VA - Couple & two teens found murdered, Farmville, 15 Sept 2009 #2

[boygenius]

I wonder if any of Sam's family has come across country to visit him yet.

I'm pretty sure they haven't been here yet because I saw an article where his sister said she couldn't wait to come see him and tell him how much she loves him.

 

[ziggy]

I'll say more about my method and the degree to which I believe things I've suggested here in a subsequent posting.

In other news, I have received a copy of the interview with SickTanick in the O.T.O. publication "Doomsayer's Digest" in which he details the method to his madness to some extent. Anyone that thinks this is all a gimmic of some sort is just wrong. And he comes across much more intelligent and educated (at least when talking about music and the occult) than most here would expect.

I will post a detailed analysis later.

Looking forward to it.

 

[ebbie]

Very good point. Some of these posts are quite "6 Degrees of Kevin Bacon-ish" but a good read none the less.

I am 38 and a mother of 3 - I play World of Warcraft. My husband is 40 and he listens to Slipknot and heavy thrash metal. Back in the day, he listened to Judas Priest, Metallica, BOC, and the like. We are upstanding citizens. (Ok, so I'm the crazy cat lady - 5 and one is solid black!!!) The music/gaming is not responsible for this sensless crime. SICKO Sam is. There had to be a few marbles loose up there already in order for a text message to knock them out of the circle.

I recently saw a bumper sticker that said "Guns don't kill people, People kill people" and I automatically thought about this case.

Prayers go out to the remaining family members of this tragedy. rayer:rayer:

Bolded by me.....I am a similar case to you but my upbringing and education was strong enough to give me a clear boundary between fantasy and reality. I even went through a phase where I investigated the concept of Satanism....perhaps because I was raised Catholic and that just seemed like a load of crap. I am so glad I matured out of that time when I searched outward to find something to feel better about myself as opposed to searching inward.

Anyway I can agree with the guns analogy only partially and in a perfect world. What I mean is that just being physically in the vacinity of dangerous things like guns, horrorcore (or similarly violent ideologies) increases our chance of something bad happening.

This may sound silly but for example, would you want want to have your house surrounded by guns lying on the ground? Although you may know not to kill people, you could accidentally kick a gun and it goes off.

The same applies to horrorcore. Most people can distinguish between fantasy, fiction and reality but there are .1% of the population who can't. That small minority views suggestive lyrics and ideas as commands to fit in. When lyrics are saying kill, kill, kill, you are loading the brains of young people who are vulnerable from insecurities with a false reality. Its no different than handing a loaded gun to a child.

 

[Heroine]

I understand your point. Sam's calmness is disconcerting, to say the least. But, if he had planned these murders before he left California then he didn't put a whole lot of thought into it. Flying to Virginia to commit a quadruple homicide is just plain dumb, unless Sam has a death wish. Wouldn't he first check out the state's DP record? Well, I guess that's one in the anti-DP argument column.

I wonder if any of Sam's family has come across country to visit him yet.

I've been wondering about his family coming to see him as well.
It is true that if this was premeditated then it was a pretty stupid move, but the last time I checked, traveling across country and killing 4 people isn't a very sane or moral thing to do either. What I'm trying to say is, if this was premeditated, I really don't think Sam cared about getting caught for whatever reason. Obviously he was ill before he came to VA, wth could make you snap like that? His demeanor during the arrest tape didn't really show me someone who looked scared about being caught for 4 homicides. If that were me being arrested for such a crime I'd be chitting my pants.
The more I read about this case, the more disturbed this boy and the "true family" seem.

 

[wadahoot]

I'm pretty sure they haven't been here yet because I saw an article where his sister said she couldn't wait to come see him and tell him how much she loves him.

I think that quote was from back in the week of Sep 21. I do a search daily on Mark (my husband and I still can't believe he's gone) to check for new info on the case, and every couple of days that quote appears, but is in a Sep article.

 

[asamford23]

Or Led Zeppelin.

