UT -Susan Powell, 28, West Valley City, 6 Dec 2009 - #5

[indicat]

I am a Mormon (yes I live in Utah LOL), and regarding the discussion about ward members helping Josh move, here is my take on it. If it were my family in their ward and he'd asked for help, I think my husband/myself would probably refuse to go over unless Josh had been a personal friend. In that case, I would think one or both of us MIGHT go, but only out of curiosity or to see if Josh would slip, or to see what he was doing with Susan's things. In general I think the ward members are just trying to perform an act of service and trying not to be judgemental, since Josh has not been arrested. BUT, that being said, I'm pretty sure they were also hoping to see how he was acting and hoping for any insights.

About the Coke thing, it's funny how many interpretations there are out there by people who are curious. There is nothing in church doctrine about cola. Personally I love the stuff, both diet and regular.

Also, about the article that mentioned the article that says most Mormons tend to just believe other Mormons...I disagree. I haven't read that article, but EVERYONE I know (and I know a lot of Mormons...LOL) thinks Josh is guilty as sin and wants him to be arrested PRONTO. Everyone I've talked to thinks he has got to be the perp here and thinks he's also got to be a complete jerk, weasel, snake, and so many other things. When an LDS member does something terrible (as people will no matter what church they go to) I think other LDS people (at least the ones I know) tend to be MORE critical, because we know what they claim to believe, and we know that they know better.

I wish the police had taken that Shopvac too! I want this piece of dirt arrested, tried, and PUNISHED TO THE FULLEST EXTENT OF THE LAW.

Though I don't believe religion has anything to do with this case (unless Josh's dad's "literature" and attitude fueled Josh's anger toward Susan, though it was probably more about control than anything else), I thought I'd offer a local LDS perspective on this. I think about Susan constantly. I hope the police have a break TODAY.

I wish that I could articulate things this well! I'm so amazed (and I don't really know why) how there are STILL so many misconceptions out there about us. I love it when somone can explain things in understandable terms, too many thoughts run through my head to get it down right! Thank you!

ETA; I would also like to add that we can be the most HARSH against each other in terms of judgement too, that's the other extreme.

 

[AlexisFresca]

Anyone else find it odd his dad is worried about the 'villification' spreading to the entire family, and not just Josh?

snippet from article (http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_14037897) :
"The whole thing has just turned into a vilification of Josh and it will turn into a vilification of me, my ex-wife and my other kids," said Steven Powell, who spoke to The Salt Lake Tribune briefly through the partially open front door of his home Sunday.
Steven Powell asked The Salt Lake Tribune to not publish his comments after he spoke to reporters. Powell said his house and the subdivision around it are private property and said he worries if media discover where he lives, they will "camp out" near his house.

He told Tribune reporters to "please just go and please do not come back." Asked whether he wants a chance to speak on behalf of Joshua Powell and explain the reasons why he thinks his son has been unfairly vilified, Steven Powell said, "I don't need to explain anything. There is nothing to explain."



and this snippet, things that make you go, 'hmmm..?'
On Friday, the Coxes told The Salt Lake Tribune that Steven Powell isn't actively helping in the search for their daughter. The Coxes said they've had "issues" with Steven Powell in the past and aren't comfortable being around him.

So that is probly where some people got the impression that Susan's kids won't get to see her parents much longer, if they even still do, for that matter.

 

[AlexisFresca]

Yep. Actually JP is known to be pretty OCD. Mr. Obsessing Over Germs on Bare Feet kinda gave himself away a little eh?

arrot:

Where did this happen? Looks like I missed something.

 

[lemonmoussetart]

Where did this happen? Looks like I missed something.

Fresca this was either in thread #4, or early thread #5

 

[kiki the parrot]

I understand armchair sleuthing, digging for info, bouncing ideas off one another, reporting any available info or valuable leads to LE, etc. But I also really don't get why people are actually entertaining or professing to be conducting their own undercover "sting operation," and particularly when a "personal friendship" is involved.

