UK - US Diplomat's wife leaves UK after killing Harry Dunn, age 19, Northampton, Sept 2019 *suspended sentence*

[gregjrichards]

We have travelled and driven in Europe extensively on the right hand side of the road and it does take extra concentration when we do that. Americans coming here for work ( heavy article states Ann is the DOS employee and Jonathan a DOD employee) have their cars and HHG shipped over. The heavy article said it was her Volvo she was driving so it was not a Diplomatic vehicle AFAIK. At the end of the day it will be pursued, as I do not think Harry's parents will give up, they have stated they will campaign to make sure it cannot happen again.

My worry is that Harry’s parents are going to fight for extradition and a civil lawsuit and end up getting nowhere with years of stress, disappointment and heartache. There is no way I can possibly see extradition happening and I hope the people advising them are being realistic with them about this.

I fought a legal battle for nine years (medical negligence) and it was an absolute nightmare even though it settled in the end. I totally understand the Dunn family’s determination to hold her accountable.

 

[Lilibet]

My worry is that Harry’s parents are going to fight for extradition and a civil lawsuit and end up getting nowhere with years of stress, disappointment and heartache. There is no way I can possibly see extradition happening and I hope the people advising them are being realistic with them about this.

I fought a legal battle for nine years (medical negligence) and it was an absolute nightmare even though it settled in the end. I totally understand the Dunn family’s determination to hold her accountable.

Nine years! I’m glad you persevered. It is a concern that it may well turn into a what you describe. I think for now, having lost their child, it gives their life purpose to have something to fight for in his name. Whatever happens, I hope they will either be satisfied with the outcome or at least with knowing they did their best. Like you, I hope they are getting realistic advice from honorable people...and ongoing grief counseling in the process.

 

[tresir2012]

Nine years! I’m glad you persevered. It is a concern that it may well turn into a what you describe. I think for now, having lost their child, it gives their life purpose to have something to fight for in his name. Whatever happens, I hope they will either be satisfied with the outcome or at least with knowing they did their best. Like you, I hope they are getting realistic advice from honorable people...and ongoing grief counseling in the process.

My worry is that Harry’s parents are going to fight for extradition and a civil lawsuit and end up getting nowhere with years of stress, disappointment and heartache. There is no way I can possibly see extradition happening and I hope the people advising them are being realistic with them about this.

I fought a legal battle for nine years (medical negligence) and it was an absolute nightmare even though it settled in the end. I totally understand the Dunn family’s determination to hold her accountable.

I agree with you both. I think it gives them some purpose and helps them cope. If they have some success, that will help too. I do believe there are some precedents as well that may help.

 

[tresir2012]

I don't know if this has been posted before but it details the cases where extradition has been effected in the past.

UK–US extradition treaty of 2003 - Wikipedia

From the article:

The U.S. embassy in London reports that, as of April 2013, 38 individuals have been extradited from the US to the UK.[20]

From note 20 above-

"Based on the numbers provided to Sir Scott Baker's panel, under this treaty, 130 extradition REQUESTS were submitted from the U.S. to the UK. Of those 130 requests, the UK has refused 10. Of the remaining 120, 77 individuals were extradited from the UK to the U.S.; the other 43 cases remained pending in the UK system, or the individuals returned to the U.S. on their own, or other circumstances made the extradition no longer necessary. During the same time period, the UK submitted 54 extradition REQUESTS to the US, of which none have been refused. Of those 54 requests, 38 resulted in extradition of an individual from the U.S. to the UK. In the remaining 16 cases, the individuals either returned to the UK on their own or other circumstances made extradition from the U.S. to the UK no longer necessary."

So it seems that extradition has not been refused by the US before, since this treaty has been in force since 2003. That is encouraging and it may be worth trying to look at the circumstances of those cases. I notice that in some of the cases the person voluntarily came back also, which is what the Dunns are hoping will happen.

 

[tresir2012]

I have found this link on the actual CPS site. Don't know if it has been posted before but there are links available on the site about extradition.

CPS announces charge following the death of Harry Dunn | The Crown Prosecution Service

From the link.

"CPS announces charge following the death of Harry Dunn
20 December 2019|News, Driving offences

Chief Crown Prosecutor Janine Smith, said: “Following the death of Harry Dunn in Northamptonshire, the Crown Prosecution Service has today authorised Northamptonshire Police to charge Anne Sacoolas with causing death by dangerous driving.

“The Director of Public Prosecutions has met with Harry Dunn’s family to explain the basis of the decision we have made following a thorough review of the evidence available.

