VA - Couple & two teens found murdered, Farmville, 15 Sept 2009 #1

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KindraLore said:
I think that some are misconstruing what some of our opinions are here. I personally am not saying THE MUSIC itself is what made Sam kill. However, I think that the LIFESTYLE (negative, dark and evil in nature) certainly perpetuated it.

This to me IMO is very much like a cult, with disciples and minions and apostles. It is in fact much different than 9 inch nail fans, and those that compare the two IMO are comparing apples to oranges.

I find it telling that Sam wrote and sang about the very evil thing (in detail) that he ending up doing.
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Correlation does not equal causation.

The question is whether the music caused the crime or contributed to it, or instead if the person with a predisposition to commit crimes like this is drawn to affiliate with this music and scene. The correlation part is pretty obvious, certainly true, since people form social groups around media and themes that they relate to. But the causation idea is not supported by the evidence.

As far as those labels of the so called cultists, the idea is to scare and offend "normal" people. It seems like it works.

And then there's the C-word itself again..."cult".

What exactly defines a cult in your view?
 
KindraLore said:
So now you are bringing politics into this discussion too?

BTW - the FACTS are that LE has brought in an occult specialist so they arent as easily dicounting this band's music/lifestyle to the case as you.
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IIRC, Kelley's brother said that the occult specialist was never allowed into the house. To me that says that even if he was brought in to answer some questions for LE, he was never actually a part of the investigation.

We'll have to wait and see if any more info comes out about the occult aspect but for now it sounds like 1) LE doesn't believe it's a central motive, or 2) LE is downplaying an occult motive to protect their investigation and the validity of their evidence. At this point, I'm going with 1 but that could change as the case unfolds.
 
dangrsmind said:
Correlation does not equal causation.

The question is whether the music caused the crime or contributed to it, or instead if the person with a predisposition to commit crimes like this is drawn to affiliate with this music and scene. The correlation part is pretty obvious, certainly true, since people form social groups around media and themes that they relate to. But the causation idea is not supported by the evidence.

As far as those labels of the so called cultists, the idea is to scare and offend "normal" people. It seems like it works.

And then there's the C-word itself again..."cult".

What exactly defines a cult in your view?
Click to expand...

I will never go as far as to say the music could not contribute at all, maybe it did, but to a normal person it shouldnt. McCroskey has a screw loose, I think without the music theres a high chance down the line he would have killed anyways in some domestic dispute. It takes a certain kind of person to have murder in them, I dont think music makes a murderer.
 
Wasn't LE going to charge Sam with the rest of the murders yesterday? I've checked online and don't see any mention of it. Has anyone else managed to dig up anything on this? (Why isn't this case getting more/better coverage???)
 
dangrsmind said:
Correlation does not equal causation.

The question is whether the music caused the crime or contributed to it, or instead if the person with a predisposition to commit crimes like this is drawn to affiliate with this music and scene. The correlation part is pretty obvious, certainly true, since people form social groups around media and themes that they relate to. But the causation idea is not supported by the evidence.

As far as those labels of the so called cultists, the idea is to scare and offend "normal" people. It seems like it works.

And then there's the C-word itself again..."cult".

What exactly defines a cult in your view?
Click to expand...

A cult in this case is a group of leaders (ie SKR and WIR) who seek out those weak and susceptible (young rebellious outcasts). They have rules and hierarchy and yes they have rituals such as Communion wounds. The commonly refer to themselves as "The Family" (ring a bell with other cults throughout history?) and as you have pointed out yourself, SinkTanic proclaims to be an occultist and urges these young followers to listen to "his word" and find the true definitions of his songs and doctrines.

If it walks like a duck...
 
I think the word you are looking for is "misrepresenting", as in the first stage of constructing a straw man argument. "Misconstruing" implies a lack of understanding that I do not believe is a factor here.



I absolutely agree with you here, and I don't think I'm the only one. Argumentum ad populum is not a valid argument, of course.



This is the crucial point.
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Several posters here have argued that Shrim aka SickTanick is a cult leader who used his influence to control his followers such that it lead inevitably to this result. I think this is likely not true, but clearly not supported by the currently public evidence.

I don't think there is any disagreement that disturbed individuals are likely to affiliate with horrorcore or other similar musical forms.

As far as your inferences about my intentions, you are simply wrong. Remember, I brought up the use of gematria in SickTanick's music. I'm very curious as to what exactly is hidden in this music and whether McCroskey (and others) might have been aware of these hidden meanings. I've done some research into this in the past 48 hours, and I can write some code to produce the numerical equivalents from SickTanick's music. There are actually many different gematria schemes, so I am not sure which one he employed exactly. Also, I do not have the expertise in occult numerology to interpret the resulting numbers.

If anyone out there does, I can provide the numerical strings to you for interpretation probably sometime tomorrow or Tuesday...
 
