GUILTY UK - Tia Sharp, 12, New Addington, London, 3 Aug 2012 #2

[MobyBluff]

Welcome to Websleuths oldhat and everyone that has joined the past few days.

Going on memory here as I haven't lived in the UK for many years but on terraced houses (row houses or townhomes for Americans) I thought not every house had access to the loft? I also remember fire walls being virtually non-existant and no-one stored anything in the attic. If I am wrong and there is access from all houses Tia could have been moved. I can't get my head around that though.

The water tank - ours was in the airing cupboard and I think this is plausable as where Tia was stored.

Destroyer mentioned underneath the bathtub. Ours was boxed in with plywood and could easily be removed to do repairs. A body definitely could be wedged in there.

The water tank would defo have been in the loft/attic. There is always a brick wall between houses, although not unmovable. The police have admitted their error anyway, so it's unlikely to was moved to next door's attic. Water Tank was mentioned in a local store tonight by gossip mongers, but it does make sense.....unless the body was hidden in a Christmas Tree box, covered in plastic branches and not thoroughly checked. Who knows?

 

[Karenlisam]

Sky News Newsdesk‏@SkyNewsBreak

Met Police say post-mortem on body found at Tia Sharp's grandmother's house has been halted for the night, no cause of death determined.

I find this quite worrying

If forensic evidence has been lost in the 8 day gap or no cause of death can be established then if they are both criminally savvy enough to blame each other or to deny deny deny then this could get complicated

I hope there's something solid comes out in the continuation of the autopsy tomorrow . :banghead:

 

[JeannaT]

I just don't get the motive. Someone give me some idea what the motive could be. If it was SH alone then it could be sexual, but the Grandmother arrested on suspicion of murder too? Really can't then be a sexual thing can it? Seriously? Give me a motive.

I don't get a motive either, if Grandma was involved. I strongly suspect her boyfriend did this, and she covered for him. It is SO INCREDIBLY rare for a grandmother to kill a 12 year old grandchild.

 

[Leilei]

I just don't get the motive. Someone give me some idea what the motive could be. If it was SH alone then it could be sexual, but the Grandmother arrested on suspicion of murder too? Really can't then be a sexual thing can it? Seriously? Give me a motive.

It absolutely can. One case that comes to mind, although not grandparents, but siblings, is the Homolka case. I'm sure more seasoned sleuths than I can find more examples.

Motive could be anything. Tia may have threatened to tell someone (if she was being sexually abused). This guy already had a record, and he would go away for a long time if he was found to be abusing her. Heck, it could have happened *while* he was abusing her.

Ugh I hate even typing that... bless you, Tia.

 

[TheTruthWillOut]

I will just wait for more news on what the exact circumstances where surrounding the failure to find the body for now.

Just thinking about the coroner postponing the PM till tomorrow. I wonder in light of other errors in this case they will have a second pathologist perform a PM to be sure?

Wouldn't surprise me.

 

[pferrin]

I just don't get the motive. Someone give me some idea what the motive could be. If it was SH alone then it could be sexual, but the Grandmother arrested on suspicion of murder too? Really can't then be a sexual thing can it? Seriously? Give me a motive.

Hi Moby, I have been amazed and disgusted thru the years of watching cases of how demented minds can be. It could still be sexual even with grandma involved. Nothing surprises me anymore.

 

[Crazy Mama]

Perhaps Grandma has committed another crime....and when she discovered that SH had killed the girl, he might have threatened her with that...it may be something much more sinister.
Maybe this is not the 1st of their crimes together. Perhaps they became complacent........it happens.
Both of them are missing a few up there, otherwise they would have thought about cctv etc. I think that grandma only found out about the girl during this last week and then was threatened.

 

[Adorabella]

As I mentioned earlier - it could have been an accident of sorts. G'ma, from the pics I have seen has cheeks covered in broken capillaries, which could mean that she is also a heavy drinker. It would not be beyond the realms of possibility that Tia was being cheeky and a drunken G'ma clouted her so hard that she went flying and banged her head.....

