Found Deceased UT - MacKenzie "Kenzie" Lueck, 23, Salt Lake City, 17 June 2019 #4

[poppydarling]

Would Paige Birgfeld, a Colorado soccer mom who had something on the side, be considered a sugar? She was murdered by a client. No one took a cut of her income.

I’d have to know more about the language and terminology that relationship had to determine that.

 

[MassGuy]

I said this earlier, but I think everyone is getting hung up on Kenzie’s facial expressions and body language, which was taken from many minutes of surveillance footage.

This is a snapshot in time, where the video is unlikely to match up with what the still picture is conveying.

Someone could freeze-frame images of her looking happy, sad, scared, excited, depressed; whatever.

None of these would necessarily be genuine depictions of her what she was feeling at the time.

In fact, they almost certainly are not representative of what they appear to reflect.

 

[ksmith3271]

Point taken. It depends I guess on how many relationships ML handles at one time.
(No judgment intended. I have daughters; and my heart goes out to her; she was handling a lot.)

Is she comfortable with juggling family calls, work calls, sorority friend calls, and 'gentleman' calls, all on one phone?
For me, that would be too much multi tasking on one device.
I would probably keep a burner phone for my side job.... but that's just me.

I understand. We’re all different. I guess, to me, carrying two phones would almost create more questions— everyone would ask “why do you have two phones?” How would you respond? LOL Even tho ML appeared to be open, I can’t imagine inviting those type of questions.

 

[Sunny123]

Yes, but I just cant shake the thought that if someone had ill intentions from the start, they would have parked completely out of sight of the LYFT driver. Imagine your going to commit a crime, you don't want anyone to know you were in the area you don't let yourself or your car be seen at all. Of course at this point nothing is ruled out and everything is on the table.

Are the roads remote in the area, and is it possible that there could have been a serious car accident, leaving both of them gravely injured? Although, I suppose there would be another missing person report. MOO

 

[shanadk]

I may be grasping but...
Regarding burner phones...
There could also be one of these men, someone she sees regularly, who bought her a burner phone to use exclusively for their communications with each other.

 

[SuziQ]

Okay just speculation...what if

the Lyft driver that she requested had an accomplice who had the same car as him (disguised to be his car). Say ML got into that car, the actual Lyft driver drove to "her destination" without her in the car while the other fake Lyft driver took ML to some other location. Pretty far fetched...but possible?

Far fetched and highly unlikely. Occams razor is usually a win.

Speculation is good. But speculation on facts is better.

 

[gitana1]

I know there is a lot of chatter about SB/SD/the sugar lifestyle. I wanted to clear up a few things as it is becoming more relevant to the case potentially.


First, a sugar lifestyle is NOT considered to be the same as sex work. Calling Kenzie, or any sugar baby, a sex worker is a misnomer and very problematic. There is a difference in terms of consent and agreed upon exchange. Calling anyone in the sugar lifestyle a “hooker,” “prostitute,” “escort,” or any term related to these is not appropriate. A sugar baby and the sugar lifestyle should really be considered a consensual exchange relationship.


An exchange relationship is pretty similar to a traditional relationship, but with a few understood and agreed upon exchanges. Typically for sugar babies this means engaging in consensual relationships with older men (or women but typically men). This does NOT always include sexual intercourse. It can include companionship, friendship, support, and/or accompanied with sexual behaviors. Just to be clear: sex is commonly NOT the driving force of these relationship (statistics put this at over 70% non sexual at statistical significance).


*If* we are going to discuss Kenzie and her participation in the sugar lifestyle, it should be done so as it if were her having a relationship with an older man. Nothing else. She is an adult. She entered relationships with consent and awareness. Nothing to this point indicates ANY sex work or even sexual deviance. She appears to have exchange based relationships. Which frankly many of us have to some degree. Any shaming or name calling, including calling her names of other sex working positions, should not be tolerated as there is ZERO evidence of Kenzie participating in any of that.


Sex workers often have someone that is their boss (slang we say pimp) that they report to and takes a cut of their income. Income often exchanged via sexual relations ONLY with no regard for emotional support or consideration. Sugar babies do not have this same structure. They do not work for anyone. They engage in this lifestyle for their own personal choice and walk away with their own exchanges without the need to cut anyone in. There is often emotional consideration and personal autonomy is retained. In Kenzie’s case, this is clearly demonstrated in her posted from twelve weeks ago. The emotional consideration was highly important to her and indicates she was not working with any boss/handler/pimp. This alone indicates she is not, and has not to our knowledge, been engaged in sex work.


I am happy to answer any questions about this lifestyle/relationship status/possible mentality but I will only do so if approached respectably for both Kenzie and the lifestyle.

Thank you for coming here and educating us.

 

[poppydarling]

I am as well. I would have to think psychologically speaking this is damaging.

@poppydarling question for you. In this lifestyle I imagine there are some types of relationships that are no sex, some are sex, and some are fettish sex. Do you have an estimation of percentages of each category?

Actually this is a current study I am doing! I don’t have solid answers for that, only preliminary results with a small (approximately 1,000) sample. It appears to be 48% no sex, 34% some sex (ranging from intimate touching to intercourse), and 17% fetish related (with 1% missing data). This is unpeer reviewed and unpublished work though.

 

[Herat]

That’s a great question and I’m afraid one I don’t have the answer to. But I will do some searching and see if I can find one for you. This area of study is relatively new (last six-eight years or so). I can only antidotally speak to this.....a few months and usually the man. But again that’s with a grain of salt because I don’t have verification/empirical support on that.