“May I remind all concerned that criminal proceedings against Anne Sacoolas are now active and that she has a right to a fair trial. It is extremely important that there should be no reporting, commentary or sharing of information online which could in any way prejudice these proceedings.”

The next steps
Now that the CPS has authorised Northamptonshire Police to charge Anne Sacoolas we have started extradition proceedings.

The Home Office is responsible for considering our request and deciding whether to formally issue this through US diplomatic channels. Our specialist extradition team will be working closely with the UK Central Authority at the Home Office to do this.

More information on extradition proceedings is available in the Legal Guidance section of this website.

Notes to editors

• Janine Smith is Chief Crown Prosecutor for CPS East Midlands
• Anne Sacoolas (28/08/1977) has been charged with causing death by dangerous driving in relation to the death of Harry Dunn outside RAF Croughton on 27 August 2019. Extradition proceedings are now underway
• Our guidance on extradition proceedings can be found here: Extradition | The Crown Prosecution Service
• The review of the evidence was carried out in accordance with the full code test. "

 

[wendybtn]

Are you saying that American citizens kill foreign citizens overseas all the time with their driving because I have never heard of this before in the UK. And we have had a lot of US citizens driving around in their left hand cars here in the UK for more than 60 years relatively safely. Yes there may be minor accidents of course but this is a serious criminal offence, not just a traffic infringement. MOO.

I have heard of it happening to every day Americans and people in other lands done by foreigners, as well. Serious criminal offences and lesser crimes, as well. <modsnip>

 

[tresir2012]

I have heard of it happening to every day Americans and people in other lands done by foreigners, as well. Serious criminal offences and lesser crimes, as well. <modsnip>

<modsnip - referencing an edited post> "But this stuff happens to ordinary American citizens all the time. No one comes back for the trial or punishment" but I posted a link that states in the 10 years (2003-2013) " the UK submitted 54 extradition REQUESTS to the US, of which none have been refused. Of those 54 requests, 38 resulted in extradition of an individual from the U.S. to the UK. In the remaining 16 cases, the individuals either returned to the UK on their own or other circumstances made extradition from the U.S. to the UK no longer necessary". That makes your statement completely wrong that "no one comes back for the trial or the punishment." I would also doubt that all these cases resulted in death either, and 4 per year is hardly "all the time" anyway, so it is very likely we never hear of them.

If you do have any links or examples for your statement, please add them to the thread. Perhaps you are talking about other countries.

 

[gregjrichards]

Home Secretary Priti Patel sends extradition notice to the US for spy's wife over road crash that killed British teen Harry Dunn

Priti Patel sends extradition notice to the US for spy's wife charged with death of Harry Dunn | Daily Mail Online

There is absolutely no chance of this being successful but I hope I’m wrong.

 

[tresir2012]

Well it has been successful in other cases so we'll see. They may bluff and bluster but at the end of the day they may well want to extradite someone from us, as in the past, so it works both ways. I am disappointed that some posters don't seem to want this to succeed. At the end of the day, Harry and his family are victims and AS is a fugitive from justice.

Some latest links

Harry Dunn suspect 'will 100% come back to UK'

Harry Dunn's friends protest outside RAF base

 

[Gardenkeep]

The family has met with Trump in their campaign to bring justice to their son. They apparently received a cool response from the US administration.
UK seeks extradition of US woman over teen's death in crash

 

[tresir2012]

This is a live ITV news video from December. I don't think it has been posted before but the video shows the scene of the crash.

 

[Gardenkeep]

The lack of integrity on the part of Ms Sacoolas is appalling. Meeting with the parents and expressing remorse over the accident, or any modicum of empathy and accountability on her part would have gone a long way in the healing of this heartbroken family. This is my personal opinion. I could not walk away from this sort of thing. Ever.

 

[Laughing]

The lack of integrity on the part of Ms Sacoolas is appalling. Meeting with the parents and expressing remorse over the accident, or any modicum of empathy and accountability on her part would have gone a long way in the healing of this heartbroken family. This is my personal opinion. I could not walk away from this sort of thing. Ever.

Agreed. From the very beginning IMHO we all felt that if she had followed your (our) advice, and remained right there, she would not have been charged or would have merely lost her driving privilege in England.

Vehicular manslaughter happens. Ugly, tragic, but still accidental.

JMHO YMMV

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Agreed. From the very beginning IMHO we all felt that if she had followed your (our) advice, and remained right there, she would not have been charged or would have merely lost her driving privilege in England.

Vehicular manslaughter happens. Ugly, tragic, but still accidental.

JMHO YMMV

Totally agree, she is unlikely to have got a custodial sentence IMO and it would all have been over by now. She made things much worse for herself (morally at the very least) by running away. It probably wouldn't have even made the national news and they could have kept it on the down-low in the US. Now the world knows her name and that she is a heartless coward.