If one was any friend at all, why employ deceit and trickery and pretend one is "helping" yet then turn around and say one is really there to "gather information" or do LE's job... I have a problem w this on several levels.
:waitasec:
A person of integrity is IMO essentially the same person w all people at all times in all situations. Why pretend to be a "friend" or "helping" Josh... then come online eg and talk about him behind his back. I'm really not that curious. Honestly, I'd rather have an investigation conducted properly which can ensure evidence against JP can be used in a court of law and bring sure justice. It's unnecessary (and some would say disingenuous, or two-faced but back to my point) and not likely to be helpful. It's interfering IMO w what should be LE's job--which is not wise either. If LE wants to enlist the cooperation of or take someone into THEIR confidence, that's another thing. But Josh isn't going to confide he killed his wife to anyone while loading up his van--and to think one's going to catch him in a significant slip-up or outdo LE is maybe thinking a tad too highly of ourselves...

Far better to use what influence one has--as a friend, fellow church member, or w/e--to remind Josh to walk uprightly, to apply pressure to do what's RIGHT, and to reinforce the importance of being forthright and working w LE as being the only action that's acceptable w/in the community (church, friendship, etc) Frankly, what good is a friendship (church, community) if it can not use INFLUENCE. Especially given there is strength in numbers, power in agreement! It might take a spine... but it's the only right response IMO. And this might not be a popular position but this is my true, honest, heartfelt opinion.

arrot:

 

[amm]

The whole caffeine issue is really up to personal choices. My husband drinks caffeinated soda but I don't. For me, it causes headaches and other health symptoms so I avoid it because I know it isn't good for my body.

Visiting teachers do more than just share a scripture. They check on the welfare of a person/family and help out when needed. Personally, the women assigned to be my visiting teachers have always become some of my good friends with the friendship continuing beyond being visiting teachers. In the past, my visiting teachers have helped care for my children when I've been hospitalized, packed up my house when I was unable to due to medical reasons, and just been there for me as friends. It wouldn't surprise me if Susan's visiting teachers were some of the people helping pack up her house and doing anything else that they could to help bring Susan home.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

I am a Mormon (yes I live in Utah LOL), and regarding the discussion about ward members helping Josh move, here is my take on it. If it were my family in their ward and he'd asked for help, I think my husband/myself would probably refuse to go over unless Josh had been a personal friend. In that case, I would think one or both of us MIGHT go, but only out of curiosity or to see if Josh would slip, or to see what he was doing with Susan's things. In general I think the ward members are just trying to perform an act of service and trying not to be judgemental, since Josh has not been arrested. BUT, that being said, I'm pretty sure they were also hoping to see how he was acting and hoping for any insights.

About the Coke thing, it's funny how many interpretations there are out there by people who are curious. There is nothing in church doctrine about cola. Personally I love the stuff, both diet and regular.

Also, about the article that mentioned the article that says most Mormons tend to just believe other Mormons...I disagree. I haven't read that article, but EVERYONE I know (and I know a lot of Mormons...LOL) thinks Josh is guilty as sin and wants him to be arrested PRONTO. Everyone I've talked to thinks he has got to be the perp here and thinks he's also got to be a complete jerk, weasel, snake, and so many other things. When an LDS member does something terrible (as people will no matter what church they go to) I think other LDS people (at least the ones I know) tend to be MORE critical, because we know what they claim to believe, and we know that they know better.

I wish the police had taken that Shopvac too! I want this piece of dirt arrested, tried, and PUNISHED TO THE FULLEST EXTENT OF THE LAW.

Though I don't believe religion has anything to do with this case (unless Josh's dad's "literature" and attitude fueled Josh's anger toward Susan, though it was probably more about control than anything else), I thought I'd offer a local LDS perspective on this. I think about Susan constantly. I hope the police have a break TODAY.

I think we are going to find out that religion has a lot to do with this in the fact that Josh was not living up to the standards of his and Susans beliefs and there was strife over that.

I also think for Josh's friends to bring along their kids to help with the move implies they don't believe he did anything. I mean really why would you put your pearls out like that?

There is no church doctrine saying not to drink cola's like there is about coffee and tea but it has been advised by church leaders to stay away from drinks containing caffeine.

The article I posted was written by a Bishop with a lot of credentials and is pretty good.

 

[motappin]

Thanks for sharing motappin, guess it's good not everyone who shares these beliefs is turning a blind eye or in denial.

I know what you mean Kiki. It almost seems like condoning behavior, no matter what the reason behind it. I guess some people are able to justify helping him move to themselves by saying they are hoping to get information, but just the fact that they are helping him leave when he ought to stay bothers me.

Boundaries are good.

 

[DomCasual]

I'm not a mormon, but visiting teaching is where ward members visit each other, (as well as those inactive within the ward) and share scripture, etc. Visiting teachers go in pairs, and are assigned.

