how SJL had mentioned to a family member (not, apparently, her mother-- perhaps to her sister with whom she was close) that she was scared of or apprehensive of a man she was seeing. That man was clearly not AL. None of this is mentioned in AS and I wonder if this was covered up at the time by DL who did not want her daughter to have had more than one boyfriend, and who was keen to portray AL as her only, and rather serious boyfriend (which he clearly was not).

If SJL was going out to meet someone she knew that lunchtime, perhaps it was the man she was rather apprehensive or scared of, and she wanted to somehow end things.

There are some very hazy details, including that SJL had been having strange phone calls to her flat (which her roommate told the police about) and apparently some flowers delivered (I cannot recall if to her office or to her home). That is very creepy, since whoever sent them or called knew her number and her address.

This is one reason I think her having the diary and chequebook go missing could be important, as it could mean someone was trying to find out about her.

This is something i'm sure many of us on this thread have wondered about - are the diary and chequebook going missing (and subsequently turning up again) linked to Suzy's disappearance in any way? Or was it just a coincidence?