VA - Couple & two teens found murdered, Farmville, 15 Sept 2009 #1

[Heroine]

And interestingly, no one pays attention until some white suburban kids get killed. How surprising.

Some of the similarities I see to the early punk culture that I experienced in the 70s and 80s...

- Harsh "non-musical" music, rejected by many people at the time as being "bad" music
- Socially offensive lyrics attacking accepted social institutions, religion, etc.
- Altering of appearance to shock or disturb "normal" people
- Violence in lyrics, musical sound, band names (i.e. The Dead Kennedys), and at concerts (the mosh pit wasn't invented until the late 70s...)
- Drug use often to extreme excess (See also Barrington Hall at UCB)
- Evidence of self injury, i.e. SickTanick bashes himself with his microphone...
- DIY attitude, the audience is not just listening to the music but is an active participant in the experience of it, and often is part of the creation of the music.

I could go on.

Yeah but do these band purposely make friends with their fans and inspire them to do adult-like things, not to mention, are these bands 20-30 befriending 14-16 year olds, teaching them how to smoke a joint?
It's not just really the music that bothers me, it's mainly the circumstances created by the artists. Music is what you in your own mind make it sure, but when the artists have a greater influence on you than your own family and they see all the acts happening right in front of them by the people they respect the most, with their young feeble minds, these songs become more than just mere words.
I'll admit, I've been seen by a psychologist before and he had a good point, all of our anxieties (that's what I was being treated for, panic attacks), fears and evil are all learned, you aren't born evil or with panic attacks or whatever ails you usually it's things that happened in your life that gives you those fears and thoughts about everything.
Example: (the same used by my psychologist) when you're a child you look up to your mother and she's goddess like to your young mind because she's important in your life. So for instance if your mother sees a mouse run across the room and she jumps on a chair you as a child see her fear and act on it. You too will jump in the chair because your mother (the person you trust the most) is afraid, so from then on you will be afraid of a mouse, your mother taught you that. Of course it can be relearned as you get older, but get what I'm saying?

 

[dangrsmind]

Yeah but do these band purposely make friends with their fans and inspire them to do adult-like things, not to mention, are these bands 20-30 befriending 14-16 year olds, teaching them how to smoke a joint?
It's not just really the music that bothers me, it's mainly the circumstances created by the artists. Music is what you in your own mind make it sure, but when the artists have a greater influence on you than your their own family and they see all the acts happening right in front of them by the people they respect the most, with their young feeble minds, these songs become more than just mere words.
I'll admit, I've been seen by a psychologist before and he had a good point, all of our anxieties (that's what I was being treated for, panic attacks), fears and evil are all learned, you aren't born evil or with panic attacks or whatever ails you usually it's things that happen in your life that gives you those fears and thoughts about everything.
Example: (the same used by my psychologist) when you're a child you look up to your mother and she's goddess like to your young mind because she's important in your life. So for instance if your mother sees a mouse run across the room and she jumps on a chair you as a child see her fear and act on it. You too will jump in the chair because your mother (the person you trust the most) is afraid, so from then on you will be afraid of a mouse, your mother taught you that. Of course it can be relearned as you get older, but get what I'm saying?

Yes, I get what you are saying, but you as far as music you are poorly informed. Ever heard of Jerry Lee Lewis?

Many bands in many genres of music have befriended and even partied with their underage fans. A friend of mine was the "assistant" of a very famous punk musician and she was maybe 18 or 19 at the time to be generous. I went to high school with a girl (maybe at the age of 16?) that was an exotic dancer for a well known band of that era that will remain nameless. None of this stuff is new at all.

 

[dangrsmind]

Just like yours, unless you think you're better than everyone else.

Everyone here is entitled to their own opinions, including you, but we all have to use the same facts. If you want to argue a point feel free, but do not put down other posters.

Point taken.