They all make an appearance in my unposted Crowley & Music posting. Maybe I'll post it yet.

longtime lurker....

I registered specifically to say thank you, dangrsmind, for your excellent research and analysis in this thread. Whether or not it ends up being a central factor in this case or not, it has definitely made for some fascinating reading.

Anyhow, I would really like to see your writing on Crowley & Music, etc... if you don't want to post it here, maybe you could let me know how I could otherwise get a chance to read it?

Thank you so much!

 

[tapu]

"Juggalo Crime" in spotlight:

http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091016/NEWS01/910169997/-1/news

Published: Friday, October 16, 2009
‘Juggalo' attacks cut broad swath of terror across country



The Nashua Telegraph, of all venues. Right by me. The Mont Vernon murder/attack is near here, too, of course.

 

[tapu]

And from the same source:

http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091016/NEWS01/910169998/-1/XML07

Seems like this may have been the main piece, supplemented by the other listing of arguably "related" murders.

 

[dangrsmind]

And from the same source:

http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091016/NEWS01/910169998/-1/XML07

Seems like this may have been the main piece, supplemented by the other listing of arguably "related" murders.

Hmm. I have to say that these are a very small number of crimes to be called a trend of any sort. Less than 1% of all crimes in the U.S. are committed by juggalos or are related to horrorcore, ICP, et al. Even in urban areas where they have "juggalo problem" this is still true.

In Oakland California there were 124 homicides last year, none of them juggalo related.

 

[gxm]

I've been wondering about his family coming to see him as well.
It is true that if this was premeditated then it was a pretty stupid move, but the last time I checked, traveling across country and killing 4 people isn't a very sane or moral thing to do either. What I'm trying to say is, if this was premeditated, I really don't think Sam cared about getting caught for whatever reason. Obviously he was ill before he came to VA, wth could make you snap like that? His demeanor during the arrest tape didn't really show me someone who looked scared about being caught for 4 homicides. If that were me being arrested for such a crime I'd be chitting my pants.
The more I read about this case, the more disturbed this boy and the "true family" seem.

I actually do agree that Sam has had murder on his mind for a long time, probably years and years. I just don't know that he planned this specific crime before he left California. IMO, it's more likely that he began planning (or fantasizing about) it after the show, on the long drive back to Virginia from Michigan.

 

[tapu]

responding to dangrs, above:

Of course, but from the other perspective, the Juggalo presence in society is in and of itself so very small. That it crops up even in small numbers of crimes is becoming noteworthy.

 

[dangrsmind]

I received a copy of the Doomsayer's Digest (DD) in which SickTanick is interviewed about his music and his magic.

The publication is typical "zine" style publication reproduced in black and white with low quality graphics and text. The cover depicts a fractal object which is "glyph illustrating eternal recursion of circles, triangles, and pentagrams making a up one unicursal".

Some of the other articles in the publication include a rather interesting esoteric discussion of the element carbon with a surprisingly correct discussion of the anthropic principle, a copy of Crowley's "Hymn to Satan", and a very interesting article entitled "The Oath: Invocation of Dissonance" which includes a very good discussion of the use of cognitive dissonance in magic.

First some fun...

The interview appears in Volume 2, Issue 3 (23 get it?) and on page 23. Also this is the fifth issue of the DD and of course in numerological analysis 23 reduces to 5 since 2 + 3 = 5.

The article is entitled, "Interview with Andres of Serial Killin Records by R.C. about Music, Mal-theism, & Magic." SickTanick is interviewed by "R.C." who is one of the senior people in the Albuquerque O.T.O.encampment and also the editor of DD. I assume R.C. is also a reference to the "Rosy Cross." The article is protected by copyright, and therefore I can not reprint it in it's entirety here. I note that quotation as part of an academic analysis is protected fair use however, so here we go...

