VA - Couple & two teens found murdered, Farmville, 15 Sept 2009 #7

[AndresEscobar]

Always wondered. If you kill someone, I would think that you are insane. Who in regular/normal mind kills someone? So all people who kill someone are insane. How does this spare them? I suppose that there are many levels of insanity.

Insanity is a legal term. All (most) people who commit violent crimes have something wrong with them. The concept of insanity is that there is something so wrong with the person who committed the crime that they should be held culpable to a different degree.

Really, a lot of it depends on what theory of punishment you subscribe to, whether you believe the primary purpose of punishment from the state is to rehabilitate these people or to gain retribution for the state and the victim. The "correct' theory is that it should be a mixture of both.

 

[blouAngel]

I received a Chia pet for X-mas. They are alot harder to set up than I thought. All my seeds have fallen onto Obama's face.

CHI-a pet
x-mas

hmmmmm....

sneaky sneaky people

 

[ziggy]

Actually, there is a lot of this kind of discussion in the legal community. One idea is a new pleading called "Guilty, but insane" which is starting to gain support from the ABA and others. I think in certain cases (specifically, the Alyssa Bustamante case and Maybe this one) it's an absolutely appropriate pleading. I support it.

Intersting and thanks. I found a paper on the web that is not in support of this...just linking it to read later and will ask about it in class tonight regarding CA law.

I guess the difficulty is trying to get jurors to understand the level of insanity, which I can see as something very hard to prove and would it seem like the crazier the crime, the crazier the perp? In Sam's case it could seem that whoever is responsible for the murders was either totally crazy or just evil.

It seems like it's the only defense here but I have a hard time distinguishing between pure character flaw or evil intent and mentally insane, which is why I probably would NOT agree with a GBMI pleading and the chaos it might create with jury instruction etc.

I don't think everyone who intends to kill is insane and I think we ought to leave the insanity defense to the real nuts and not extend it to mere bad eggs.

 

[ziggy]

CHI-a pet
x-mas

hmmmmm....

sneaky sneaky people

Ha! Very funny; not to mention Tapu's "ceramics". I love this thread and the quippiest folk who post herein!

 

[dangrsmind]

Be careful with that Chia head! And whatever you do, don't water it after midnight...

 

[CharlieChan]

I don't think Liz beleives all that crapola about killin kids and stuff. She can't deal with the WS crew on this level. She needs to drag it down to the street where she excels. She wants you acting off of emotion. As I think Dange said earlier, it's a pretty effective tecqnique...PS--I think Raz & Sic are innocent of any serious wrongdoing.``

 

[PAXIMUS]

Be careful with that Chia head! And whatever you do, don't water it after midnight...

Meteor !!!

 

[PAXIMUS]

Looks like they locked up the general discussion forum at SykoSam. I wonder why?

 

[AndresEscobar]

Intersting and thanks. I found a paper on the web that is not in support of this...just linking it to read later and will ask about it in class tonight regarding CA law.

I guess the difficulty is trying to get jurors to understand the level of insanity, which I can see as something very hard to prove and would it seem like the crazier the crime, the crazier the perp? In Sam's case it could seem that whoever is responsible for the murders was either totally crazy or just evil.

It seems like it's the only defense here but I have a hard time distinguishing between pure character flaw or evil intent and mentally insane, which is why I probably would NOT agree with a GBMI pleading and the chaos it might create with jury instruction etc.

I don't think everyone who intends to kill is insane and I think we ought to leave the insanity defense to the real nuts and not extend it to mere bad eggs.

Well, there's a lot of hand wringing over the fact that criminals that are potentially dangerous and certainly insane may one day get out of whereever they're thrown if they are successful in their their insanity defense. The argument being: this person is certainly guilty, but is insane, therefore they should be put in a mental health facility for some time before deciding how much time they should spend in jail. Again, it depends on whether you think prisoners should be rehabilitated or simply punished.

In my experience, I think most Americans subscribe to the retribution aspects of punishment. Websleuths has confirmed that for me.