However, I have tried to incorporate some factual information into my postings, i.e. the link to the cached page of McCroskey's sister where she thanks Shrim aka SickTanick for helping her family and my comments about gematria. I see a lot of posters here making accusations and statements about individuals whom they do not know, whom they have never met, and who did not perpetrate this crime and apparently (based on the existing evidence) had nothing to do with it. In the absence of supporting evidence, I claim these are false accusations, are also potentially libelous to the individuals involved, and deserve to be called out as such.

 

[Bee Happy]

Your opinions are fine, but they aren't based on anything but your pre-existing beliefs and biases. I'm sorry maybe we don't use the word the same way, but to me statements made in the absence of evidence are called speculation. There's no evidence that SickTanick did anything inappropriate with a minor, i..e having sex or consuming drugs, that I've seen here. I see some evidence that Razakel may have been drinking with the girls in a bathroom, but again we can't confirm that for sure from the presented photograph.

As far as parental advisory labels, that's a voluntary system created by the music industry to avoid litigation An independently published artist has no obligation to attach these to their works. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_Advisory

BBM

Sounds like someone else we know. LOL

Pixy, so sorry for all that you're going through.

 

[dangrsmind]

BBM

Sounds like someone else we know. LOL

Pixy, so sorry for all that you're going through.

ORLY?

Let me hit you with some science then...

There's really very little evidence that violent music leads to criminal activity. Most of the research documents correlation, i.e. people that listen to heavy metal music are more prone to risky behaviors, however there is very little in the way of evidence of actual causation. What we do know is that listening to violent music, even if its humorous in context i.e. ICP, primes people for aggression. There is pretty solid research about this point and really its not very earth shattering news to fans of this sort of music. Isn't the entire point of playing some loud metal or horrorcore or whatever to get pumped up and have some fun? You can feel the energy and adrenaline if you pay attention.

PiXy, I too am sorry for the loss of your friends. But knowledge is power.

In both animals and humans there are four primary affective modes or systems...

Seeking
Anger
Fear
and
Rage

Guess which mode this music is tapping into?

But lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Some of the music is really interesting, provacative, and even, dare I say, enlightening. I've read about ICP et al a lot this week and there seems to be something more than initially meets the eye here. What I see is something more like a real American tantra, a religious practice, and I think it is interesting. I know something about the underground too as I've occasionally been known to play records at not entirely legal warehouse parties etc. though more on the electronic music tip and not the horrorcore scene.

What Shrim is doing seems like mostly an imitation of others, I previously mentioned Black Sabbath and horrorcore's KillaC comes to mind immediately too. I have a hard time seeing the evil mastermind that some are trying to portray here. I see some bad judgment involved with the throwing of all ages events that I expect SKR may adjust going forward.

But then there is the gematria thing, so yeah, that makes me say "hmm"...

 

[tapu]

In real life, I'm a book editor.

 

[boldbadger]

ORLY?

Let me hit you with some science then...

There's really very little evidence that violent music leads to criminal activity. Most of the research documents correlation, i.e. people that listen to heavy metal music are more prone to risky behaviors, however there is very little in the way of evidence of actual causation. What we do know is that listening to violent music, even if its humorous in context i.e. ICP, primes people for aggression. There is pretty solid research about this point and really its not very earth shattering news to fans of this sort of music. Isn't the entire point of playing some loud metal or horrorcore or whatever to get pumped up and have some fun? You can feel the energy and adrenaline if you pay attention.

PiXy, I too am sorry for the loss of your friends. But knowledge is power.

In both animals and humans there are four primary affective modes or systems...

Seeking
Anger
Fear
and
Rage

Guess which mode this music is tapping into?

But lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Some of the music is really interesting, provacative, and even, dare I say, enlightening. I've read about ICP et al a lot this week and there seems to be something more than initially meets the eye here. What I see is something more like a real American tantra, a religious practice, and I think it is interesting. I know something about the underground too as I've occasionally been known to play records at not entirely legal warehouse parties etc. though more on the electronic music tip and not the horrorcore scene.

