VA - Couple & two teens found murdered, Farmville, 15 Sept 2009 #3

[Heroine]

...that's what I'm thinking about the drive too,he just went for a ride....maybe he didn't have keys to emma's mom car and I don't know if emma had a car....

I don't know though, if I had just murdered 4 people, I'm not sure I'd be driving around for a joy ride especially in one of my victims cars, then there are more chances of getting caught. If I were going to go for a drive it better be for a good reason.

 

[blouAngel]

Sure it is possible, but remember the reason the police were out on Poorhouse Road was because there was a suspicious vehicle reported. If he had just driven past, no one would have reported it.

The police were out on Poorhouse Road because Sam got himself stuck. On a country road at night, it's very easy to both see and hear cars a fairly long distance away. The place where he got stuck has several houses close together and is largely cleared of trees.

It seems very likely that because of the relatively large number of driveways to choose from he found an opportunity to turn around that he thought was good enough to try or he found himself encountering more houses than he expected and decided to go back. There were two other roads between 460 and the end of Poorhouse that would have been much better choices for activities that needed to be hidden. He may have been returning to investigate.

I think any theory that puts him out there on purpose for some particular reason attributes navigational skills to him that I just think are unlikely unless he happened to have GPS in the car. He had no license, so not likely an experienced driver, he's in a car that's new to him, it's very dark, he's hardly ever even ridden around town before, let alone gone down that road. Hard to imagine that equals complete knowledge and control over where he is.

I think either he was trying to make the police look foolish, something many serial killers try to do, or he wanted to kill another person preferably a man. Since that is exactly what he ended up doing, I am going to favor the latter theory over the former.

Pastor Neiderbrock was already dead at that point.

 

[tapu]

I don't know, Blou, he would be up on google maps and such, so if he was looking for a dumping site, that would explain how he could find and navigate to such a place.

 

[blouAngel]

No doubt he could look at Google maps. Translating that to correctly arriving at an intended destination can be quite another thing, especially in the dark, especially when he's very likely to be an inexperienced driver. Even if he had a printout, he'd have a hard time seeing it.

 

[dangrsmind]

The police were out on Poorhouse Road because Sam got himself stuck. On a country road at night, it's very easy to both see and hear cars a fairly long distance away. The place where he got stuck has several houses close together and is largely cleared of trees.

It seems very likely that because of the relatively large number of driveways to choose from he found an opportunity to turn around that he thought was good enough to try or he found himself encountering more houses than he expected and decided to go back. There were two other roads between 460 and the end of Poorhouse that would have been much better choices for activities that needed to be hidden. He may have been returning to investigate.

I think any theory that puts him out there on purpose for some particular reason attributes navigational skills to him that I just think are unlikely unless he happened to have GPS in the car. He had no license, so not likely an experienced driver, he's in a car that's new to him, it's very dark, he's hardly ever even ridden around town before, let alone gone down that road. Hard to imagine that equals complete knowledge and control over where he is.




Pastor Neiderbrock was already dead at that point.

Maybe I am being unclear or I am confused, but I believe he called the police to house before the killing of Emma's father. By the time McCrosky went out to Poorhouse Road he was of course dead.

I examined the Google street view of this area and I find it pretty implausible that someone would choose to drive down that road by chance or by error. I guess others disagree. I imagine we'll find out eventually.

 

[dangrsmind]

No doubt he could look at Google maps. Translating that to correctly arriving at an intended destination can be quite another thing, especially in the dark, especially when he's very likely to be an inexperienced driver. Even if he had a printout, he'd have a hard time seeing it.

If he didn't scout the area on Google maps, he might have just been looking for what looked like a remote area. Again, IMO, the entrance to that road form the 460 doesn't look at all like a well traveled road and if he was just trying to turn around and head back to town he could have done so with out turning on Poorhouse Road at all. It is not a freeway and there are numerous turning points.

 

[blouAngel]

Maybe I am being unclear or I am confused, but I believe he called the police to house before the killing of Emma's father. By the time McCrosky went out to Poorhouse Road he was of course dead.

I examined the Google street view of this area and I find it pretty implausible that someone would choose to drive down that road by chance or by error. I guess others disagree. I imagine we'll find out eventually.