(I live in Utah...have been "offered" visiting teaching, and I politely decline.)

Let me add a little clarity here.

The MAIN purpose for home and visiting teaching is to make sure the needs of each member are being met. Period. End of story.

Spiritual needs would be included in that. But much more often than not, home and visiting teaching is a safety net for physical needs.

I'll give you an example that was discussed just yesterday in my ward. There is an elderly couple in their 80's. The husband has a terminal illness, and his wish is to be home. Insurance will only pay for a certain amount of time for in-home care - they want him to die in the hospital, basically. His wife is caring for him 24/7, and basically killing herself in the process. His home teachers and visiting teachers (home = men; visiting = women) brought the situation up to the Bishop, and a plan was put in place to help (Mormons are really good at rallying troops/mobilizing). At the very least, it was decided that this woman should be able to get a good night's rest each night, so a sign-up sheet was passed around to the men in the ward. Each night, two men would sleep in this man's room with him (two twin beds were brought in). This man can't talk, so a list of his basic needs was made by his wife (turn him over in the bed, get him a drink of water, scratch his nose, etc), and when he needed something, he would clear his throat. One of the men on duty would then go through his list. When they got to the thing he needed, he would raise his eyebrows. He lived his last month or so like that.

When someone in my neighborhood needs something, the only way they won't get help is if they refuse it. The neighborhood is about 50% Mormon, but that is irrelevant as it pertains to this. Have a death in the family? You're going to get food, offers for cleaning, babysitting, etc. Get sick? You can expect the same. I have a few LDS families in my ward that I visit once a month (home teaching). If they need something, they tell me, and I pass it along to those who can help (assuming I can't help myself). Similarly, I have home teachers that do the same for my family. I am also assigned a few non-LDS families in my neighborhood. I have never brought this arrangement up with them, and I've certainly never offered them any sort of "spiritual assistance" (that would seem incredibly presumptuous, on my part). I don't visit them regularly, but I am neighborly. And if I knew of needs they had, I would use the resources of the church to try and help them.

As a man in the church, you get to help with a lot of moves. :woohoo: And most of the time, it's a really positive experience. You end up tired, dirty, sweaty - and mostly happy. You hate it when someone asks - just being honest. You always try to imagine elaborate reasons why you can't help on a certain Saturday. But you remember the gratitude you felt the time your basement flooded, and twelve of your neighbors showed up with buckets. So you help, and you end up glad you did.

It's a two-edged sword. Some people take much more than they give. But at the end of the day, I would rather err on the side of service.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

Where did this happen? Looks like I missed something.

Fresca, it was an article where T. Peterson says Josh freaked out that they were walking on his carpet in bare feet.

 

[DomCasual]

Fresca, it was an article where T. Peterson says Josh freaked out that they were walking on his carpet in bare feet.

Call me crazy, but that seems like more than OCD. That's just being an a-hole. (Sorry, I thought that would be edited down)

(Yes, sometimes Mormons swear.)

 

[indicat]

Call me crazy, but that seems like more than OCD. That's just being an a-hole. (Sorry, I thought that would be edited down)

(Yes, sometimes Mormons swear.)

We are actually quite human believe it or not!!:angel:

 

[motappin]

Call me crazy, but that seems like more than OCD. That's just being an a-hole. (Sorry, I thought that would be edited down)

(Yes, sometimes Mormons swear.)

LOL Dom! We don't profess to be perfect. Well, most of us don't. There are always a few weirdos out there.

If you ask me, JP is, well, what you said, plus a control freak, a slime bucket, and worst of all, a murderer.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

That article so disturbs me. I totally understand friends talking to LE, but what's their reason/need for talking about their Susan's private emails to a newspaper???? We (the public) don't have a need to know about Susan's private emails. It was very wise to give LE the info, as was done. But, it would have been much better for the friends to (after telling LE) keep Susan's business quiet, and not gift additional info about what LE has been told to whoever is responsible for Susan's disappearance.

Gin, I don't know the laws in Utah on hearsay but those emails might have trouble ever getting into evidence in a trial. I would not be surprised that the police with a wink and a nod suggested they be sent to the newspaper.

 

[AlexisFresca]

The whole caffeine issue is really up to personal choices. My husband drinks caffeinated soda but I don't. For me, it causes headaches and other health symptoms so I avoid it because I know it isn't good for my body.