What Shrim is doing seems like mostly an imitation of others, I previously mentioned Black Sabbath and horrorcore's KillaC comes to mind immediately too. I have a hard time seeing the evil mastermind that some are trying to portray here. I see some bad judgment involved with the throwing of all ages events that I expect SKR may adjust going forward.

But then there is the gematria thing, so yeah, that makes me say "hmm"...

I read your threads dangrsmind, and to a certain extent, they are well thought out and researched, I too think that this was the act of a single, twisted individual and not part of a greater plot, I also appreciate the work you did in regards to gematria, I missed that, nice sleuthing.

I probably spent a couple of hours, in morbid fascination, diving deeper and deeper into this whole genre of music that I had never heard of until these murders. I have to ask you, if you have children, would you want your kids getting wrapped into this stuff? The more I read the threads and see the imagary, the more I think that as 'art' goes, this is about as unhealthy as you can get for impressionable teenagers. With the constant violent themes being driven home, from every angle and every image, I think it goes way beyond just music. In many ways there are some similarities with punk and its shock value artists, but I don't remember them ever being so dedicated to making their themes into complex webs of evil imagary and art. One week, they would sing about abortions, next week, unspeakable acts on their girlfriends and then smash up a few guitars and spit at everyone, just seemed like raw music though. With the web these days, music, such as in this case, goes to a whole new level of influence that listening to our 45's could never reach. In that sense, I think we are dealing with a different animal that the 80's, early 90's and I for one, think this is deeply unhealthy for young teenagers. What we are also missing here is all the 10-13 year olds also engaged in this, becoming part of these horror communities on the web, as well as all the private chats and other events hidden to us somewhat. These communities are stretching far deeper than the 80's, when you would go to a gig for 2 hours to rock away, get drunk and come home. Certainly my mother never had the name of the lead singer to call when she was worried about me. The fact that Raz and others are that much older and are so engrained into these kids lives takes this away from the argument of 'entertainment' in my mind, and her and her scene look like a key influence in the beahviour of Sam. This may be why she is a little spooked as Pixie has shown, probably shocked to the core as to what's happened.

And just becuase there is not evidence from music in the past leading to violence maybe is not apples to apples. Maybe what we are seeing here is the beginning of evidence of how the web has created something different and how entertainment, particularly with such constant violence and drive for evil, has a far higher impact on behaviour than ever before with web, chat rooms, streaming video and vast images of horror and death a click away etc.


Anyway, even though the above is unlikely ever to be proven....personally I'd lock my kids up than allow them to be saturated with this imagary for 16 hours a day. This instinctively feels wrong to the core.

 

[Kano]

There plenty of videos of drug use around youtube, and there plenty of videos of minors being involved with it, if you look into who is behind the names some..

:edit: i notice you fairly new dangerous.. What is your caus for standing up for this so much and what is your relation to it?

 

[dangrsmind]

I read your threads dangrsmind, and to a certain extent, they are well thought out and researched, I too think that this was the act of a single, twisted individual and not part of a greater plot, I also appreciate the work you did in regards to gematria, I missed that, nice sleuthing.

I probably spent a couple of hours, in morbid fascination, diving deeper and deeper into this whole genre of music that I had never heard of until these murders. I have to ask you, if you have children, would you want your kids getting wrapped into this stuff? The more I read the threads and see the imagary, the more I think that as 'art' goes, this is about as unhealthy as you can get for impressionable teenagers. With the constant violent themes being driven home, from every angle and every image, I think it goes way beyond just music. In many ways there are some similarities with punk and its shock value artists, but I don't remember them ever being so dedicated to making their themes into complex webs of evil imagary and art. One week, they would sing about abortions, next week, unspeakable acts on their girlfriends and then smash up a few guitars and spit at everyone, just seemed like raw music though. With the web these days, music, such as in this case, goes to a whole new level of influence that listening to our 45's could never reach. In that sense, I think we are dealing with a different animal that the 80's, early 90's and I for one, think this is deeply unhealthy for young teenagers. What we are also missing here is all the 10-13 year olds also engaged in this, becoming part of these horror communities on the web, as well as all the private chats and other events hidden to us somewhat. These communities are stretching far deeper than the 80's, when you would go to a gig for 2 hours to rock away, get drunk and come home. Certainly my mother never had the name of the lead singer to call when she was worried about me. The fact that Raz and others are that much older and are so engrained into these kids lives takes this away from the argument of 'entertainment' in my mind, and her and her scene look like a key influence in the beahviour of Sam. This may be why she is a little spooked as Pixie has shown, probably shocked to the core as to what's happened.