One individual involved in horrorcore refers to the murders as "these unspeakable acts."

Not to put too fine a point on it, but "unspeakable acts" are what this genre is all about.

The Rolling Stones may have composed Sympathy For The Devil, but they didn't live that lifestyle, far from it. The whole flash-my-tongue thing ended once they left the building.

When you mimic and fetishize and garnish and worship death and blood and axe murder and abortions in a toilet, where do you go from there? What envelope is left to push?

Any horrorcore guru who expresses dismay or . . . horror at ACTUAL murder reveals himself as nothing but a wuss in silly makeup. What a dilemma for all those people making devil horns on MySpace! These guys aren't afraid of anything--as long as it's FAKE.
 
KindraLore said:
A cult in this case is a group of leaders (ie SKR and WIR) who seek out those weak and susceptible (young rebellious outcasts). They have rules and hierarchy and yes they have rituals such as Communion wounds. The commonly refer to themselves as "The Family" (ring a bell with other cults throughout history?) and as you have pointed out yourself, SinkTanic proclaims to be an occultist and urges these young followers to listen to "his word" and find the true definitions of his songs and doctrines.

If it walks like a duck...
Click to expand...

Now you are connecting SKR and WIR? I thought they were business competitors essentially, and now you are saying they are together part of a single cult? Evidence?

As for the word "family", do some research on the juggalos. They call themselves family, it is not a cult reference, that's just the way people talk in the underground. I don't think this usage is unusual, although I understand what you are saying about the echoes of the Manson Family.

I don't know about the "communion wounds". Can you inform me?
 
dangrsmind said:
Now you are connecting SKR and WIR? I thought they were business competitors essentially, and now you are saying they are together part of a single cult? Evidence?

As for the word "family", do some research on the juggalos. They call themselves family, it is not a cult reference, that's just the way people talk in the underground. I don't think this usage is unusual, although I understand what you are saying about the echoes of the Manson Family.

I don't know about the "communion wounds". Can you inform me?
Click to expand...

Communion wound:

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/ind...dID=64907055&albumID=1438158&imageID=17044447
 
VCDaedalus said:
One individual involved in horrorcore refers to the murders as "these unspeakable acts."

Not to put too fine a point on it, but "unspeakable acts" are what this genre is all about.

The Rolling Stones may have composed Sympathy For The Devil, but they didn't live that lifestyle, far from it. The whole flash-my-tongue thing ended once they left the building.

When you mimic and fetishize and garnish and worship death and blood and axe murder and abortions in a toilet, where do you go from there? What envelope is left to push?

Any horrorcore guru who expresses dismay or . . . horror at ACTUAL murder reveals himself as nothing but a wuss in silly makeup. What a dilemma for all those people making devil horns on MySpace! These guys aren't afraid of anything--as long as it's FAKE.
Click to expand...

That wasn't what people said about the Stones at the time. Recall that they not only wrote the song Sympathy for the Devil, but also an entire album entitled By Her Satanic Majesty's Request and another entitled Goat's Head Soup. See http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils in America/Rock-n-Roll/rolling_stones.htm

I agree with your assessment about the dilemma the horrorcore folks are in regarding their music however.
 
KindraLore said:
I think that some are misconstruing what some of our opinions are here. I personally am not saying THE MUSIC itself is what made Sam kill. However, I think that the LIFESTYLE (negative, dark and evil in nature) certainly perpetuated it.

This to me IMO is very much like a cult, with disciples and minions and apostles. It is in fact much different than 9 inch nail fans, and those that compare the two IMO are comparing apples to oranges.

I find it telling that Sam wrote and sang about the very evil thing (in detail) that he ending up doing.
Click to expand...

KindraLore, I wasn't comparing horrorcore to NIN. I was responding to the point made about music and driving. It was meant to be a humorous aside; I apologize if it was confusing.

I actually agree that violent entertainment can lower inhibitions and desensitize people to violence. But Sam was also a video gamer. Given his taste in music, it's probably safe to assume that he played violent video games which could have been as much, or more, influential as the horrorcore music scene.

IMO, Sam's inner demon drew him towards entertainment with violent imagery. Ray Bradbury (and I extensively paraphrase) once opined that it was fear of death that led people to read horror stories and that by confronting our mortality we were preparing for our inevitable demise. IMO, that offers a good explanation of the appeal of horrorcore. Unlike most people, Sam wasn't attracted to horror out of fear; he was attracted to it out of desire. This desire is what brought Sam to where he is today.
 
dangrsmind said:
Now that is a rather nasty head injury unlike the previous love nibble given to SickTanick that someone posted. Looks similar to some injuries I've seen from people getting brained in the mosh pit rather than any sort of purposefully inflicted ritual wound though.
Click to expand...

They purposely get these types of wounds and smear blood all over themselves and others. It is NOT an accidental mosh pit wound.

