Updated Poll: Your opinion--has it changed?

[PortlandMama]

I don't understand how any of this protocol would have prevented Terri from taking Kyron. All she had to do is walk out the door with him.

True. But the moment the teacher sees he is not in school, all hell breaks loose. Not 8 hours later, but within a matter of minutes. Terri would have to be pretty out of it not to know she would get caught in that case, if she had removed him.

 

[PortlandMama]

Exactly. The school could be more aware of which children are where, and they could figure out perhaps a few hours earlier that a child's parent maybe didn't follow protocol in excusing the child for a doctor's appointment, and they could make a call to that parent to ask if this was the case --- but the child is still gone by then.

In a parental abduction, in that case all Terri would have to do is hang with him at the science fair, then walk him straight out a door and when the school called later tell them that she did not leave with him, the appt she referred to was next friday, and where the hell is her son? etc.

I'm sorry, but I really don't follow this. I see a vast difference in outcome in the two scenarios. Are you changing the protocol I described by saying "perhaps" and "later" and "could"? As soon as the teacher finds the child missing, the parents are notified and it escalates into a 911 call. That's an immediate response, and the only truly responsible action to take. There's no perhaps, and no later, and no "could make a call." So that's my first objection. I didn't build a straw man in my post. It's the school's protocol to follow even more than the parent's.

My second objection is that if I thought my children's school "could be more aware of which children [are] where," (BBM) I would promptly withdraw my child. I put my child in their care, and if they feel lackadaisical about their responsibility, then they won't get my kid.

 

[gwenabob]

True. But the moment the teacher sees he is not in school, all hell breaks loose. Not 8 hours later, but within a matter of minutes. Terri would have to be pretty out of it not to get caught in that case, if she had removed him.

Except AFAIK, Kyron was never actually in class for the day. They left before school started. They toured the exhibits before school, then left.

 

[PortlandMama]

Except AFAIK, Kyron was never actually in class for the day. They left before school started. They toured the exhibits before school, then left.

You might want to re-read my post describing the desired protocol. :innocent:

 

[ami]

I'm sorry, but I really don't follow this. I see a vast difference in outcome in the two scenarios. Are you changing the protocol I described by saying "perhaps" and "later" and "could"? As soon as the teacher finds the child missing, the parents are notified and it escalates into a 911 call. That's an immediate response, and the only truly responsible action to take. There's no perhaps, and no later, and no "could make a call." So that's my first objection. I didn't build a straw man in my post. It's the school's protocol to follow even more than the parent's.

My second objection is that if I thought my children's school "could be more aware of which children [are] where," (BBM) I would promptly withdraw my child. I put my child in their care, and if they feel lackadaisical about their responsibility, then they won't get my kid.

I'm sorry you don't follow it. What I am saying is that when the teacher went to take attendance for the day at Skyline, it was 10am. The most that your suggested protocol would have done is to alert the authorities earlier that Kyron was gone - not prevent his abduction.

 

[PortlandMama]

I'm sorry you don't follow it. What I am saying is that when the teacher went to take attendance for the day at Skyline, it was 10am. The most that your suggested protocol would have done is to alert the authorities earlier that Kyron was gone - not prevent his abduction.

Actually, the suggested protocol included taking attendance at the start of the day. It's only a few posts up, it's easy enough to re-read it.

 

[ami]

Actually, the suggested protocol included taking attendance at the start of the day. It's only a few posts up, it's easy enough to re-read it.

Yes, I read that. Still don't see how taking attendance would have prevented Terri from abducting him.

In your proposal of Kyron's school following your own child's school's protocol, the teacher takes attendance at the start of the day and Kyron is there. We already knew that because of the picture and witnesses, but whatever: now it's official. Teacher runs into Kyron and Terri at the science fair and Terri tells her Kyron has a doctor's appointment. Terri and Kyron leave the science fair and exit out a door in the hallway without signing out.

Teacher takes attendance a second time at 10am. Teacher notices Kyron isn't there, and also notices Terri hasn't filled out the required slip. Teacher recalls that Kyron was going to be at the doctor, but rules are rules and so teacher calls the office. "Did Mrs Horman sign Kyron out for the doctor?" Office: "No, she didn't". Office thus notified of protocol violation calls Kyron's emergency contact: Desiree. Or perhaps Terri is listed as well and it makes more sense for Office to call her since they just saw her this morning. Office calls Terri's phone.

Terri either answers (she's been gone over an hour and already handed Kyron off and is prepared to sound surprised, shocked, concerned when the school calls) "What? He's not? No I said NEXT Friday! Oh my god, we must find him!"

Or perhaps she doesn't answer the phone because she's busy doing terrible things, and the office calls Kaine or just proceeds to call 911. "A child was here this morning and the mother said she was taking him to the doctor, but never signed him out, and now she's not answering the phone" LE makes some more calls to Kaine ("I don't know, he could be at the doctor - have you tried Terri?") before believing this might be a valid abduction or runaway, and they begin the real search.

Etc.

Kyron is still gone.

 

[PortlandMama]

Yes, I read that. Still don't see how taking attendance would have prevented Terri from abducting him.

In your proposal of Kyron's school following your own child's school's protocol, the teacher takes attendance at the start of the day and Kyron is there. We already knew that because of the picture and witnesses, but whatever: now it's official. Teacher runs into Kyron and Terri at the science fair and Terri tells her Kyron has a doctor's appointment. Terri and Kyron leave the science fair and exit out a door in the hallway without signing out.

Teacher takes attendance a second time at 10am. Teacher notices Kyron isn't there, and also notices Terri hasn't filled out the required slip. Teacher recalls that Kyron was going to be at the doctor, but rules are rules and so teacher calls the office. "Did Mrs Horman sign Kyron out for the doctor?" Office: "No, she didn't". Office thus notified of protocol violation calls Kyron's emergency contact: Desiree. Or perhaps Terri is listed as well and it makes more sense for Office to call her since they just saw her this morning. Office calls Terri's phone.

Terri either answers (she's been gone over an hour and already handed Kyron off and is prepared to sound surprised, shocked, concerned when the school calls) "What? He's not? No I said NEXT Friday! Oh my god, we must find him!"

Or perhaps she doesn't answer the phone because she's busy doing terrible things, and the office calls Kaine or just proceeds to call 911. "A child was here this morning and the mother said she was taking him to the doctor, but never signed him out, and now she's not answering the phone" LE makes some more calls to Kaine ("I don't know, he could be at the doctor - have you tried Terri?") before believing this might be a valid abduction or runaway, and they begin the real search.

Etc.

Kyron is still gone.

BBM. Again, this is changing the protocol from what I described. No form, no child. No "'I'm going to take him to the doctor's...' 'Oh, OK.'" There would be no secondary attendance taking. Teacher's are responsible for knowing where the children are that are already in attendance AT ALL TIMES. Not just every two hours. If you want to debate some other protocol, fine, but if you're going to debate the one I described, shouldn't we follow it?

 

[Jo in Calif]

I agree. And protocol could have been even tighter than that. At my child's school, once the child is signed in for the day by the teacher (which at Skyline I think should have happened at the usual hour, whether parents were around for a special event or not), even a parent cannot remove the child from the school without filling out a form at the office in duplicate (also showing ID even if the parent is well known to the office staff), leaving one copy in the office and taking the other official copy back to the teacher. No form to hand to the teacher, no child. It's not exactly complicated or time-consuming, and it applies even if you only need to pick up your kid 5 minutes early. In Kyron's case, if this had been the protocol, it would not have made any difference what the teacher assumed happened with a doctor's appointment and Terri. Next steps would HAVE to have been taken to find out where he was. MOO

Kyron was never signed in for the day, even if roll had of been taken at 8:46, Kyron never made it to the class, he still would have been marked absent.
Why would Terri have to sign Kyron out, he never went to class, he was at the science fair, that was held at the school, he was never signed in for the day.
Even if it was the school's policy to call the parents, after roll was taken and the office went through all the attendance slips and made a call to the parents, Terri would have already completed her deed, done an OMG, the ball would have started rolling, earlier. But IMO the outcome would be the same as it is today.
Except, IMO the school would not be blamed by so many people.

 

[Adrienne37]

Portland Mama - does your child attend school at Skyline Elementary?

~JMO~

 

[PortlandMama]

Portland Mama - does your child attend school at Skyline Elementary?

~JMO~

Nope. The name of my children's school is not up for public discussion!

 

[gwenabob]

Actually, the suggested protocol included taking attendance at the start of the day. It's only a few posts up, it's easy enough to re-read it.

Kyron was never in the teacher's possession. She cannot refuse to hand over what she does not have. Kyron was with his mother the entire time he was at Skyline. How could that protocol work? Terri never had to go to the teacher to take possession of Kyron. She had him. She walked out the door with him. Finite.