And just becuase there is not evidence from music in the past leading to violence maybe is not apples to apples. Maybe what we are seeing here is the beginning of evidence of how the web has created something different and how entertainment, particularly with such constant violence and drive for evil, has a far higher impact on behaviour than ever before with web, chat rooms, streaming video and vast images of horror and death a click away etc.


Anyway, even though the above is unlikely ever to be proven....personally I'd lock my kids up than allow them to be saturated with this imagary for 16 hours a day. This instinctively feels wrong to the core.

No, I would not allow my children to view this sort of content any more than I would allow them to watch ultra-violent horror movies with similar content. However I don't control them all the time, my oldest will be 18 in a few weeks, and obviously kids can access all sorts of stuff over the Internet even if you use filters.

However, seriously, McDonalds is responsible for more deaths annually than horrorcore music. And I think if anyone did a study of the music murderers listened to before committing their crimes the results might be surprising. Sadly no one has done this study so we can't say for sure. There's a nice PhD thesis for someone here...

As far as the theory that easy access to Internet violence is enhancing violence in the real world or increasing violent crime, you'll have a hard time explaining the decades long decrease in violent crime in America that has been happening at exactly the same time as this same content has become so easy to access. So the science doesn't seem to support your argument unfortunately.

With that said, the so called "venting" theories that held that violent content such as horrorcore music acts as a release for anger or violence have also largely been disproven. So yes, violent content arguably does prime you for aggressive and/or violent action, it maybe isn't good for you, i.e. by causing your body to release stress hormones, and it isn't any sort of emotional release, but in reality these effects appear to have very little impact on almost all people. Most people can listen to the Rolling Stones or Black Sabbath or KillaC and they don't kill or harm anyone. This is a scientific fact.

Sadly this case might represent one of the rare exceptions.

 

[boldbadger]

No, I would not allow my children to view this sort of content any more than I would allow them to watch ultra-violent horror movies with similar content. However I don't control them all the time, my oldest will be 18 in a few weeks, and obviously kids can access all sorts of stuff over the Internet even if you use filters.

However, seriously, McDonalds is responsible for more deaths annually than horrorcore music. And I think if anyone did a study of the music murderers listened to before committing their crimes the results might be surprising. Sadly no one has done this study so we can't say for sure. There's a nice PhD thesis for someone here...

As far as the theory that easy access to Internet violence is enhancing violence in the real world or increasing violent crime, you'll have a hard time explaining the decades long decrease in violent crime in America that has been happening at exactly the same time as this same content has become so easy to access. So the science doesn't seem to support your argument unfortunately.

With that said, the so called "venting" theories that held that violent content such as horrorcore music acts as a release for anger or violence have also largely been disproven. So yes, violent content arguably does prime you for aggressive and/or violent action, it maybe isn't good for you, i.e. by causing your body to release stress hormones, and it isn't any sort of emotional release, but in reality these effects appear to have very little impact on almost all people. Most people can listen to the Rolling Stones or Black Sabbath or KillaC and they don't kill or harm anyone. This is a scientific fact.

Sadly this case might be one of the rare exceptions.