The overall tone of the interview is quite interesting. I get them impression that R.C. is a very intelligent and knowledgeable about many things and he seems to be taking this opportunity not only to question Shrim about his work but also to teach him something at the same time. I get the impression that Shrim is quite honest and earnest in this interview and I wonder if he noticed what R.C. was doing. Frankly it seems he is trying to impress R.C. probably both to impress a key person in the O.T.O. with his work (he's only recently involved with this group) and perhaps also to get access to the O.T.O./R.C.'s apparently amazing occult library.

R.C. asks some very interesting and on point questions. For example, "So what do you think is the real philosophy or Magical Method of horror core?" Shrim's answers tend to be a bit wandering and lengthy. Therefore I will only post some key excerpts of SickTanick's replies. You'll have to trust that I am not taking things out of context.

"So what do you think is the real philosophy or Magical Method of horror core?"

"Horrorcore to your average artist or listener is taking horror oriented lyrics and putting it in a rap form. To me though, I think horrorcore, the philosophy has a real esoteric meaning."

"I think that with the way that we construct things, it puts together to be an entertaining to the listener as well at the same time that they can really grab some important knowledge."

"Each sound in a beat can trigger something in the mind, combining that with the lyrics that can provoke the listener in one way positive or negative, I think it turn itself into a very Magical thing."


He says he's trying to educate his audience. I find his statements here to be both honest and convincing. He's trying to do something positive for "the kids."

"So your're saying horrocore as a genre of music, especially the way you do it, has a purpose behind it that's positive in a sense, and that you are trying to encourage something that is valuable. What do you think that is?"

"The purpose to me is to provoke the listener into thinking about things."

"The purpose for me personally, especially in my later workings, is Thelema."

"...there's a deep inlaying message to the people that are actually listening to it, they're not just hearing it."

"I like to hide things like that"

"...if I had to say what the overall goal would be, would be to spread occult teachings and the Law of Thelema through different catalysts."


The Law of Thelema:

“Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law”

“Love is the law, love under will.”

I sort of get the impression he is kissing R.C.'s *advertiser censored* here a bit, but I don't have a problem with the Law of Thelema.

R.C. talks a bit about the benefit of using a method that has a sound lineage (this is key idea in Buddhism also) and I wonder if Shrim understood what he was saying here. Then he asks:

"...my question is that if God killed himself and all Christians got away from Christiandom and you had no more religions to oppose, then what would horrorcore have to talk about?"

"I think that no matter what there is always knowledge to be obtained from the darker side of life"

"If it's not God, it's the government, if it's not the government it's their parents."

R.C. replies with a brief mention of the Jungian perspective (i.e. The Shadow) which it seems he is trying to indicate to Shrim should have been the correct answer to this question. After rereading this, I'm not sure Shrim has thought about this "what if you won" scenario at all previously.

(to be continued...)

 

[dangrsmind]

responding to dangrs, above:

Of course, but from the other perspective, the Juggalo presence in society is in and of itself so very small. That it crops up even in small numbers of crimes is becoming noteworthy.

I have to disagree here.

I think what is noteworthy is that people are talking about it, not how many "juggalo crimes" there are. In fact the number of crimes mentioned here is insignificant say when compared to the number of crimes associated with "poverty" or specific ethnic groups.

But yes, you are correct in that there are not that many juggalos in the population at large so one has to adjust for the population size to understand the trend. Since no one has any idea how many juggalos there are, it is impossible to do this. Therefore the entire discussion of any sort of juggalo related crime wave or trend is not a scientific analysis but rather an emotional reaction to a small number of high profile events.

 

[dangrsmind]

longtime lurker....

I registered specifically to say thank you, dangrsmind, for your excellent research and analysis in this thread. Whether or not it ends up being a central factor in this case or not, it has definitely made for some fascinating reading.

Anyhow, I would really like to see your writing on Crowley & Music, etc... if you don't want to post it here, maybe you could let me know how I could otherwise get a chance to read it?

Thank you so much!

You are welcome, and thank you. I will probably post this in the next day or two time permitting, with apologies to those who are not interested in such esoterica.