 

[Laughing]

Totally agree, she is unlikely to have got a custodial sentence IMO and it would all have been over by now. She made things much worse for herself (morally at the very least) by running away. It probably wouldn't have even made the national news and they could have kept it on the down-low in the US. Now the world knows her name and that she is a heartless coward.

bbm

that she is a heartless coward in front of her own son IMHO....

I understand that I still have my dear son, and the perp has her own dear son, while Harry Dunn's Mom has a grave to visit.

JMHO YMMV

 

[Cryptic]

There is absolutely no chance of this being successful but I hope I’m wrong.

Though with Trump's or personal intervention in court cases is grounds for concern, I am very confident that this person will be extradited.

- I doubt she had full diplomatic immunity. In recent decades, only very few of the most senior US and foreign diplomatic staff have the full diplomatic immunity.

Instead, nearly all embassy staff, intelligence officers, consular officers, military and trade attaches etc. have "Official Business" status. As DC, LA And NYC police can relate "Official Business" status holders never pay traffic tickets, parking violations, or tolls.

The status may well also give immunity from all misdemeanor type offenses- but not deaths. Thus, she is probably not "treaty exempt" regarding extradition

- Trump will probably be in office for 5 more years. Even if Trump directly forbids or essentially "freezes" her extradition, the next president has no obligation what so ever to continue that policy.

 

[Cryptic]

There is absolutely no chance of this being successful but I hope I’m wrong.

I am very confident that this person will be extradited.

- I doubt she had full diplomatic immunity. In recent decades, only very few of the most senior US and foreign diplomatic staff have full diplomatic immunity.

Instead, nearly all embassy staff, intelligence officers, consular officers, military and trade attaches etc. have "Official Business" status. As DC, LA And NYC police can relate "Official Business" status holders rarely pay traffic tickets, parking violations, or tolls.

The status may well also give immunity from nearly all misdemeanor type offenses- but not deaths. Thus, she is probably not "treaty exempt" regarding extradition.

- Trump has been very supportive of U.S. military personnel accused of wrong doing. She, however, is a civilian.

- Trump will probably be in office for 5 more years. Even if he directly forbids or essentially "freezes" her extradition, the next president has no obligation what so ever to continue that policy.

 

[scapa]

I am very confident that this person will be extradited.

- I doubt she had full diplomatic immunity. In recent decades, only very few of the most senior US and foreign diplomatic staff have full diplomatic immunity.

Instead, nearly all embassy staff, intelligence officers, consular officers, military and trade attaches etc. have "Official Business" status. As DC, LA And NYC police can relate "Official Business" status holders rarely pay traffic tickets, parking violations, or tolls.

The status may well also give immunity from nearly all misdemeanor type offenses- but not deaths. Thus, she is probably not "treaty exempt" regarding extradition.

- Trump has been very supportive of U.S. military personnel accused of wrong doing. She, however, is a civilian.

- Trump will probably be in office for 5 more years. Even if he directly forbids or essentially "freezes" her extradition, the next president has no obligation what so ever to continue that policy.

IIRC, this request must goes through the US Secretary of State. I see absolutely no way that Pompeo agrees to it, legal merits notwithstanding. I think it withers on the vine, unfortunately, especially given the Brexit timetable and trade deals that will need to follow.

Hopefully justice does come for this family, but I don't see it happening soon under this admin and particular set of circumstances -- but, of course, I'd be delighted if it does.

 

[Cryptic]

The family has met with Trump in their campaign to bring justice to their son. They apparently received a cool response from the US administration.

The extent of the "coolness" might depend if she is still a US State Department employee or if she resigned.

I don't think civilian resignations can be refused (resignations by military personnel can be). Thus, if she say, suddenly resigned, she would automatically revert to a private citizen.

Likewise, I don't think private citizens can be automatically extradited back- even if there is a extradition treaty. Rather, the private citizen can request a procedural review of the treaty obligations, her ability to receive a fair trial etc.

Though the review might be perfunctory in the case of the UK, it still takes time.

 

[gregjrichards]

Harry Dunn death: US says extradition request 'highly inappropriate'

“A US State Department spokesperson expressed "deepest sympathies" for the family and said it the country continues "to look for options for moving forward".

However, they maintained that Mrs Sacoolas had immunity at the time of the incident and that extraditing her "would establish an extraordinarily troubling precedent".

https://news.sky.com/story/anne-sac...diplomats-wife-over-harry-dunn-death-11905753

There is no way the current U.S administration is going to extradite Mrs Sacoolas.