If violence is on the decrease and this is such an exception, why would you be concerned about your kids being involved in this scene? I'm sure you let them eat hamburgers. Also, you did not comment on the depth of engagement these individuals had with their fans. Comparing this to a movie is not even close IMO. The actors are not setting up violent websites and continuing with the themes they portayed in the movie. You turn it off, everyone does, its over, there's no meating up after the movie to drink each others blood. This is different, again in my opinion, which is all we have to play with right now, I think we are in a new world of influence here that you cannot compare with the science you are quoting.

 

[dangrsmind]

There plenty of videos of drug use around youtube, and there plenty of videos of minors being involved with it, if you look into who is behind the names some..

:edit: i notice you fairly new dangerous.. What is your caus for standing up for this so much and what is your relation to it?

For some reason the story caught my attention. I dug deep deep deep into this as is my way with everything, and in addition to some of the links I've already posted I found an appreciation for some of the music and culture.

I also found this site in some of my research and was surprised I didn't already know about it, since in my professional life I am a scientist and engineer working in areas such as fraud prevention and criminal intent inference. Professionally I use technologies such as image processing, facial recognition, AI, and machine learning. I'm also trained in deception detection and for example have a certificate at the expert level in Paul Ekman's microexpression recognition system known as METT.

I like underground music and I don't like liars, evil, or ignorance.

That's just how I roll...

 

[dangrsmind]

If violence is on the decrease and this is such an exception, why would you be concerned about your kids being involved in this scene? I'm sure you let them eat hamburgers. Also, you did not comment on the depth of engagement these individuals had with their fans. Comparing this to a movie is not even close IMO. The actors are not setting up violent websites and continuing with the themes they portayed in the movie. You turn it off, everyone does, its over, there's no meating up after the movie to drink each others blood. This is different, again in my opinion, which is all we have to play with right now, I think we are in a new world of influence here that you cannot compare with the science you are quoting.

Science trumps opinion. See http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/02/weekinreview/02dewan.html [editted as I originally posted the wrong link]

Also, what about previous violent music scenes such as heavy metal and punk rock? It seems that these genres of music are/were just as all inclusive and immersive as you imagine the horrorcore scene to be. I don't see a difference and I was there for some of it...

To answer your question about my parenting decisions, I wouldn't let my kids consume this content because in my opinion they are not old enough to integrate it into their understanding of the world. Some other kids might be. I'm the parent and I get to decide.

Finally, I just have to ask, did some blood get drunk at STFW or did you just make that bit up? I didn't hear about that at all. Looked like they were drinking Southern Comfort in the bathroom picture.

 

[dangrsmind]

This is a significant point.

Here's some music I like:

YouTube - Rammstein - Laichzeit (Live aus Berlin)


I've got this on a CD in my car, along with my Beethoven, Simon & Garfunkel, X, Violent Femmes, Fiona Apple, Lucinda Williams, and a bunch of other stuff.

In this song the lyrics speak of having sex with your dog. I listen to it, and I don't have sex with my dog. However, if I were to put up a bunch of Myspace sites about having sex with my dog, write songs about having sex with my dog, hang around the band instead of working and talk about having sex with my dog, design websites for other bands that sing about having sex with your dog, and pretty much define my existence in terms of having sex with my dog, if I was then arrested for having sex with my dog it would certainly be reasonable to suggest that there was SOME SORT OF CONNECTION between my actions and the lifestyle I sought out through the expressions in these songs.

The fact that some people are NOT influenced does NOT prove that NONE are.

You are missing the point. Everyone is influenced (i.e. primed for aggression) by the music and despite this fact almost no one commits crimes after listening. In fact fewer and fewer people are committing crimes despite the increase in availability of violent media, increased immersiveness of the media, and so on. No scientifically viable theory of media influence can ignore this data.

As far as the dog f*cking song, I don't think anyone has studied the connection between music preferences and bestiality but you might want to change up your playlist just to be safe.