 

[tapu]

I have to disagree here.

I think what is noteworthy is that people are talking about it, not how many "juggalo crimes" there are. In fact the number of crimes mentioned here is insignificant say when compared to the number of crimes associated with "poverty" or specific ethnic groups.

But yes, you are correct in that there are not that many juggalos in the population at large so one has to adjust for the population size to understand the trend. Since no one has any idea how many juggalos there are, it is impossible to do this. Therefore the entire discussion of any sort of juggalo related crime wave or trend is not a scientific analysis but rather an emotional reaction to a small number of high profile events.

I see what you're saying, and ultimately it comes back around to the fact that it's someplace for a researcher, with more time than we've got (er, with more time than I've got, certainly, I'm not so certain about yourself), to go to identify and explore and draw conclusions about anything they find.

Two points though: 1) crimes associated with ethnic groups, poverty, etc., already existed-- this could be something new popping up its ugly little head; and 2), this is the sort of thing that might come out about some other phenom and would lend itself to exploration, as if, for example, someone noted that suddenly a bunch of murders were committed by morons hyped up on massive amounts of Red Bull. Worth wondering about, I'd think....

 

[tapu]

Some interesting sustained discussion on what seems to be a Xtian blog here:

http://blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/2009/09/bad-parenting-and-the-horrorco_comments.html

Mostly about the role of Emma's parents. I find that aspect more interesting than the magickal mystery tour we've enjoyed here. But don't get me wrong--I like reading all of it.

 

[dangrsmind]

Some interesting sustained discussion on what seems to be a Xtian blog here:

http://blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/2009/09/bad-parenting-and-the-horrorco_comments.html

Mostly about the role of Emma's parents. I find that aspect more interesting than the magickal mystery tour we've enjoyed here. But don't get me wrong--I like reading all of it.

What is interesting to me is how many of the people involved with horrorcore seem to come from strict Christian backgrounds. I think some of the posters at that site are ignorant of this fact.

I don't think we have enough information to judge the parent's decision in this matter fully, although obviously in hindsight letting McCroskey into their life was a mistake. As far as the rest, they had Emma in counseling and were trying to supervise her as best they could. The poster called "Observer" there knows what they are talking about, some others less so.

Editted to add:

Re magical mystery tours, amusingly the SickTanick O.T.O. interview ends with the folloWing transcriber's note:

"sounds of flames -- whaling noise like carpenter being eaten by walrus -- nothing"

 

[tapu]

Those damn Beatles again! Charlie was right.....

 

[wadahoot]

Some interesting sustained discussion on what seems to be a Xtian blog here:
http://blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/2009/09/bad-parenting-and-the-horrorco_comments.html
Mostly about the role of Emma's parents.

There was a good (and a bit imflamatory) conversation on this link on the first thread about this case http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4201631&highlight=beliefnet#post4201631 Post #280 had the link, and the rest of that page and the next jump into the discussion.

(not pointing fingers at you, Tapu, for posting the link, but just steering newer readers of this thread to the comments already made)

This is the topic that is SO upsetting to my husband and I, since we knew Mark. (see http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4260287&postcount=79 and http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4263805&postcount=109 to see what I'm saying). As the parent of a 21 year old boy (yes, he's still a boy ... to me!), I just can't point fingers too hard at Mark and Debra. I especially get tired of reading (especially from the Christian right) that Mark should have done something else to protect the family. Just because someone is a preacher doesn't mean they have super-human powers ... they are human just like us, trying our best to be parents in a difficult time and place. Sorry, just spouting off now ... I'm irked! :silenced:

eta: has anyone heard from Pixy? I'm concerned for her and her children's well-being.

 

[tapu]

Oh, yes, thanks. I guess I missed that the first time through. I do remember your remarks about Mark's background, which gave good insight into what was possibly his take on the whole scene.

I was thinking about PiXy, too. I hope she's finding her way through things all right.


--tap