UT -Susan Powell, 28, West Valley City, 6 Dec 2009 - #5

[DuchessJules22]

Patty G. what have you heard?

 

[DuchessJules22]

Sorry folks, it looks like it isn't Susan after all...

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705357087/Recovered-body-identified.html

 

[kiki the parrot]

Wooooooo... Amen kiki!!!! I totally agree with you.

Being a Christian doesn't mean you are a door mat or stand beside evil. If someone was molesting your daughter and they went to church with you, could you just forgive them and help them out if they wanted you to help them move? No way.

AGREE! And regardless of whether or not there had been an actual conviction, or even an arrest as of yet, if that person was acting under no authority, or refusing to cooperate w an investigation, they're not entitled to the benefit and favor of friends OR the church. I will take it one step farther: it is incumbent upon the church to act as a moral authority and hold Mr. Powell accountable--and their express duty (and by extension that of it's members) to admonish his lack of cooperation --even to impose consequences w/in the limits of their authority.

arrot:

 

[indicat]

AGREE! And regardless of whether or not there had been an actual conviction, or even an arrest as of yet, if that person was acting under no authority, or refusing to cooperate w an investigation, they're not entitled to the benefit and favor of friends OR the church. I will take it one step farther: it is incumbent upon the church to act as a moral authority and hold Mr. Powell accountable--and their express duty (and by extension that of it's members) to admonish his lack of cooperation --even to impose consequences w/in the limits of their authority.

arrot:

I think the line gets blurry between forgiving and being helpful and turning the other cheek and judging. I think everything you have stated makes absolute sense. I remember reading a post a while back asking if we go to confesion like the Catholics do, or if we have that kind of system. While we do not do it in the same way, yes, we have confession. When the sin is grave we go to our Bishop, the leader of our ward and confess. While I highly doubt Mr. Powell has done this we believe in accountablility and he would certainly be persuaded to this end. I have a hard time believing that Kiirsi is really doing this for anything other then staying as close as she can and trying to gather any info. that she can. I do know that if Josh had those kids and no family helping him the church would be more likely to step in and help for the sake of the kids but he has family (dad and brother) willing to help and is taking over their care.
It might be interesting to note, while there are certainly certain protocals within the church we believe strongly in free agency and we are not ran like a bunch of machines, many things these ward members are doing are because of their personal feelings of what they should do, not because they are just directed to do it by "the church", I find that is actually rarley the case.

 

[kiki the parrot]

True, but when you have no heart then the head makes such bad careless decisions, especially concerning other people and their feelings or welfare. TG, we have LE and jails for these people who make such selfish decisions.

I'd like to know more about Josh from other people in his life, the ones who haven't opened up yet. I'd really like to read the notes Susan wrote about Josh's threats, etc., Yes, his sister seems to have feelings, so maybe she is the lone sheep of the family. Despite everyone trying to act still friendly and not point the finger at him, I do think now he is scared, very scared. Waiting for the testing results is hard on poor Joshy.

It won't be long now. Let him pack up his life, maybe he'll pause for a moment to reflect on what he had with Susan. (doubt it tho') Things are changing for Josh big time. Hope I see him move to the "big house" next.

(bbm) I'm not gonna hold my breath for that!

arrot:

 

[kiki the parrot]

I think the line gets blurry between forgiving and being helpful and turning the other cheek and judging. I think everything you have stated makes absolute sense. I remember reading a post a while back asking if we go to confesion like the Catholics do, or if we have that kind of system. While we do not do it in the same way, yes, we have confession. When the sin is grave we go to our Bishop, the leader of our ward and confess. While I highly doubt Mr. Powell has done this we believe in accountablility and he would certainly be persuaded to this end. I have a hard time believing that Kiirsi is really doing this for anything other then staying as close as she can and trying to gather any info. that she can. I do know that if Josh had those kids and no family helping him the church would be more likely to step in and help for the sake of the kids but he has family (dad and brother) willing to help and is taking over their care.

(snip, bbm) Agree w bolded! JMHO

arrot:

 

[Fairy1]

IMO - Josh is not going to confess to anyone. He clearly was not an active member of the church and he is now under the guidance of his father. IMO, LE is going to have to find the evidence to bring him in. I sincerely hope they are working on that!

 

[indicat]

IMO - Josh is not going to confess to anyone. He clearly was not an active member of the church and he is now under the guidance of his father. IMO, LE is going to have to find the evidence to bring him in. I sincerely hope they are working on that!

I totally agree. His sister and her husband are on local news right now, they seem very genuine and say Josh should be staying here and Jennifer is saying how much she misses Susan.

And wow, the news saying they are asking anyone from their ward to come help them move, that could get interesting.

ETA: "they are asking anyone from their ward to come help them move" does not mean the church, the news caster just said that.

 

[JennaLee]

Snipped for space, bolded by me:

I'm sorry to see so much Kiirsi-bashing on this thread.