 

[absynthminded1]

Your opinions are fine, but they aren't based on anything but your pre-existing beliefs and biases. I'm sorry maybe we don't use the word the same way, but to me statements made in the absence of evidence are called speculation. There's no evidence that SickTanick did anything inappropriate with a minor, i..e having sex or consuming drugs, that I've seen here. I see some evidence that Razakel may have been drinking with the girls in a bathroom, but again we can't confirm that for sure from the presented photograph.

As far as parental advisory labels, that's a voluntary system created by the music industry to avoid litigation An independently published artist has no obligation to attach these to their works. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_Advisory

Internet pseudo intellectuals... if you've seen one.........

I especially enjoy the Google/Wikipedia masters amongst you all....

Point taken.

However, I have tried to incorporate some factual information into my postings, i.e. the link to the cached page of McCroskey's sister where she thanks Shrim aka SickTanick for helping her family and my comments about gematria. I see a lot of posters here making accusations and statements about individuals whom they do not know, whom they have never met, and who did not perpetrate this crime and apparently (based on the existing evidence) had nothing to do with it. In the absence of supporting evidence, I claim these are false accusations, are also potentially libelous to the individuals involved, and deserve to be called out as such.

Climb down from your high horse and look at some of the photos I've linked, Dr. Phil. A sped in a crash helmet could look at the pics they proudly flaunt on their myspace profiles and tell that something isn't right with the whole picture. You can have your science, I will take my life experience and COMMON SENSE.

Finally, I just have to ask, did some blood get drunk at STFW or did you just make that bit up? I didn't hear about that at all. Looked like they were drinking Southern Comfort in the bathroom picture.

Yes, they DO drink blood; they bite each other until blood is drawn

Exhibit A)

http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/32/l_5747fd82e9c3431a940f4a1299e67220.jpg (at SFTW)

 

[dangrsmind]

Well, since you know it all and I'm such an idiot, why don't you explain your point in small words that someone as lowly as myself can understand?

I am not trying to insult you. But hey you brought up the Blink 182 song...

The science as I understand is this. A broad range of people, essentially everyone, exhibit a tendancy to aggression (in a specific laboratory defined sense) after listening to aggressive lyrics. It didn't seem to matter if the lyrics were displayed in a comedic setting either. This is why it is a good idea to listen to mellow music while driving BTW.

As several posters including yourself have stated, we live in a time where violent media is increasingly available as well increasingly intense and immersive. I agree. So one would naturally expect increased violence and violent crime to result. It makes perfect sense, I get it, but it also happens to be wrong.

Some researchers previously argued that violent media acted as some sort of emotional release valve allowing people to "vent" anger or violent emotions. This might explain the observed decrease in criminal behavior. This idea has essentially been discredited.

And yet, mysteriously, violent crime rates are decreasing across the country and have been for some time. Why? I don't know and from what I understand neither really does anyone else. See the NYT article I previously linked. Another PhD thesis opportunity.

I listened to the first half of PiXy's interview and I note that Shrim refers a lot to 9/11 conspiracy theories and various other frightening ideas covered on the Alex Jones show. The supporting role the conspiracy theory culture of fear plays in this crime is interesting but sadly not very surprising. This would be the second time I've seen this connection actually. I haven't finished listening to the entire program yet, but I will have some additional comments after I finish. Interesting so far.

 

[absynthminded1]

I listened to the first half of PiXy's interview and I note that Shrim refers a lot to 9/11 conspiracy theories and various other frightening ideas covered on the Alex Jones show. The supporting role the conspiracy theory culture of fear plays in this crime is interesting but sadly not very surprising. This would be the second time I've seen this connection actually. I haven't finished listening to the entire program yet, but I will have some additional comments after I finish. Interesting so far.

Jordan Maxwell is somewhat Sicktanick's self-proclaimed "guru."

WWW.​JORDANMAXWELL.​COM

 

[dangrsmind]

Internet pseudo intellectuals... if you've seen one.........