 

[PortlandMama]

Kyron was never signed in for the day, even if roll had of been taken at 8:46, Kyron never made it to the class, he still would have been marked absent.
Why would Terri have to sign Kyron out, he never went to class, he was at the science fair, that was held at the school, he was never signed in for the day.
Even if it was the school's policy to call the parents, after roll was taken and the office went through all the attendance slips and made a call to the parents, Terri would have already completed her deed, done an OMG, the ball would have started rolling, earlier. But IMO the outcome would be the same as it is today.
Except, IMO the school would not be blamed by so many people.

Children should be checked in as the get on the bus or arrive at the school (parent drop off). Think of it as a chain of custody. Not... drop off, no one knows who's there or not, hang out, then eventually roll call is taken. So in this case, Terri having that conversation with Kyron's teacher when they arrived at school around 8 am would have done double duty as check-in. A set time is only there to determine tardies. Hope that helps!

 

[Adrienne37]

Nope. The name of my children's school is not up for public discussion! .

I don't believe I was asking you the name of the school your child or children attend, I believe I asked if it was Skyline Elementary. Quite frankly, your protocols and proposals or whatever you are calling them have no bearing whatsoever on the events that took place at Skyline Elementary School on 6/4/2010 especially if your child or children do not even attend that school.

~JMO~

 

[PortlandMama]

Kyron was never in the teacher's possession. She cannot refuse to hand over what she does not have. Kyron was with his mother the entire time he was at Skyline. How could that protocol work? Terri never had to go to the teacher to take possession of Kyron. She had him. She walked out the door with him. Finite.

Finite? LOL. No, once the child is in school and checked in, they are the school's responsibility. She can't just walk away with him without violating the school's protocol. Now, she can choose to do that, but then she sets off a chain of events. The teacher "takes possession" (personally, I call it taking responsibility) with check in, which is what happens when the parent shows up at school with the child, or delivers the child to the bus driver.

Now, the parent could stay and walk around with the child to look at the exhibits, but that becomes functionally like a chaperone on a field trip. It's just an in-house field trip. I am responsible for returning the child to the teacher, intact, and am not to leave the designated area with the child without violating protocol and setting into motion that good ol' chain of events.

Lastly, what started out as a quick aside about how we should improve school protocol to better protect our children is turning into quite a discussion, though frankly I'm not sure why! I think if anyone would like to continue the discussion, it should take place on some other thread, no? :waitasec:

 

[Kimster]

No personal questions on the board please.

And get back on topic too.

 

[Kimster]

I don't believe I was asking you the name of the school your child or children attend, I believe I asked if it was Skyline Elementary. Quite frankly, your protocols and proposals or whatever you are calling them have no bearing whatsoever on the events that took place at Skyline Elementary School on 6/4/2010 especially if your child or children do not even attend that school.

~JMO~

Instead of saying this has no bearing, why not ask how the poster came to that conclusion instead?

I'm not trying to pick on one person or another, but telling each other how to post is not going to fly. Let's be respectful. And this isn't the only poster in this forum who had done this to another. It is rampant and it needs to end.

When making a post that is not in agreement with the other poster, refrain from using the word "you" and it will help tremendously.

 

[SmoothOperator]

BBM. Again, this is changing the protocol from what I described. No form, no child. No "'I'm going to take him to the doctor's...' 'Oh, OK.'" There would be no secondary attendance taking. Teacher's are responsible for knowing where the children are that are already in attendance AT ALL TIMES. Not just every two hours. If you want to debate some other protocol, fine, but if you're going to debate the one I described, shouldn't we follow it?

The protocol was followed AT SKYLINE ON JUNE 4, 2010..and the protocol is standard for majority of schools{tho, after what Terri has pulled I know just as Skyline has schools will be changing protocol}..But the prorocol that Terri abused is standard...

Terri and Kyron went prior to the school day beginning to tour thru the projects, take pix of his, etc. Because Terri told Porter that Kyron and baby k would be going to a dr. appt and Kyron was not present at roll call, therefor marked as absent[again because Terri told Porter she was taking Kyron to dr]therefor there would have been no school hours involved that Kyron was present during therefor there would be no procedure for "checking him out"..