So that seems like it sets younger women up for rejection, just when they’ve made the emotional investment in the relationship

 

[BelleIsle]

BTW, anyone can find the photo I'm talking about that has the #imdeadinside hashtag. Just google the hashtag with her pvt IG user name and click on the cached version of the sites that come up. Then search for her user name on the page you clicked on.

This is concerning if I am viewing it as being completely without any sarcasm attached. However, as is one of the failings of social media, we cannot read the inflection and intention behind the words. It is very frustrating. She could have been joking with a friend, referencing something that we have no idea about. Or, it could be a cry for help. There's no way to tell.

 

[EmilyVan]

I said this earlier, but I think everyone is getting hung up on Kenzie’s facial expressions and body language, which was taken from many minutes of surveillance footage.

This is a snapshot in time, where the video is unlikely to match up with what the still picture is conveying.

Someone could freeze-frame images of her looking happy, sad, scared, excited, depressed; whatever.

None of these would necessarily be genuine depictions of her what she was feeling at the time.

In fact, they almost certainly are not representative of what they appear to reflect.

she could have literally been in the middle of a sneeze. (that's what it looks like to me anyway)

MOO

 

[charminglane]

I wonder if KL owns an Apple Watch?
I have noticed many medical personnel wear them.

 

[klind55]

I said this earlier, but I think everyone is getting hung up on Kenzie’s facial expressions and body language, which was taken from many minutes of surveillance footage.

This is a snapshot in time, where the video is unlikely to match up with what the still picture is conveying.

Someone could freeze-frame images of her looking happy, sad, scared, excited, depressed; whatever.

None of these would necessarily be genuine depictions of her what she was feeling at the time.

In fact, they almost certainly are not representative of what they appear to reflect.

And I wonder why we are only being shown still shots and not the video. When Kelsey Berreth went missing they were showing actual video of her at the grocery store almost immediately.

 

[MassGuy]

And I wonder why we are only being shown still shots and not the video. When Kelsey Berreth went missing they were showing actual video of her at the grocery store almost immediately.

I think they’re still walking the fine line between privacy and disclosure.

Those images show what she looks like, and what she was wearing that night.

I think that was the point.

 

[EmilyVan]

So that seems like it sets younger women up for rejection, just when they’ve made the emotional investment in the relationship

I don't think they make a full emotional investment into the relationship. That's the whole point. JMO

 

[poppydarling]

Here are other opinions on sugar dating:

Abigail (2014), and Motz (2014) argue that Sugar Dating is a euphemism for prostitution. Motyl (2013) argues that it’s a combination of prostitution and dating. All authors show that sugar dating involves poorer women (or men) seeking financial assistance in exchange for sex aka “companionship”.

Abigail, J. (2014). Who’s your sugar daddy? Newsweek Global, 163,(14), 60-63.
'Daddies Date Babies' Asks: Who's Your Sugar Daddy?

Motyl, J. (2013). Trading sex for college tuition: How sugar daddy “dating” sites may be sugarcoating prostitution. Penn State Law Review, 117(3), 927-957.
http://www.pennstatelawreview.org/117/3/Motyl final.pdf

Motz, T. (2014). Sugar daddy website has coeds justifying prostitution. New York Post, (2014, November 15)
https://nypost.com/2014/02/09/sugar-daddy-website-has-coeds-rationalizing-prostitution/

Of course there are alternative findings and sides to all stories. These are semi-valid sources- however it is important to remember that peer reviewed empirical test are different than media outlet agenda sources. Additionally funding sources tend to bias results and findings. But I do appreciate and encourage research so yes, noted that not 100% of researchers have the same outlook but I’d say there’s an agreed upon definition from 80% of us.

 

[otto]

The problem with this is we are discussing it without the benefit of also discussing the corresponding photos, info and hashtags on her pvt account.

I've seen some of the cached info on her account and I'm not sure your premises are 100% accurate.

Context would help.

Robyn Gardner disappeared on Aruba and her older, wealthy boyfriend had an insurance policy on her life for the weekend of travel. Was that a sugar?

 

[Herat]

I don't think they make a full emotional investment into the relationship. That's the whole point. JMO

But there is SOME emotional investment in a man who is unavailable to them in life, and then stops the relationship, likely moving on to another young woman

 

[MsBetsy]

Going to alert this in case mods want to remove, but you don't find the hashtag #imdeadinside concerning?

Maybe it's in reference to the song by Muse. It could mean anything.

 

[Gardenista]

This is concerning if I am viewing it as being completely without any sarcasm attached. However, as is one of the failings of social media, we cannot read the inflection and intention behind the words. It is very frustrating. She could have been joking with a friend, referencing something that we have no idea about. Or, it could be a cry for help. There's way to tell.

I know. I've looked at the photo a zillion times trying to get into her head. And her comment about her black heart and soul just kept bringing me back to having grave concern for her.

 

[otto]

Of course there are alternative findings and sides to all stories. These are semi-valid sources- however it is important to remember that peer reviewed empirical test are different than media outlet agenda sources. Additionally funding sources tend to bias results and findings. But I do appreciate and encourage research so yes, noted that not 100% of researchers have the same outlook but I’d say there’s an agreed upon definition from 80% of us.

If funded research is tainted (bias), and unfunded research is less valid (peer review), what research should be trusted?