 

[PAXIMUS]

Well, there's a lot of hand wringing over the fact that criminals that are potentially dangerous and certainly insane may one day get out of whereever they're thrown if they are successful in their their insanity defense. The argument being: this person is certainly guilty, but is insane, therefore they should be put in a mental health facility for some time before deciding how much time they should spend in jail. Again, it depends on whether you think prisoners should be rehabilitated or simply punished.

In my experience, I think most Americans subscribe to the retribution aspects of punishment. Websleuths has confirmed that for me.

Me too, this forum has been eye opening as to how the average person sees our justice system. I believe if torture were allowed a lot of folks would have no problem with it. A sure sign of a civilization in decay.

 

[dangrsmind]

For Blou & Pax: Secrets of Masonry Part 3, The Grout and the Safety Cone

http://www.freemasoninformation.com/2009/03/the-checkered-flooring/

 

[wadahoot]

I understand that I must seem mature to you.

I think I'm the Mama and The Tapu is the delightfully eccentric auntie that everyone hope comes to the family get-together when it's at their house! :

 

[wadahoot]

Are those really dreads or are they extensions?

I'm pretty sure they are, for the most part, extentions. There was a video/picture/comment/who-the-h3ll-knows showing Raz doing one of the girl's hair and saying she was putting in the dreads.

 

[wadahoot]

The forensics which we are not privy to, which the jury will here, will decide Sam's fate.

Will we hear the forensics, as a matter of course, during the trial from reporting?

 

[ziggy]

Yes indeed, if there is a trial I am sure we will hear all about the forensic evidence; and sad to say it will probably be a popular trial because of the gruesome nature of the killings etc. Regardless of how disrespectful that may seem to the victims, I do want justice for Emma, Mel, Debra and Mark...FOUR lives violently taken; stolen from them and from their families.

It's interesting that Pax and Andres feel that society is in decay because people would like criminals to be punished and I feel society starts to degrade when we think everything bad is a "disease" that can be cured and fail to recognize that some people are the equivalent of cancer cells in our communities.

Seriously, of all the diseases there are, how many has medicine actually cured? Likewise with the rehabilitation. Now, as JUVENILLES, I think we totally drop the ball when treating them like adult criminals...that is when the intervention could actually make a huge difference and I would support more money for an overhaul of the juvenile justice system.

 

[claudicici]

I'm totally with Pax and Andres ,I don't understand "justice" the way a lot of people see it here I think,it seems like they think it's "justice" when the person who commited the crime suffers,I don't get that....shouldn't it be about understanding what went on,about preventing it in the future,I just always feel that the person who commits a crime ,unless they're a total scoiopath has suffered as well,as weird as that sounds,just to come to the point where you feel the only way to deal with it is to destroy someone else to me shows you have suffered.And I don't understand how it seems to give people "satisfaction" or "justice" when someone else dies or suffers?
....and I don't believe anyone is "evil" or"bad" or a "cancer cell".....

 

[claudicici]

I don't think Liz beleives all that crapola about killin kids and stuff. She can't deal with the WS crew on this level. She needs to drag it down to the street where she excels. She wants you acting off of emotion. As I think Dange said earlier, it's a pretty effective tecqnique...PS--I think Raz & Sic are innocent of any serious wrongdoing.``

well,that comment really got to me emotionally....to me as a woman of course I'm going to be extremely emotional about a little girl,for one I guess it's that mother instinct I guess and also identifying with the little girl inside....I think if she's saying that about a little girl she's really saying that about herself....a mother that kills her child really can't deal with herself I think ......

 

[ziggy]

So if Raz really does believe that it was cool for Casey to kill Caylee then she's just a suffering person? She isn't bad? I personally believe in character flaws. I've seen kids with every convenience and good parents grow up to be criminal a=holes and I don't think you would say these kids ever "suffered". I know because they are my flesh and blood.

 

[claudicici]

correct.I don't think she's a bad person.I'm sorry about your children but again I'm sure they have a reason.

 

[hank]

maybe(and this is a total suggestion) let us all respond in haiku until more facts come out????