Not sure that I think this is what happened but it is a possibility.

 

[Luna15]

Welcome to Websleuths oldhat and everyone that has joined the past few days.

Going on memory here as I haven't lived in the UK for many years but on terraced houses (row houses or townhomes for Americans) I thought not every house had access to the loft? I also remember fire walls being virtually non-existant and no-one stored anything in the attic. If I am wrong and there is access from all houses Tia could have been moved. I can't get my head around that though.

The water tank - ours was in the airing cupboard and I think this is plausable as where Tia was stored.

Destroyer mentioned underneath the bathtub. Ours was boxed in with plywood and could easily be removed to do repairs. A body definitely could be wedged in there.

The main water tank is in the loft.... a bit like this

that then feeds the tank in the airing cupboard

 

[squish]

Hello everyone, first post (I also tried to post yesterday but I don't think it worked)

Putrefraction

Begins after about 2 days. The process is faster in damp places or when the body is exposed to air. Decay is about eight times faster in the air than underground. Too cold or too hot and the process won't happen. In very hot temperatures the body will dry out and mummify instead.

People with a lot of fat will decay faster. People who died of bacterial disease will also decay faster. However, some poisons preserve the body.

2-3 days: green staining begins on the right side of the abdomen. Body begins to swell.

3-4 days: staining spreads. Veins go "marbled" - a browny black discoloration

5-6 days: abdomen swells with gas. Skin blisters

2 weeks: abdomen very tight and swollen.

3 weeks: tissue softens. Organs and cavities bursting. Nails fall off.

4 weeks: soft tissues begin to liquefy. Face becoming unrecognisable

4-6 months: formation of adipocere, if in damp place. This is when the fat goes all hard and waxy.

http://www.mitchpileggi.net/Deep_Background/resources/forensics/bodies.htm

I watched a programme about decay the other day - a scientist and TV presenter were standing in a field inspecting a dead pig which was extremely bloated and discoloured, and they were saying how the body doesn't smell much yet at this stage. Pigs are larger and and much fattier than normal weight human children, so it's possible that Tia's body wouldn't have been detectable to human noses yet. Also, insects which speed up the decay process would have had limited access to the loft.

Plus the house was shabby, and pets were known to live there - maybe animals, animal poo, general mould, rotting food, and rotting meat could have disguised any smells?

 

[squish]

as horrible as it sounds, her body may not have been in one form....or piece.

No, I saw a photo of the body being removed from the house at night (which, typically, I now can't find) and the outline of the body clearly showed that it was in one piece and still in a normal shape.

 

[Crazy Mama]

Hello Squish

Yes, it is hard for any of us to know how decomposed her body would have been as we also have no idea of storage etc

We shall know it all tomorrow I would imagine, so best go to bed!

 

[LadyL]

I'm so very sad that we lost yet another youngster...It happens too often.

The worst is that it seems to be/allegedly at the hands of "those who loved her". Let's place our collective ire in the right place!!!!!!!!

We tend to be quick to "blame" officials. But blame for what???

Not to be disrespectful, but if the police did not find the body for 1-8 days, does it truly matter?

It is very easy to point fingers at what may have been missed by authorities. None of it brings back a young life. Nor does it help any of us feel better.

I can only hope now for worldly justice.

I do not dispute that analysis needs to happen, to perhaps improve process.

But I also feel that law enforcement personnel are just besides themselves with what transpired....They are mothers, fathers, aunts, uncles, brothers, sisters, nieces, nephews. Doing their best to figure out a monsterous act.

I pray for these persons also, to continue their dedication and good works. And I pray they may find peace of mind for the "horrific" act that they/we have encountered.

God Bless!

I agree. I think it's refreshing that they admitted human error and gave out specific details (date, time etc.) about their searches. If that happened here, we wouldn't know the error even occurred or if we did, we'd never get an explanation, much less an apology. They aren't robots and can't be expected to be IMO. If it's an ongoing issue of sloppiness, that would be a different matter but I haven't heard anyone accuse them of that.