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/local/crime/article/FARM27G1_20090926-195801/295730/

Thursday, Sept. 17, afternoon: Wells' mother calls Mark Niederbrock about 2 or 2:30 p.m. to say she's concerned about her daughter and can't reach her. Niederbrock tells his own mother he's going to check on them at Kelley's house.
Sept. 17, 11:58 p.m.: A Farmville police officer goes to the Kelley home to check on Wells after her mother can't reach her. McCroskey answers the door and tells the officer that Wells is at the movies.
Friday, Sept. 18, 12:58 a.m.: McCroskey calls police to say he hears something in the basement and wants someone to check it. Two officers arrive, and he lets them into the basement. They find the basement is covered with animal feces; they leave without suspicion.
Sept. 18, 4:20 a.m.: A Prince Edward County sheriff's deputy tickets McCroskey for driving without a license after he gets a car stuck in a ditch. Authorities later learn the car belonged to Mark Niederbrock. A tow-truck driver takes McCroskey to a nearby Sheetz convenience store.

I suspect we'll never know why McCroskey was out there.

 

[porpoise]

I think we've gotten a little far afield from the original timeline! We don't know for sure, but the two girls and Emma's mom were probably all killed overnight on either Mon/Tues or Tues/Wed nights or early morning. Emma's dad came out to check on the house on Thursday afternoon (this is pretty well-timed). A single local police officer came out to the house at around 11 on Thursday evening to check up on things in response to the call from Mel's mother. An hour later, near midnight on Thursday evening, Sam called the police himself and two officers came out and checked the basement:

Maybe I am being unclear or I am confused, but I believe he called the police to house before the killing of Emma's father. By the time McCroskey went out to Poorhouse Road he was of course dead.

Yes; Emma's dad was already dead by the time of both police visits (which were separated by only an hour or two). Four hours later, Sam had to be pulled from the ditch on Poorhouse Road; the tow truck driver dropped him off downtown and he had breakfast before calling for the ride to the Richmond airport.

I like simpler theories more than complicated ones (Occam's razor). Sam got mad and killed Emma and Mel. Then he "had" to kill Emma's mom to avoid getting discovered. At this point, he doesn't have enough money to get to the airport (without a car; and perhaps Emma's mom has the van keys hidden or locked away to prevent joyriding) and also pay a change ticket charge. (He's not the most sophisticated of kids, and may not understand or have overdraft privileges, know about flying standby, etc.)

At this point, I think he's a freaked out and scared kid who realizes he's done something very, very bad but has no money and no plan, beyond a return ticket that he can't use until Sunday morning. It's really only a day or two between time of the first three murders and Emma's dad's arrival; but, after killing Emma's dad and hearing phones in house ringing (the calls from Mel's family), he just gets more freaked out and scared - though still able to turn first officer away with a calm enough explanation about the girls' absence to avoid having first officer enter the house, ask for the mother, etc. But, now he's more and more freaked, is hearing noises, and perhaps just calls the police out of real fear - of what, he doesn't really know (c.f., Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment).

Shortly thereafter, he realizes that he might be able to find Emma's dad's car keys and use the father's car to get to the airport. Still no real well-formed plan, but at least he's on his way out of town. Unfortunately for him, it's a dark night (no moonlight whatsoever, new moon that month is Friday 9/18) and he is an inexperienced driver on dark and unfamiliar roads. He makes the bad turn off 460 onto Poorhouse, realizes his error after a mile or so, tries to turn the car around and gets stuck in the ditch. He could have been in the ditch by 2:00; that could have triggered the suspicious vehicle call, while still taking awhile for someone to notice the car, call police, and police and tow truck to arrive.

This is how I read what we know so far ...

 

[gxm]

Maybe I am being unclear or I am confused, but I believe he called the police to house before the killing of Emma's father. By the time McCrosky went out to Poorhouse Road he was of course dead.

I examined the Google street view of this area and I find it pretty implausible that someone would choose to drive down that road by chance or by error. I guess others disagree. I imagine we'll find out eventually.

That's what I thought too, because the initial reports were very confusing and the media even misstated some of the dates (probably typos). The way I now understand it, Mel's dad drove to Farmville on Wednesday to pick her up. No one answered the door and he waited around there for many hours (all day, IIRC). I think it's odd that Sam didn't answer the door, but maybe that was the day he was out walking around town and shopping.

The pastor showed up on Thursday afternoon, and I suppose we can assume that he was murdered shortly after he arrived at the house. Why kill the pastor and not Mel's dad? I can only guess that since Emma's dad had a key, he may have let himself into the house. Or perhaps Sam did answer the door. We just don't know.

So, if the current timeline is accurate, the pastor was probably dead when the cops arrived shortly before midnight on Thursday. Why on earth Sam would call them back an hour later is the big mystery. If the rumor is true that he asked for the same cop, then I think he may have wanted to eliminate another witness. But that is, of course, pure speculation based on unconfirmed information.

It's frustrating. When the heck are we going to get some NEWS on this case? Shouldn't there at least be some court dates coming up?

 

[gxm]

I think we've gotten a little far afield from the original timeline! We don't know for sure, but the two girls and Emma's mom were probably all killed overnight on either Mon/Tues or Tues/Wed nights or early morning. Emma's dad came out to check on the house on Thursday afternoon (this is pretty well-timed). A single local police officer came out to the house at around 11 on Thursday evening to check up on things in response to the call from Mel's mother. An hour later, near midnight on Thursday evening, Sam called the police himself and two officers came out and checked the basement:



Yes; Emma's dad was already dead by the time of both police visits (which were separated by only an hour or two). Four hours later, Sam had to be pulled from the ditch on Poorhouse Road; the tow truck driver dropped him off downtown and he had breakfast before calling for the ride to the Richmond airport.

I like simpler theories more than complicated ones (Occam's razor). Sam got mad and killed Emma and Mel. Then he "had" to kill Emma's mom to avoid getting discovered. At this point, he doesn't have enough money to get to the airport (without a car; and perhaps Emma's mom has the van keys hidden or locked away to prevent joyriding) and also pay a change ticket charge. (He's not the most sophisticated of kids, and may not understand or have overdraft privileges, know about flying standby, etc.)

At this point, I think he's a freaked out and scared kid who realizes he's done something very, very bad but has no money and no plan, beyond a return ticket that he can't use until Sunday morning. It's really only a day or two between time of the first three murders and Emma's dad's arrival; but, after killing Emma's dad and hearing phones in house ringing (the calls from Mel's family), he just gets more freaked out and scared - though still able to turn first officer away with a calm enough explanation about the girls' absence to avoid having first officer enter the house, ask for the mother, etc. But, now he's more and more freaked, is hearing noises, and perhaps just calls the police out of real fear - of what, he doesn't really know (c.f., Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment).

Shortly thereafter, he realizes that he might be able to find Emma's dad's car keys and use the father's car to get to the airport. Still no real well-formed plan, but at least he's on his way out of town. Unfortunately for him, it's a dark night (no moonlight whatsoever, new moon that month is Friday 9/18) and he is an inexperienced driver on dark and unfamiliar roads. He makes the bad turn off 460 onto Poorhouse, realizes his error after a mile or so, tries to turn the car around and gets stuck in the ditch. He could have been in the ditch by 2:00; that could have triggered the suspicious vehicle call, while still taking awhile for someone to notice the car, call police, and police and tow truck to arrive.

This is how I read what we know so far ...

Great summary. I'm pretty much in agreement.

And welcome to the board!

 

[tapu]

Yeah, great summary. I kind of leave open the possibility that he might have scouted a dump site on Poorhouse Rd, though.

If we don't get some details on this case, Heroine or someone may have to pour water over my head.


And, welcome, Porpoise.

 

[dangrsmind]

That's what I thought too, because the initial reports were very confusing and the media even misstated some of the dates (probably typos). The way I now understand it, Mel's dad drove to Farmville on Wednesday to pick her up. No one answered the door and he waited around there for many hours (all day, IIRC). I think it's odd that Sam didn't answer the door, but maybe that was the day he was out walking around town and shopping.

The pastor showed up on Thursday afternoon, and I suppose we can assume that he was murdered shortly after he arrived at the house. Why kill the pastor and not Mel's dad? I can only guess that since Emma's dad had a key, he may have let himself into the house. Or perhaps Sam did answer the door. We just don't know.

So, if the current timeline is accurate, the pastor was probably dead when the cops arrived shortly before midnight on Thursday. Why on earth Sam would call them back an hour later is the big mystery. If the rumor is true that he asked for the same cop, then I think he may have wanted to eliminate another witness. But that is, of course, pure speculation based on unconfirmed information.

It's frustrating. When the heck are we going to get some NEWS on this case? Shouldn't there at least be some court dates coming up?

Supposedly there are supposed to be capital charges filed next week.

As far as the timeline, I don't have anything that puts the pastor there at a specific time but he did talk to Well's mother earlier in the day, just before noon, and since the police visited the house late that evening it seems like you are right and he was probably dead long before this. I had written the timeline wrong originally since my notes indicate that he had called the police at 12:58 p.m (close to the time the paster talked to Well's mother) instead of 12:58 a.m. as I see now in reviewing the news reports. Likely just my error, but there may have been typos in the original reports idk.

Reviewing the timeline, I note that he didn't leave town for about four hours after the incident on Poorhouse Road. Seems like stopping to have breakfast in town is kind of a weird choice if he was really trying to escape, but maybe he was just trying to figure out what to do next.

See http://www2.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/local/crime/article/FARM27G1_20090926-195801/295730/

 

[blouAngel]

I like simpler theories more than complicated ones (Occam's razor). Sam got mad and killed Emma and Mel. Then he "had" to kill Emma's mom to avoid getting discovered. At this point, he doesn't have enough money to get to the airport (without a car; and perhaps Emma's mom has the van keys hidden or locked away to prevent joyriding) and also pay a change ticket charge. (He's not the most sophisticated of kids, and may not understand or have overdraft privileges, know about flying standby, etc.)

At this point, I think he's a freaked out and scared kid who realizes he's done something very, very bad but has no money and no plan, beyond a return ticket that he can't use until Sunday morning.

I'm with you. It's possible there were other things going on, but I just don't see Sam as sophisticated. I don't think he's dumb though.

One thing that I think has been lacking to some extent in this conversation is a good summary of what Sam knows at various points along the timeline. What he knows has to have been guiding what he was doing to some extent. I've been up all night and I'm off to sleep, but maybe someone else can add to what I've got here. Oh, and what a nightmare of tenses I've created with my hasty writing.

He's in the house, with at least one person who he's alleged to have killed and a couple of other bodies that got there somehow. (innocent until proven guilty mind you) He knows the parents of one girl are still looking for her, calling for her, and have even spent several hours waiting for her. They aren't likely to stop. There's a dead pastor in the house, who is likely to have someone come looking for him. The police have come by and he can't keep telling them the girls are at a movie forever, it being already pretty late for that. (What he knows has to be an influence on why he calls the police back, I think it is a poor and hasty, but rationalized choice based on the facts he's surrounded with) The pastor's car is sitting in the driveway, which would make it pretty hard to deny he had been there if someone else came asking for him. Things are closing in. I don't see anyone but the most level headed person, who of course wouldn't have been in such a situation, making a clear series of choices about what to do next. None of his plans were likely to be thought out and were probably constantly evolving as facts before him changed.

I've been trying to edit that to be a little clearer, but no go for now. My aim is to ask what we come up with when we try to see what he did as rational based on facts he is certainly aware of and most likely pondering. Dumb is not necessarily the same thing as irrational.

 

[blouAngel]

Seems like stopping to have breakfast in town is kind of a weird choice if he was really trying to escape, but maybe he was just trying to figure out what to do next.

That's why I believe he may have been headed out of town for good when he got stuck. Seems like if he had unfinished business back at the house he would have attended to it first.

 

[blouAngel]

Ok, so I just said Sam wasn't dumb and then called him dumb. That's how I know it's bedtime.

ciao

 

[dangrsmind]

I'm with you. It's possible there were other things going on, but I just don't see Sam as sophisticated. I don't think he's dumb though.

One thing that I think has been lacking to some extent in this conversation is a good summary of what Sam knows at various points along the timeline. What he knows has to have been guiding what he was doing to some extent. I've been up all night and I'm off to sleep, but maybe someone else can add to what I've got here. Oh, and what a nightmare of tenses I've created with my hasty writing.

He's in the house, with at least one person who he's alleged to have killed and a couple of other bodies that got there somehow. (innocent until proven guilty mind you) He knows the parents of one girl are still looking for her, calling for her, and have even spent several hours waiting for her. They aren't likely to stop. There's a dead pastor in the house, who is likely to have someone come looking for him. The police have come by and he can't keep telling them the girls are at a movie forever, it being already pretty late for that. (What he knows has to be an influence on why he calls the police back, I think it is a poor and hasty, but rationalized choice based on the facts he's surrounded with) The pastor's car is sitting in the driveway, which would make it pretty hard to deny he had been there if someone else came asking for him. Things are closing in. I don't see anyone but the most level headed person, who of course wouldn't have been in such a situation, making a clear series of choices about what to do next. None of his plans were likely to be thought out and were probably constantly evolving as facts before him changed.

I've been trying to edit that to be a little clearer, but no go for now. My aim is to ask what we come up with when we try to see what he did as rational based on facts he is certainly aware of and most likely pondering. Dumb is not necessarily the same thing as irrational.

I agree with this approach.

One thing he knows right from the very first moment after he's killed his first victim is that he is going to go to jail if he gets caught. It does not take 24 or 48 hours for this information to become available to him.

Possibly he's stunned by the import of what he's done and can't think for a while, idk. I think this will be made clear once we know some more about the crime scene and whether he had anything relevant to the crime in the car with him out on Poorhouse Road.

 

[ziggy]

For me the three very odd things I can't wrap my head around are:

1) The pastor is dead when police visit the home - supposedly he was killed in a different part of the house? Well, it wasn't in the doorway unless there was a pretty spotless clean up and Sam doesn't strike me as the spotless type. The layout of the home would be interesting...what rooms must you go through to get to the basement door? Where did he put the pastor's body? All we know is that it was found in a different location than the females.

3) Why, if he escaped being noticed the first time a cop came to the house and he's got 4 dead bodies in there, he calls the police on his own to risk them coming to the house - again with 4 dead bodies inside. The only thing that makes sense to me is that he intended to kill the solo skinny officer. I don't think he was really scared. I mean seriously if you hear noises in the basement, get the wood maul and check it out. Animals in the basement would have made noises so why would he even think it was anything other? I can't help but get the horror movie image out of my mind that people who check out the basement get killed either from behind going down the stairs (my vote because then they tumble to the bottom) or some other means. IDK.

2) Poorhouse road. Perhaps he was looking for a secluded place within walking distance to ditch the pastor's car. Possibly he realized the roads intersecting on Poorhouse were too populated with homes.

But then, if he was going to ditch the car, how was he planning to get to the airport? At the time he went onto Poorhouse, was he packed and ready to fly back to CA? Did he just leave his luggage or bag or whatever he brought with him at the Kelly house? He had to have brought some additional clothing for the trip, maybe a razor, hopefully deoderant :0 Was going to the airport just Plan B because the car got stuck?

Poorhouse road is a big mystery. Unlikely he thought that was the way to the airport AND the car was out there long enough driving around to be noticed by a resident.

 

[peace_gurl]

Take the car where, that's my question.

The thing is, once he had the car, he could have driven right to the airport and used the money he had in his account to change his flight. If he didn't have enough, he could have flown stand by. But this is not what he did.

Instead of trying to leave town he drove out to Poorhouse Road. Why? And it seems to me that he wasn't in any hurry to leave town until after the Poorhouse Road incident. Even then he stopped to have breakfast first.

He had to stop and have breakfast first because he had to wait for a cab to travel from Charlottesville to Farmville. No cabs in Farmville. It is about a hour to hour and half wait. : ) I think driving a car could have been more of a challenge than he thought.

 

[peace_gurl]

He couldn't fly standby?

I don't think he was bored. Quite the opposite. And I expect this will be clear once we learn a bit more about the conditions at the crime scene.

I Agree

 

[dangrsmind]

He had to stop and have breakfast first because he had to wait for a cab to travel from Charlottesville to Farmville. No cabs in Farmville. It is about a hour to hour and half wait. : ) I think driving a car could have been more of a challenge than he thought.

Right. I wondered about why he called a cab from so far away. This explains it.