I especially enjoy the Google/Wikipedia masters amongst you all....



Climb down from your high horse and look at some of the photos I've linked, Dr. Phil. A sped in a crash helmet could look at the pics they proudly flaunt on their myspace profiles and tell that something isn't right with the whole picture. You can have your science, I will take my life experience and COMMON SENSE.



Yes, they DO drink blood; they bite each other until blood is drawn

Exhibit A)

http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/32/l_5747fd82e9c3431a940f4a1299e67220.jpg (at SFTW)

Yeah facts are inconvenient aren't they? I was merely substantiating the point that music labeling is voluntary and is not required by law. I know a bit about the music business and I also remember Frank Zappa's confrontations with Tipper Gore and the PMRC when I was younger. It was on MTV all the time...

As far as the biting thing, I am not impressed. It looks more like a love nibble to me and I don't see much blood there. IME the scalp bleeds a lot if you get a cut.

Iggy Pop used to roll around on broken glass. Now *THAT* is hard core.

 

[Heroine]

Yeah facts are inconvenient aren't they? I was merely substantiating the point that music labeling is voluntary and is not required by law. I know a bit about the music business and I also remember Frank Zappa's confrontations with Tipper Gore and the PMRC when I was younger. It was on MTV all the time...

As far as the biting thing, I am not impressed. It looks more like a love nibble to me and I don't see much blood there. IME the scalp bleeds a lot if you get a cut.

Iggy Pop used to roll around on broken glass. Now *THAT* is hard core.

There are pictures of them getting bitten and bleeding, I have seen them, but I have to remember where and I'll post them when i find them.

 

[Nikolai]

This is a significant point.

Here's some music I like:

YouTube - Rammstein - Laichzeit (Live aus Berlin)


I've got this on a CD in my car, along with my Beethoven, Simon & Garfunkel, X, Violent Femmes, Fiona Apple, Lucinda Williams, and a bunch of other stuff.

In this song the lyrics speak of having sex with your dog. I listen to it, and I don't have sex with my dog. However, if I were to put up a bunch of Myspace sites about having sex with my dog, write songs about having sex with my dog, hang around the band instead of working and talk about having sex with my dog, design websites for other bands that sing about having sex with your dog, and pretty much define my existence in terms of having sex with my dog, if I was then arrested for having sex with my dog it would certainly be reasonable to suggest that there was SOME SORT OF CONNECTION between my actions and the lifestyle I sought out through the expressions in these songs.

The fact that some people are NOT influenced does NOT prove that NONE are.

Sort of like saying "if this information falls into the wrong hands the consequences could be catastrophic," or whatever. I dont think theres any doubt that Sams fascination with this music and lifestyle could have played some part in his decision to murder. Unfortunately theres nothing really to do about it. 99.9% of these people wont kill anyone, and theres no way to know if Sam would have killed one day if not into this music. I dont understand the artists love for this music, it seems redundant and talentless, and just them performing it may prove them to be really weird and bad people. I think pointing the finger of blame for the murders at them though is taking it too far and wrong.

 

[Heroine]

Yes, I get what you are saying, but you as far as music you are poorly informed. Ever heard of Jerry Lee Lewis?

Many bands in many genres of music have befriended and even partied with their underage fans. A friend of mine was the "assistant" of a very famous punk musician and she was maybe 18 or 19 at the time to be generous. I went to high school with a girl (maybe at the age of 16?) that was an exotic dancer for a well known band of that era that will remain nameless. None of this stuff is new at all.

Who cares if any of this stuff is new? That doesn't mean that it's not wrong or right. Why are you stuck on our views of the music and people? Who cares? Everyone has opinions. Opinions are like *advertiser censored**holes, we all have one. We accept each others for just what they are, each others opinions. Instead of just accepting what we have to say as "our opinion" you just seem to want to argue the fact. Why? Not to mention, was this punk band you speak of cult like? Even if they were, did their fans murder people?