This exact scenario occurred with myself and my son involved. He had a history project that was on display[a class project worked on all the class, then was displayed for any parents and other students of the school could come :and view the display in the 45 mins leading up to the first bell rung to start the school day[school starts at 7:45 and students and parents were allowed from 7:00am{when school doors opened}-7:45 when first bell rang signaling the official start of the school day]

We had our annual "Walt Disney Trip" planned for this week and were actually flying out at 10:00am. So, we were at the school at 7:00am when doors opened and parents/students allowed to go view the project and my son and both left the school together at the time that the official school day was beginning[7:45]. Therefor I did not have to do the procedure of going to the school office and "checking my son" out because he was not present for roll call,counted as absent, and therefor there was nothing to "check him out from"[whereas if he had been present in his class, marked present and then left the school that procedure of "checking out" of course would be mandantory in that case]..
I was explained this by the administrative office as it was a new school for us last year and I stopped by on our way out just to make sure that there was no procedure or policy that I was unaware of..

That is from a personal experience that is giving an actual account of the same circumstances[as far as check out procedure not an option when the child is never technically present].

I have one other bit of info that is backing up what to many is a "no-brainer" of why this procedure would NOT BE DONE under the circumstances explained above..

My mom has taught elementary school for 31 years[highly admired and an entire career of awards nationwide for her contributions, dedication to children, asas well as known for being one of the last of a dying breed- a teacher whose life is totally and completely dedicated to her huge responsibility of teaching the children whom are our futures... And for the past 5 years to the present she is serving on the School Board of Education as a highly respected enforcer of the school policies[the policies that are in place to protect or children, the students of the schools in the entire district[largest county in our state]..

I say all of the above for the reason that if anyone would be qualified to give an answer or highly educated and informed opinion[however you choose to see it]....
less than 24 hours ago I had this exact subject as a conversation with her and we spoke about this specific aspect of would it be a procedure that would be followed[checking out of the child from the school office if the child and parent were present prior to the official school day and the student was not present in his/her classroom for rollcall therefor being marked as absent]
Her reply to my questioning of this was.. "Obviously the answer is no. You would NOT check a child out from a "school day" when a child was never marked as having been present. There would be no "present" attendance record for the child for the school day in question therefor there would be no procedure to "check out" the child from being present for the school days attendance record for that day." ..

And just to add one quick tidbit to the above. Not only would there be no "present" attendance record to check the child out from but to go a step further for any who may question that he was seen around the school nearing the official start to the school day so shouldn't someone have thought thst suspicious and made sure to check out why he was not present after having been seen there during the times the projects were looked[again which was pre-officfial school hours] and the answere is no you would not question it when the parent/guardian had told you just minutes before rollcall that she would be taking that child to a dr. appt.

 

[stmarysmead]

Finite? LOL. No, once the child is in school and checked in, they are the school's responsibility. She can't just walk away with him without violating the school's protocol. Now, she can choose to do that, but then she sets off a chain of events. The teacher "takes possession" (personally, I call it taking responsibility) with check in, which is what happens when the parent shows up at school with the child, or delivers the child to the bus driver.

Now, the parent could stay and walk around with the child to look at the exhibits, but that becomes functionally like a chaperone on a field trip. It's just an in-house field trip. I am responsible for returning the child to the teacher, intact, and am not to leave the designated area with the child without violating protocol and setting into motion that good ol' chain of events.

Lastly, what started out as a quick aside about how we should improve school protocol to better protect our children is turning into quite a discussion, though frankly I'm not sure why! I think if anyone would like to continue the discussion, it should take place on some other thread, no? :waitasec:

Were the children required to be at the school at a certain specified time that special morning..when they would be checked in..BEFORE touring with their parents? Or were the children allowed to arrive at different times because it was a special day...therefore no official "check-in" took place till 10AM?

I ask this because how could any teacher be responsible for a child NOT required to be in class until 10AM? How could she possibly know who was in the building...and when? Or if some parent had decided not to let the child stay? Those children did not become her responsibility until roll was taken...whenever that was.

Let's say a parent drove to school that morning..toured a bit and the child threw up. If no roll call had been taken...couldn't both Mom and teacher assume since the child was not "officially" in attendance yet...Mom could just take the child home? Because the protocol meant the child was the teacher's responsibility AFTER roll call, when attendance was officially taken. Not merely by setting foot on school property.

The child was NOT the school's responsibility just by appearing on the grounds...anymore than walking into a hospital makers you a patient.

So...did Terri bring Kyron to some official check-in...was attendance taken before she left..or not?

 

[gardeness]

IMO, school started at it's regular time and there was some form of attendance taken when the last morning bell rang. That's me giving Skyline the benefit of the doubt, of course. I just can't see parents sending their children on their regularly scheduled bus rides to a school that won't be in session for an hour and a half. MOO