 

[katydid23]

I just don't get the motive. Someone give me some idea what the motive could be. If it was SH alone then it could be sexual, but the Grandmother arrested on suspicion of murder too? Really can't then be a sexual thing can it? Seriously? Give me a motive.

Just speculation, but MAYBE SH had been grooming the child for quite awhile and had been regularly molesting her. And maybe Grandma was looking the other way. Sadly, it does happen that way and too often to imagine.

But maybe Tia spoke up and said NO MORE, I'm going to tell. Then what? Would grandma want that :worms: to be opened?

 

[Pisces Cloud]

Just to say, that I don't think many council homes still have water tanks these days, because I think a lot were replaced with combination boilers. That's if I'm correct in thinking that it was a council owned home.

 

[Luna15]

The water tank would defo have been in the loft/attic. There is always a brick wall between houses, although not unmovable. The police have admitted their error anyway, so it's unlikely to was moved to next door's attic. Water Tank was mentioned in a local store tonight by gossip mongers, but it does make sense.....unless the body was hidden in a Christmas Tree box, covered in plastic branches and not thoroughly checked. Who knows?

that is definately a possibility that I hadn't thought of... a 5/6/7 foot tree box with the plastic branches strategically placed...

as for your need to know a motive.... I really am not being sarcastic here, but try not to delve too far into the mind of a 'machete' carrying, convicted 'crackhead'... you cant fathom the unfathomable...

I personally believe he was 'grooming' Tia; she could have o/d'd on drugs he administered to sedate her in order that he could do his thing....

I hope that dear child has found peace with her Heavenly Father,

 

[katydid23]

I agree. I think it's refreshing that they admitted human error and gave out specific details (date, time etc.) about their searches. If that happened here, we wouldn't know the error even occurred or if we did, we'd never get an explanation, much less an apology. They aren't robots and can't be expected to be IMO. If it's an ongoing issue of sloppiness, that would be a different matter but I haven't heard anyone accuse them of that.

I vaguely remember a similar tragic mistake when LE was searching for a little boy. He had apparently crawled into the trunk of a car on the family's property. LE had already 'cleared' that area and began a much wider search when he was eventually found days later. :rose:

 

[LadyL]

I have two questions for our English friends:

1. when you say 'estate', does that just mean house?

2. the term 'firewall' - I know that seems self-explanatory but is it inside or outside? is it like a brick wall outside where a fence would separate property lines? or is it special fireproofing inside an interior wall?

TIA

 

[BritsKate]

I just don't get the motive. Someone give me some idea what the motive could be. If it was SH alone then it could be sexual, but the Grandmother arrested on suspicion of murder too? Really can't then be a sexual thing can it? Seriously? Give me a motive.

Actually we're seeing a rise in female pedophiles over the past decade or two. Obviously that may or may not be the case. It could be something as simple as viewing Tia as a rival to SH's affections; or becoming enraged at Tia for stroppiness; fear of losing SH; afraid of Tia being able to notify police of ongoing criminal behavior or probably half a dozen other reasons I could come up with.

Motives - especially in child homicides - can never accurately explain a crime anyway. Ironically mothers who murder their children most often do so under the guise of 'altruism'.

Personally I fully believe Gran colluded in a cover up - I need more information before I can ascertain a further role though. It's such an anomaly for an older woman to murder an older female child - but it has happened before too. A filicide case that keeps coming back to me is this one (again a rarity):
Theresa Knorr - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Lacyanna]

I have two questions for our English friends:

1. when you say 'estate', does that just mean house?

2. the term 'firewall' - I know that seems self-explanatory but is it inside or outside? is it like a brick wall outside where a fence would separate property lines? or is it special fireproofing inside an interior wall?

TIA

Hi LadyL,

I moved to England 4 years ago. An estate would be what you might know as a group of condos. These terraced houses are like condos inside ( a full house), but attatched.

Cheers,