Visiting teachers do more than just share a scripture. They check on the welfare of a person/family and help out when needed. Personally, the women assigned to be my visiting teachers have always become some of my good friends with the friendship continuing beyond being visiting teachers. In the past, my visiting teachers have helped care for my children when I've been hospitalized, packed up my house when I was unable to due to medical reasons, and just been there for me as friends. It wouldn't surprise me if Susan's visiting teachers were some of the people helping pack up her house and doing anything else that they could to help bring Susan home.

TY for the info. What happens if a member has no interst in participating in some of the functions offered by the ward? For example, the visiting teachers.

 

[indicat]

TY for the info. What happens if a member has no interst in participating in some of the functions offered by the ward? For example, the visiting teachers.

Nothing happens, this is done on a voluntary basis.

 

[AlexisFresca]

Let me add a little clarity here.

The MAIN purpose for home and visiting teaching is to make sure the needs of each member are being met. Period. End of story.

Spiritual needs would be included in that. But much more often than not, home and visiting teaching is a safety net for physical needs.

I'll give you an example that was discussed just yesterday in my ward. There is an elderly couple in their 80's. The husband has a terminal illness, and his wish is to be home. Insurance will only pay for a certain amount of time for in-home care - they want him to die in the hospital, basically. His wife is caring for him 24/7, and basically killing herself in the process. His home teachers and visiting teachers (home = men; visiting = women) brought the situation up to the Bishop, and a plan was put in place to help (Mormons are really good at rallying troops/mobilizing). At the very least, it was decided that this woman should be able to get a good night's rest each night, so a sign-up sheet was passed around to the men in the ward. Each night, two men would sleep in this man's room with him (two twin beds were brought in). This man can't talk, so a list of his basic needs was made by his wife (turn him over in the bed, get him a drink of water, scratch his nose, etc), and when he needed something, he would clear his throat. One of the men on duty would then go through his list. When they got to the thing he needed, he would raise his eyebrows. He lived his last month or so like that.

When someone in my neighborhood needs something, the only way they won't get help is if they refuse it. The neighborhood is about 50% Mormon, but that is irrelevant as it pertains to this. Have a death in the family? You're going to get food, offers for cleaning, babysitting, etc. Get sick? You can expect the same. I have a few LDS families in my ward that I visit once a month (home teaching). If they need something, they tell me, and I pass it along to those who can help (assuming I can't help myself). Similarly, I have home teachers that do the same for my family. I am also assigned a few non-LDS families in my neighborhood. I have never brought this arrangement up with them, and I've certainly never offered them any sort of "spiritual assistance" (that would seem incredibly presumptuous, on my part). I don't visit them regularly, but I am neighborly. And if I knew of needs they had, I would use the resources of the church to try and help them.

As a man in the church, you get to help with a lot of moves. :woohoo: And most of the time, it's a really positive experience. You end up tired, dirty, sweaty - and mostly happy. You hate it when someone asks - just being honest. You always try to imagine elaborate reasons why you can't help on a certain Saturday. But you remember the gratitude you felt the time your basement flooded, and twelve of your neighbors showed up with buckets. So you help, and you end up glad you did.

It's a two-edged sword. Some people take much more than they give. But at the end of the day, I would rather err on the side of service.

I find that odd. May I ask why?

 

[Gin]

I understand armchair sleuthing, digging for info, bouncing ideas off one another, reporting any available info or valuable leads to LE, etc. But I also really don't get why people are actually entertaining or professing to be conducting their own undercover "sting operation," and particularly when a "personal friendship" is involved.

If one was any friend at all, why employ deceit and trickery and pretend one is "helping" yet then turn around and say one is really there to "gather information" or do LE's job... I have a problem w this on several levels.
:waitasec:
A person of integrity is IMO essentially the same person w all people at all times in all situations. Why pretend to be a "friend" or "helping" Josh... then come online eg and talk about him behind his back. I'm really not that curious. Honestly, I'd rather have an investigation conducted properly which can ensure evidence against JP can be used in a court of law and bring sure justice. It's unnecessary (and some would say disingenuous, or two-faced but back to my point) and not likely to be helpful. It's interfering IMO w what should be LE's job--which is not wise either. If LE wants to enlist the cooperation of or take someone into THEIR confidence, that's another thing. But Josh isn't going to confide he killed his wife to anyone while loading up his van--and to think one's going to catch him in a significant slip-up or outdo LE is maybe thinking a tad too highly of ourselves...