You're not the only one!

 

[Fairy1]

I really don't think anyone is "bashing" Kiirsi. IMO - most of us here - strangers to Susan and Josh - can barely stand to see Josh's face on video, let alone in person. It's difficult to understand how good friends of Susan's could bear to see Josh in person as he's packing up the house in which he most likely murdered her.

It's one thing to lend your time and support to a grieving spouse -but something altogether different to be friendly to someone you KNOW murdered your friend. It's difficult for many of us to understand. IMHO.

 

[Bartleby]

No harm in praying and visiting, but let's work w LE in getting the person responsible into custody--beginning w urging full cooperation by all parties w LE and requiring some standard of conduct. What became of Susan in all of this--does she, or her anguished, despairing parents--other family, faithful members in the church, desperate for answers--deserve any of this "wider family" loyalty or devotion? Whether or not JP is ultimately proven guilty, the fact remains that according to LE, he has heretofore not been forthcoming nor cooperative in the investigation into his wife's disappearance under extremely suspicious circumstances. IMO assisting someone in JP's position to flee his obligations--including legal (his duty as a POI w whom LE's requested further interviews), moral (as just a fellow human being), ethical (or civic, as a concerned citizen of that community at large), spiritual (as a brother in Christ and fellow believer), marital (as a husband to assist in finding his wife), and familial (as a father to help find the mother of his children; and son-in-law, in aiding to find the Coxes' daughter) --to avoid consequences for his behavior is nothing short of enablement, at best... and what I consider to be encouraging the unruly, and admonishing the truly weak. And that's not bashing--it's the truth.

Hi Kiki,

He's fleeing whether or not anyone other than his family help him pack up the house, as has been said before. The presence of anyone other than his immediate family can only speed the packing process a little, but also they want to preserve Susan's belongings and I think that's why they are there.

I'm not LDS, and I don't believe this guy deserves forgiving, but my point is that Kiirsi and her family and her ward do, and I don't judge them by my standards. All Kiirsi wants is her friend back alive, and in this I think she'll be disappointed. Kiirsi is working with LE to find out the truth, and if they didn't want people to help the Powells clear house then it wouldn't be happening.

I am judgemental, and I think this douchebag is guilty, and ot-nay oo-tay ight-bray either. I also believe the LE are totally on top of the case, and he will end up with a long stretch in jail, or the death penalty if that is Utah Law, and running off to Washington isn't going to save him from justice.

 

[JennaLee]

Fairy, very well worded post!

I agree that it is difficult for many to understand. However we all have different personalities and I definitely can see myself doing many of the same things Kiirsi is doing, while others may think it's very odd. I'm personally one for keeping my friends close but my enemies closer. However I don't think ANY of us can know for sure how we'd act unless the same situation happened to us. Heck, I might surprise myself and act entirely differently than I think I would. I hope I never have to find out!

 

[diphi]

Hi Kiki,

I am judgemental, and I think this douchebag is guilty, and ot-nay oo-tay ight-bray either. I also believe the LE are totally on top of the case, and he will end up with a long stretch in jail, or the death penalty if that is Utah Law, and running off to Washington isn't going to save him from justice.

Respectfully snipped for space

OT - It's been years since I heard anyone speak, much less spell, Pig Latin. It's my second language. Thanks for the smile, Bartleby.

 

[Schmerty_Jones]

I hope & pray every conscious minute of the day that God will protect these two innocent little boys from the wrath that their mother has suffered! I don't think 10 mins passes before I talk to God & hope & pray God will protect them. Why? OH why did Susan have to cross parts with this 'demon'? I hope he doesn't kill them.

 

[Gin]

Fairy, very well worded post!

I agree that it is difficult for many to understand. However we all have different personalities and I definitely can see myself doing many of the same things Kiirsi is doing, while others may think it's very odd. I'm personally one for keeping my friends close but my enemies closer. However I don't think ANY of us can know for sure how we'd act unless the same situation happened to us. Heck, I might surprise myself and act entirely differently than I think I would. I hope I never have to find out!

I think the main thing is that there needs to be tolerance and space for both ways of thinking. Some might choose to help with the move, others might choose to keep some distance. Neither option is necessarily better or more religious or more ethical. Folks need to decide for themselves. This forum is a great place to express opinions, share ideas, suggestions and questions. Chances are good that we will occasionally have a difference of opinion. And in my opinion, disagreeing isn't in any way "bashing". It's just seeing things differently. That's OK.

 

[Dwight]

(excerpted)
Sounds fair enough, right? But I know from experience that when dealing with a pathology severe enough, when put to this test this person will feel 'backed into a corner' and it could have deadly consequences.

It is tragically, ironically because of Susan's forgiving heart, and strong faith (ie hope that God's grace through her could genuinely inspire her husband to become the man he had feigned to be, and the true leader of their family) that she gave her husband every possible opportunity to change. I know the courage it must have taken to set those final boundaries or requirements. A woman of strong faith does not take those vows lightly and this was also the father of her children. But you have to know just how much deprivation your heart can take... and recognize when it's God's will and Him eg working on a person's heart--and when it is you, ensnared in a hopeless mission.

I'm sure Susan had reached that point of knowing she'd done everything she could--and more. Maybe he'd have snapped regardless of when she left. But if only she'd been able to cut her losses early on before it was too late. Might sound harsh to some (if you've never been deluded into thinking you could "heal" someone's heart in your own strength) but we aren't doing God, nor our children, any favors by staying and allowing our lives to be destroyed--and an abusive man in the home will, w enough time, rather than helping as the leader of his home to bear God's image (protector, provider, comforter) for his wife and children begins tarnishing and eventually succeeds only in destroying that image. The sad reality is it isn't even truthfully "loving" to continue enabling a damaged person either--all at tremendous cost creating a climate of fear, perpetuating a cycle of confusion and disappointment for everyone else involved.

It comes as no surprise to me that Susan wrote of being in fear.

arrot:

I could not agree more. It was a long time ago but one of my sisters' had a first husband that she had married while quite young, and I don't think she looked very deeply into his background b4 she married him..she tried for many years to make it all work, just like SP..but it got to the point to where while she was out working she found out that he had locked their two young boys - probably similar ages to SP's boys - in a bedroom while he went out in search of drugs (which he had admitted to us that he had started using at age 11.) She bided her time and money, and finally managed to get away - but she had to just get on a greyhound bus with the boys and leave everything else behind forever. This happened over 25 yrs ago. Just recently (over Christmas 2009 actually) she told me that she had been VERY fearful of the consequences if he had caught her in the act of leaving.

Who knows - Susan may have actually started packing to leave, and he became enraged and strangled her while the boys slept. Carry her to the van, stuff her in the cargo area in the far back, cover her in blankets, go wake the boys, we're going camping boys! Turn up the heat in the car, drive until the boys were sound asleep again (nowhere near the campgrounds), pull off, turn off the motor and lights, sit for a bit. Ease outside w/o waking the boys. Ease Susan's body out the back, push it under some brush. Later come back with the rental car and bury Susan.

I think Susan probably underestimated Josh's capacity for becoming homicidal.

 

[OK5]

Are you concerned at all that perhaps Josh or his immediate family may be reading the posts on the Internet concerning the intentions of those that may help Josh pack up the house?

At this point, I can only hope that none of them are.

 

[Dwight]

If LE is encouraging her to be around him they are playing a dangerous game. They know he snapped once.

They (LE) don't KNOW anything yet, otherwise an arrest warrant would be executed already. But even if they strongly suspect that he snapped and killed his wife in a "crime of passion", that doesn't mean he's become a serial thrill killer. There is a big difference in terms of endangerment to the community between the two types of homicide cases.

Bear in mind that unless LE can prove premeditation, he won't even be charged with first degree murder. A murder which is a "crime of passion" (of the moment) is 2nd degree, from what I recall. If he played his cards right, he could take a guilty plea bargain (which would include leading LE to the body), serve his time and be back out in free society after 10 or so years.

 

[Dwight]

Just making it clear that I know Josh hasn't been charged with anything. It's my opinion that he is under some degree of stress. This might not be the time to engage in any sort of disagreement with him. Possibly the safest thing would be to just mentally note what happens to items, and then grab a pad of paper and write it down when returning home.
I also wonder if some friends get (or think they got) verbal permission to "take" things if down the road it would be his word against theirs. On the other hand, it may be that he welcomes the help, and all goes well with the move. Who knows?

You are making a very good point that I touched on earlier - when a person has not been charged with anything, and is moving freely around town under the nose of LE, lets face it, there is an aura of "don't look at me, if I was guilty I would be in custody already." Also bear in mind that even after someone is arrested the law has to see them as innocent (or at the least not guilty) until proven guilty. So there is this big pretense of being innocent that people around Josh and even close to him really have no choice but to abide by. We do have Habeas Corpus (is a legal action, or writ, through which a person can seek relief from their unlawful detention or that of another person. - see wikipedia). Imagine how much worse it would be if Josh was arrested and then the court determined that there was not enough evidence to hold him - and then ordered him released. I'm not saying any of this in defense of JP, but in defense of the the actions/attitudes of those friends and family that have been close to JP and SP.

 

[Patty G]

I was just looking at Patty's You Tube posting when a red box came up and said "A body has been found in West Wendover UT wrapped in plastic and duct tape..."

As the story unfolded, word has it that it was that of a "Latino Male." A thread was started when the information first came out.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93722"]Body Found Near Utah/Nevada Border 01-07-2010 NOT SUSAN - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]