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/ind...dID=64907055&albumID=1438158&imageID=17044955

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/ind...dID=64907055&albumID=1438158&imageID=17044965

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/ind...dID=64907055&albumID=1438158&imageID=17044956
 
gxm said:
KindraLore, I wasn't comparing horrorcore to NIN. I was responding to the point made about music and driving. It was meant to be a humorous aside; I apologize if it was confusing.

I actually agree that violent entertainment can lower inhibitions and desensitize people to violence. But Sam was also a video gamer. Given his taste in music, it's probably safe to assume that he played violent video games which could have been as much, or more, influential as the horrorcore music scene.

IMO, Sam's inner demon drew him towards entertainment with violent imagery. Ray Bradbury (and I extensively paraphrase) once opined that it was fear of death that led people to read horror stories and that by confronting our mortality we were preparing for our inevitable demise. IMO, that offers a good explanation of the appeal of horrorcore. Unlike most people, Sam wasn't attracted to horror out of fear; he was attracted to it out of desire. This desire is what brought Sam to where he is today.
Click to expand...

Hi gxm. It wasn't directly to you in particular, just a general statement.
 
gxm said:
KindraLore, I wasn't comparing horrorcore to NIN. I was responding to the point made about music and driving. It was meant to be a humorous aside; I apologize if it was confusing.

I actually agree that violent entertainment can lower inhibitions and desensitize people to violence. But Sam was also a video gamer. Given his taste in music, it's probably safe to assume that he played violent video games which could have been as much, or more, influential as the horrorcore music scene.

IMO, Sam's inner demon drew him towards entertainment with violent imagery. Ray Bradbury (and I extensively paraphrase) once opined that it was fear of death that led people to read horror stories and that by confronting our mortality we were preparing for our inevitable demise. IMO, that offers a good explanation of the appeal of horrorcore. Unlike most people, Sam wasn't attracted to horror out of fear; he was attracted to it out of desire. This desire is what brought Sam to where he is today.
Click to expand...

Sam played Gears of War and Halo 3 at least. I think someone posted a link previously that included this info.

Again, there is very good scientific evidence that listening to violent music primes people for aggression. I posted the link to one such study earlier today. The mystery is why this doesn't seem to have any impact in the real world in terms of criminal or violent actions by almost all of the people that listen. This is documented by the decrease in violent crime coincident with increasingly violent media. Any viable theory of media influence on crime must explain this mystery.
 
KindraLore said:
They purposely get these types of wounds and smear blood all over themselves and others. It is NOT an accidental mosh pit wound.

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/ind...dID=64907055&albumID=1438158&imageID=17044955

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/ind...dID=64907055&albumID=1438158&imageID=17044965

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/ind...dID=64907055&albumID=1438158&imageID=17044956
Click to expand...

Well that's clearly an unsafe practice, and I can't imagine venue owners would allow it given the potential for serious liability. Also, yuch.

Or is that fake blood? I'd be interested in PiXy's take on this.
 
dangrsmind said:
Now you are connecting SKR and WIR? I thought they were business competitors essentially, and now you are saying they are together part of a single cult? Evidence?

As for the word "family", do some research on the juggalos. They call themselves family, it is not a cult reference, that's just the way people talk in the underground. I don't think this usage is unusual, although I understand what you are saying about the echoes of the Manson Family.

I don't know about the "communion wounds". Can you inform me?
Click to expand...

All I have to say is, why do you keep insisting on evidence? Not that there isn't enough to see, but even LE officers and profilers must speculate in order find out exactly what happened. They take their speculations and find proof or if there is no proof they discredit whatever they can't prove. We aren't saying we're trained professionals or anything, we're just discussing the possibilities.
Also, there are a s**t load of these pictures of them and their so called communion.
 
Well, a site named jesus-is-savior.com is going to have a highly colored viewpoint on rock music, not just the Stones. I think the actual lifestyle of the Rolling Stones in that period would not be comparable to that of contemporary horrorcore devotees. How many devil tatts does Mick Jagger sport, how many slash scars? Did he file his teeth? Charlie Watts, at his age, looks like he's lived a relatively quiet bankers-hours lifestyle (JMO).

I mean, Sid Vicious comes a lot closer, if you want people who actually lived their lyrics.
 
dangrsmind said:
Well that's clearly an unsafe practice, and I can't imagine venue owners would allow it given the potential for serious liability. Also, yuch.

Or is that fake blood? I'd be interested in PiXy's take on this.
Click to expand...

Is this fake also?

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/ind...dID=64907055&albumID=1462425&imageID=36429753

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/ind...dID=64907055&albumID=1462425&imageID=36429833

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/ind...dID=64907055&albumID=1462425&imageID=36429856

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/ind...dID=64907055&albumID=1462425&imageID=45796141

I cannot say for sure. Does it make it any less disturbing if it is fake?? To me the answer is no.
 
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