Far better to use what influence one has--as a friend, fellow church member, or w/e--to remind Josh to walk uprightly, to apply pressure to do what's RIGHT, and to reinforce the importance of being forthright and working w LE as being the only action that's acceptable w/in the community (church, friendship, etc) Frankly, what good is a friendship (church, community) if it can not use INFLUENCE. Especially given there is strength in numbers, power in agreement! It might take a spine... but it's the only right response IMO. And this might not be a popular position but this is my true, honest, heartfelt opinion.

arrot:

Thank you for your heartfelt, thoughtful post.
Folks that are sincere in their wish to be true persons of ethics and integrity don't consciously pick and choose which occasions they will do the right thing, and which times they will do whatever seems expedient.

There is a place for the hard work of law enforcement, and there is a place for citizens of integrity. They have very different missions. Both are needed, and they are separate for good reason.

 

[AlexisFresca]

Fresca, it was an article where T. Peterson says Josh freaked out that they were walking on his carpet in bare feet.

Who is 'they'? Is that a reference to law enforcement when they were searching his house, or something else?

 

[kiki the parrot]

I think we are going to find out that religion has a lot to do with this in the fact that Josh was not living up to the standards of his and Susans beliefs and there was strife over that.

I also think for Josh's friends to bring along their kids to help with the move implies they don't believe he did anything. I mean really why would you put your pearls out like that?

There is no church doctrine saying not to drink cola's like there is about coffee and tea but it has been advised by church leaders to stay away from drinks containing caffeine.

The article I posted was written by a Bishop with a lot of credentials and is pretty good.

Let me add a little clarity here.

The MAIN purpose for home and visiting teaching is to make sure the needs of each member are being met. Period. End of story.

Spiritual needs would be included in that. But much more often than not, home and visiting teaching is a safety net for physical needs.

I'll give you an example that was discussed just yesterday in my ward. There is an elderly couple in their 80's. The husband has a terminal illness, and his wish is to be home. Insurance will only pay for a certain amount of time for in-home care - they want him to die in the hospital, basically. His wife is caring for him 24/7, and basically killing herself in the process. His home teachers and visiting teachers (home = men; visiting = women) brought the situation up to the Bishop, and a plan was put in place to help (Mormons are really good at rallying troops/mobilizing). At the very least, it was decided that this woman should be able to get a good night's rest each night, so a sign-up sheet was passed around to the men in the ward. Each night, two men would sleep in this man's room with him (two twin beds were brought in). This man can't talk, so a list of his basic needs was made by his wife (turn him over in the bed, get him a drink of water, scratch his nose, etc), and when he needed something, he would clear his throat. One of the men on duty would then go through his list. When they got to the thing he needed, he would raise his eyebrows. He lived his last month or so like that.

When someone in my neighborhood needs something, the only way they won't get help is if they refuse it. The neighborhood is about 50% Mormon, but that is irrelevant as it pertains to this. Have a death in the family? You're going to get food, offers for cleaning, babysitting, etc. Get sick? You can expect the same. I have a few LDS families in my ward that I visit once a month (home teaching). If they need something, they tell me, and I pass it along to those who can help (assuming I can't help myself). Similarly, I have home teachers that do the same for my family. I am also assigned a few non-LDS families in my neighborhood. I have never brought this arrangement up with them, and I've certainly never offered them any sort of "spiritual assistance" (that would seem incredibly presumptuous, on my part). I don't visit them regularly, but I am neighborly. And if I knew of needs they had, I would use the resources of the church to try and help them.

As a man in the church, you get to help with a lot of moves. :woohoo: And most of the time, it's a really positive experience. You end up tired, dirty, sweaty - and mostly happy. You hate it when someone asks - just being honest. You always try to imagine elaborate reasons why you can't help on a certain Saturday. But you remember the gratitude you felt the time your basement flooded, and twelve of your neighbors showed up with buckets. So you help, and you end up glad you did.

It's a two-edged sword. Some people take much more than they give. But at the end of the day, I would rather err on the side of service.

Dom that's great... what about when there's a murder in the family... or a man's wife mysteriously shows up missing for weeks... or a POI who's fleeing from the questioning LE wants them to submit to... any provision or protocol for that? Or just show up and roll up the sleeves and the moving van... :woohoo:

I'm just completely dumbfounded that despite such a reportedly closeknit, family-oriented, community there is not only no effort to require what is right, but instead to facilitate what's clearly wrong. JMO

arrot: