VA - Couple & two teens found murdered, Farmville, 15 Sept 2009 #4

[PAXIMUS]

I'm so happy to see you back Paximus!!! Today truly has been a delightful day! Wish they were all like this. :Jumpie::thumb::applause:
peacegurl I ended up having a few things to do myself and never made it. As she said, sorry guys.

GOOD to see my favorite Heroine again too!:crazy:

...because he's a guy and that's what guys do....especially guys with low self esteem..

Hey not ALL of us!:crazy:

And oh yeah, Pax is back!

Ay-yay!!

A misst ye sae muckle!

Here's a link to the comment that mentioned Sam's dad didn't want him to come home.

He was really happy when he was going to go to VA to meet Ragdoll. I remember chatting with him before he left.
His parents wouldnt drive him to the air port which upset him i know and i know his father told him not to come back home if he went to VA
Sounds twiztid but i guess his dad got his wish." is in the paragraph right after Here are a some quotes from Pixy that I found interesting and/or useful:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Four People Murdered in VA College Town #3


It could have been mentioned in the news too but this is the comment I remembered.

*****

And welcome back Pax! Whew, you gave us all quite a scare.

You bet, good to be back!

ITA. Sam probably wasn't in love with Emma but I do think he thought she was really into him and that he had a lot invested in the relationship and that's why he reacted to her rejection with rage.

I am not sure I agree, I think Sam may have been a virgin and was quite head over heels in regard to Emma, she was pretty, witty and popular and everything he always wanted in a girl, I remember being a 15 year old boy, which is about what Sam's mentality was I believe and being in love its a very overwhelming feeling at that age and all you think about but of course I would never kill because it. As for the dating sites I dont know what he was thinking there....maybe just keeping his bases covered. But I do think he was definitely head over heels with Emma.


Which reminds me of a good song to get that god-awful horrorcore stuff out of our heads:

Tears for Fears

I wanted to be with you alone and talk about the weather
But traditions I can trace against the child in your face
Won't escape my attention
You keep your distance with a system of touch and gentle persuasion
I'm lost in admiration, could I need you this much
Oh, you're wasting my time, you're just, just, just wasting time

Something happens and I'm head over heels
I never find out till I'm head over heels
Something happens and I'm head over heels
Ah, don't take my heart, don't break my heart
Don't, don't, don't throw it away (Throw it away...Throw it away...)

I made a fire and watching it burn (yeah) Thought of your future
With one foot in the past now just how long will it last
No, no, no, have you no ambitions, oh (What's the matter with...)
My mother and my brothers used to breathing clean air
(Nothing ever changes when you're acting your age)
And dreaming I'm a doctor
(Nothing gets done when you feel like a baby)
It's hard to be man when there's a gun in your hand.
(Nothing ever changes when you're acting your age) Oh, I feel so…

Something happens and I'm head over heels
I never find out till I'm head over heels
Something happens and I'm head over heels
Ah, don't take my heart, don't break my heart
Don't, don't, don't throw it away

And this is my four leaf clover
I'm on the line, one open mind, this is my four leaf clover

 

[dangrsmind]

If you really need to watch Rimer's spiel you can check this out:

YouTube- Don Rimer

 

[PAXIMUS]

Pax! Welcome back!

Too bad no one went to heckle Rimer, because the Farmville Town council were all there and they were listening to him:

"This is all about education. This is awareness and recognition about all of these behaviors, and the crimes associated with them," Rimer said, although he was quick to point out that not all people associated with Satanism and the occult are violent criminals.

His four-hour talk drew a diverse crowd to Farmville, where Longwood professor Debra S. Kelley, 53; her estranged husband, Mark Niederbrock, 50; their daughter, Emma Niederbrock, 16; and Melanie Wells, 18, Emma's friend from Inwood, W.Va., were found bludgeoned to death Sept. 18 in Kelley's home.

...

While the instructional talk was aimed at educating community members about different religions, it had other purposes, too. "It's about healing and understanding," said Nancy Haga, a church member.
Wanda Whitus said the September slayings served as a wake-up call to the community. "This is really happening in our society," she said.
Several members of the Farmville Town Council attended Rimer's presentation. Councilman David Whitus said he was unfamiliar with some of these subcultures before the September killings, and he attended to learn more.

Rimer didn't specifically address the Farmville killings, but he discussed the growing group called the Juggalos, followers of the horrorcore rap group Insane Clown Posse. Two Juggalos were charged in last month's slaying of a New Hampshire woman who was killed with a machete and knife.

From: http://www2.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/local/article/FARM16_20091115-221607/305945/

Four hours? And he didn't discuss the crimes at all?

I would die to hear what he said about Juggalos as I have been reading a lot about ICP at your suggestion and indeed do see something very unique and enlightening there, it is actually all done very well and I am sure Rimer didnt talk about that!

Watching that video above again just tells me Rimer has no idea what he is talking about, he is a biased Christian fundamentalist AND THAT IS OK but its not a position one can be in and be objective about this subject matter.

 

[dangrsmind]

I would die to hear what he said about Juggalos as I have been reading a lot about ICP at your suggestion and indeed do see something very unique and enlightening there, it is actually all done very well and I am sure Rimer didnt talk about that!

Watching that video above again just tells me Rimer has no idea what he is talking about, he is a biased Christian fundamentalist AND THAT IS OK but its not a position one can be in and be objective about this subject matter.

The truth pervades even the most perverse philosophies Pax.

Rimer is just trying to stir up a witch hunt here IMO. He's abandoned even the pretext that he is in Farmville to solve or understand this crime that's for sure.

 

[AndresEscobar]

RE Lizette's name: I stick with my original reading, from the audiotape: Moreno. I'm not sure, but I think, like Wadahoot, that we then established that was it through internet connections. Did something come up to bring that into question?


Hey, guys, about the inheritance thing. First, I'm pretty sure Debra would have had a will. With a kid, real estate, presumably retirement/investments, I can't imagine she wouldn't have.

Her will, post-divorce, would likely leave everything to Emma, in trust to Mark. At this point, order of death would come in, I think. If Mark died last, and we're guessing he did, it went to him but then goes to his heir. That would have been Emma and Debra presumably, but they died first. So now it goes to Mark's nearest relative, which would be a living parent, then a sibling, and then someone more distantly related. The same applies if Debra died, then Emma died, then Mark. Mark would inherit through Emma, who wouldn't have had a will. NOW, if Emma died, then Debra died, and Mark was only trustee, it might have moved along Debra's family line, but I'd guess Mark was an heir of Debra, because that's how you usually do it when you're amicably divorced and your kid together is a minor.

At least that's how I'd see it playing out.

A few things: People only have heirs if they die intestate (without a will). People named in wills are usually called beneficiaries. This is important because the issue of the owner of the property isn't readily apparent and is therefore extremely complicated.

There are a few issues here. First, whether the Debra and Mark were divorced or merely separated. Second, whether Debra has a will. Third, how this will was written and whether it was updated after the divorce. Fourth, how the home was owned solely by Debra, or was it owned by Debra and mark as cotenants or joint tenants with right of survivorship. This is all murky legal issues that gives me law school flashbacks. (Really. This is a perfect example of a law school property final question).

All of these things are either unknown or unknowable.

Debra and Mark are generally referred to as "estranged". This means separated to me. They maybe have been everything but legally divorced, but if the papers weren't through, the divorce was not final . . .

A lot of people don't have wills. Furthermore, a lot of people don't have overly complicated wills imagining the near simultaneous deaths of their children. My parents didn't have a will until I wrote it.

"Order of death" is technically how these things are supposed to work, but in general when its impossible to figure out who died first (as in the indication in this case, it's been implied by sources that they may never figure out who died first) it can create issues. Usually, the treat them as having died exactly the same time. However, the only way to solve that would be litigation.

The simplest resolution would be to treat Debra as intestate with her supposed beneficiaries deceased. However, if Debra and Mark owned the house together, there are obvious issues with this.

The question is: would some Mark's parents, with alleged knowledge of his will and Debra's will, bring suit to challenge this in order to gain property ownership? Maybe.

 

[AndresEscobar]

The truth pervades even the most perverse philosophies Pax.

Rimer is just trying to stir up a witch hunt here IMO. He's abandoned even the pretext that he is in Farmville to solve or understand this crime that's for sure.

Of course he is. That way, he gets to make money and promote his ideology.

 

[tapu]

A few things: People only have heirs if they die intestate (without a will). People named in wills are usually called beneficiaries. This is important because the issue of the owner of the property isn't readily apparent and is therefore extremely complicated.

There are a few issues here. First, whether the Debra and Mark were divorced or merely separated. Second, whether Debra has a will. Third, how this will was written and whether it was updated after the divorce. Fourth, how the home was owned solely by Debra, or was it owned by Debra and mark as cotenants or joint tenants with right of survivorship. This is all murky legal issues that gives me law school flashbacks. (Really. This is a perfect example of a law school property final question).

All of these things are either unknown or unknowable.

Debra and Mark are generally referred to as "estranged". This means separated to me. They maybe have been everything but legally divorced, but if the papers weren't through, the divorce was not final . . .

A lot of people don't have wills. Furthermore, a lot of people don't have overly complicated wills imagining the near simultaneous deaths of their children. My parents didn't have a will until I wrote it.

"Order of death" is technically how these things are supposed to work, but in general when its impossible to figure out who died first (as in the indication in this case, it's been implied by sources that they may never figure out who died first) it can create issues. Usually, the treat them as having died exactly the same time. However, the only way to solve that would be litigation.

The simplest resolution would be to treat Debra as intestate with her supposed beneficiaries deceased. However, if Debra and Mark owned the house together, there are obvious issues with this.

The question is: would some Mark's parents, with alleged knowledge of his will and Debra's will, bring suit to challenge this in order to gain property ownership? Maybe.

Er, yeah. All that, too. I think, though, since we can assume Mark died last, that you end up pretty much the same place I did: the most likely outcome being that Mark's parents, if living, get the house.

 

[tapu]

The truth pervades even the most perverse philosophies Pax.

Rimer is just trying to stir up a witch hunt here IMO. He's abandoned even the pretext that he is in Farmville to solve or understand this crime that's for sure.

I would not want to be a disillusioned teenager in Farmville these days. I guess one thing you could do would be to brighten up your wardrobe. (Though that would kill ME.)

 

[AndresEscobar]

Er, yeah. All that, too. I think, though, since we can assume Mark died last, that you end up pretty much the same place I did: the most likely outcome being that Mark's parents, if living, get the house.

Yeah, its nightmare. If Debra didn't have a will, her parents get the house. In the event Mark is a beneficiary of the will, his parents probably get the house (if they're still alive). If he's not a beneficiary, Debra's parent's get the house. If they owned the house together as cotenants, they'll both own part interest in the house. If they own it as joint tenants, Mark's parents get the house.

 

[tapu]

Yeah, its nightmare. If Debra didn't have a will, her parents get the house. In the event Mark is a beneficiary of the will, his parents probably get the house (if they're still alive). If he's not a beneficiary, Debra's parent's get the house. If they owned the house together as cotenants, they'll both own part interest in the house. If they own it as joint tenants, Mark's parents get the house.

Well, except, if they aren't legally divorced, and I agree with you that it sounds like they are not, then Mark inherited the house, free and clear, when Debra died.

 

[AndresEscobar]

Well, except, if they aren't legally divorced, and I agree with you that it sounds like they are not, then Mark inherited the house, free and clear, when Debra died.

Yes. Of course, that depends on how the probate courts decide this. A lot depends on 1. whether Mark has a beneficiary to his will or an heir, 2. whether they owned the house together and how.

 

[tapu]

Yes. Of course, that depends on how the probate courts decide this. A lot depends on 1. whether Mark has a beneficiary to his will or an heir, 2. whether they owned the house together and how.

I hate to belabor this... though I guess I am (bear with, everybody)... but a spouse doesn't automatically inherit the other's entire estate?? Must be a state thing then.... You sure do here. And in Mass.

 

[AndresEscobar]

I hate to belabor this... though I guess I am (bear with, everybody)... but a spouse doesn't automatically inherit the other's entire estate?? Must be a state thing then.... You sure do here. And in Mass.

No, it does, if you don't have a will. Thats how intestate works generally. It of course depends on whether they were divorced. Also, often with anomalies like this case, the probate court could (i'm not sure if they would) determine they died simultaneously. This would really depend on how the state law works with deaths discovered at the same time. I really don't know and I asked a few colleagues of mine and they both gave me different answers.

So, I think you're right that Mark could have inherited the house. The question, then, is who is Mark's heir.

 

[smartie74]

Yeah there isn't much on that stretch of road (460) for a ways.

except a bunch of hills and cows, until you get to the metropolis of Burkeville that is.

 

[dangrsmind]

...now that pax is back where in the world is dangrs?

Hey claudici, I saw your note about your daughter's posting. You know the thing I would have to say about this is that all of the people that I know that follow this path seem to be sort of angry all the time. Someone posted an interview with LaVey's daughter here for example and she seems sort of irritated and pissed during the entire interview. But hey my teenager also acts like that all the time so...

I think a lot of that stems from the emphasis on vengeance and getting rid of psychic vampires. There's no place in Satanism for compassion in LaVey's view it seems. If you meet someone that is truly on the path of compassion, and i have met only one such person, then just being in their presence is enlightening. Even if they aren't teaching, they are teaching. Does that make any sense?

I don't see any of the signs when I watch LaVey talking; he's just using parlor tricks and Hollywood motifs to create some spooky effects. Oh and naked women. Ok, sometimes you have to fake it until you make it, but if the achievement isn't authentic I don't see much point in his system. Also check out what Zeena, LaVey's daughter, says about LaVey. I read that she claimed to have put a curse on him that resulted in his death, so yeah. Not much compassion here.

Finally, I just have to mention, since I don't know how old your daughter is, that I think a lot of people get into Satanism is because of the sexual aspect of it. Zeena Shreck (formerly LaVey) who I already mentioned, wrote a book about Satanic Sex called Demons of the Flesh that has some interesting discussion of Buddhist tantra in it. FWIW. Interested parties probably can find a copy on the Internet somewhere...

 

[tapu]

except a bunch of hills and cows, until you get to the metropolis of Burkeville that is.

I'm guessing somebody here is from Burkeville.

Or somewhere near, and equally rural.

 

[AndresEscobar]

No, it does, if you don't have a will. Thats how intestate works generally. It of course depends on whether they were divorced. Also, often with anomalies like this case, the probate court could (i'm not sure if they would) determine they died simultaneously. This would really depend on how the state law works with deaths discovered at the same time. I really don't know and I asked a few colleagues of mine and they both gave me different answers.

So, I think you're right that Mark could have inherited the house. The question, then, is who is Mark's heir.

This is, of course, with an obvious caveat that will render this whole discussion moot: whoever is likely to inherit the property will probably not want to continue to pay the mortgage.

So, I'm guessing the bank ends up with this one.

 

[CharlieChan]

I don't necessarily think that Raz is originally from NM or El Paso. I read a newspaper article that says she's a Chicago native. I listened to the tape & I heard a "d" in her last name. Our resident linguist (he is a very cunning linguist) called it a "slap d I beleive". That's better than a "slap me". On the Vampirefreaks forum, Raz thanks her lil bro Mikey for standin by her no matter what & also her mom & dad & older brother for never beleiving in her for even 1 minute. Mikey is actually a nickname for a guy named Miguel (Spanish version of Michael). Searching the Moreno's, I haven't been able to come up with anything new.

 

[PAXIMUS]

This is, of course, with an obvious caveat that will render this whole discussion moot: whoever is likely to inherit the property will probably not want to continue to pay the mortgage.

So, I'm guessing the bank ends up with this one.

Well I and my parent also, have insurance that we pay for each month with house payment, that pays house off if we die so whoever inherits it wont have to worry about paying for it further.

 

[blouAngel]

Did you see all the links I have posted that are (most likely) about her? Do a search on this thread and #2 thread using advance search for this thread and put in Lizette and wadahoot. I found what I believe to be her high school, family members, etc.

I went back and looked at your post. The first time, I though you were suggesting you didn't think you had the right one because of the masters degree. No way our girl has one.

I've tried searching for Lizette Moreno on zabasearch and a few other places, but so far hadn't come up with one in New Mexico and the ones I did find couldn't be her for various reasons. It does look like you've come up with the right one at peoplefinders. Lizette C Moreno is listed as living in El Paso TX and Las Cruces NM. Here's the link again for anyone else who wants to look. I still can't find anything interesting. I was looking for actual evidence a pastor father for one thing. She mentions that and I wonder if that's part of what made the link between her and Emma.
http://www.peoplefinders.com/search...link&utm_campaign=detail_fullname&processed=1