VA - Couple & two teens found murdered, Farmville, 15 Sept 2009 #8

[ziggy]

Why were the owners of a funeral parlor in direct contact with the scene? Funeral parlors don't generally clean up crime scenes. Or, was it allegedly just because the parlor owner was the brother of the cop and he just happened to let slip a few details about a murder scene he was at? I don't call up my sister and tell her about specific details of crimes involving my clients. If this is true, the farmville police department has a big problem.

When I said jeopardize the investigation, I wasn't talking about the jury. If police officers are giving details of the crime to civilians then the motion to change venue should absolutely succeed. This crime should not be tried anywhere near Farmville.

I guess if you thought you narrowly escaped death for a second time (lone skinny cop was shot at by drunk driver previously) you might confide in a sibling.

Spoken like a true defense attorney, but the Farmville police department most certainly DOES NOT have a problem if this small tiny tidbit is the only information leaked on such a notorious case!

And I think you were talking about the jury because you referenced change of venue which is the only reason for such a request - because you would think that this information given to a civilian might jeopardize Sam's chance at a fair trial in Farmville.

With all due respect, I think the Farmville police have been extremely good at keeping a lid on information. Immediately after the murders, one cop confided in his brother a few details, FEW, very few. Compare that to states such as Florida that have released scads of information prior to the trial.

Mountain meet mole hill.

 

[AndresEscobar]

I usually find lawyers to be quite eloquent in explaining themselves. Both in person and in writing. I think a lawyer can also distinguish between things in or not in "record as actual evidence" from what a local person on here offers as something she heard. Is anyone else having any trouble finding the proper place to put, in their assessment, the rumors we've gotten to hear in these threads? It seems that we have established that these particular details are hearsay and local rumor. With that in mind now, can't we move on with discussing the possibilities they open up without further scrutinizing the source?

If my argument isn;t abundently clear, I suppose my lack of eloquence is to blame. Maybe it's because I'm doing work and multi tasking, but that's fine. I'd like us to hold information to some standard. It doesn't have to be admissible in court. It just has to plausible and have some corroboration. But, you guys win, I'll back off.

 

[AndresEscobar]

I guess if you thought you narrowly escaped death for a second time (lone skinny cop was shot at by drunk driver previously) you might confide in a sibling.

(respectfully snipped)

Sure, but why would I tell them something completely unrelated to my narrowly escaping death: the candles and air machines and air fresheners?

The skinny cop thing is not at issue. Lots of people think they narrowly escaped death when they encounter someone who commits a violent crime. I believe that he thinks he might have.

 

[PAXIMUS]

I have not been able to come up with a theory that works for me yet.

My problem with the crime of passion idea is the timing. If he had grabbed the hammer and hit Emma while they were arguing, or shortly after whatever set him off, I would go with this idea. Waiting until they went to sleep gave him to time to have second thoughts, but he didn't. He could have left, but he didn't. From what we know, it also seems that he and Emma fought before going to Michigan, so there was a lot of time for him to cool off. If the girls kept bothering him, why did he go back with them?

The bullied kid who finally pushed back idea, I could somewhat buy. However, would it really be fighting back to teach someone a lesson while they slept? We don't know what actually happened in there so it could be possible I guess.

I would not be surprised if there was a drug and/or mental illness component we are missing here.

There is one thing you have said a few times that I don't quite get. You have said that he went to Virginia thinking Emma was his chance at a new life or something along those lines (forgive me if I am way off). Do you mean maybe he thought he was going to be able to stay there with her? Move to Farmville and get a job/leave California?

Well I came up with that theory from what Pixy told us, obviously we all know he was confined to his bedroom and didnt have a good family life in California and in fact mom and dad both refused to drive him to the airport for his trip to VA and dad told him flat out if he went on the trip dont bother coming back, so yes from that evidence I surmised that Sam likely felt this would be a fresh start for him, as Emma herself had told him on myspace which we have a cache to somewhere that she wanted to be with him forever. So I think Sam felt he couldnt go back home and this was a chance at a new life for him and when that plan started to slowly go south due to what we believe was a rejection of him by Emma, he felt up against the wall with no where to turn and nowhere to go but back to that living hell of a home and family he had whom we can assume would never let him hear the end of his latest boneheaded mistake of blowing all his money on a trip on a whim to meet some girl from the internet. So yes I think it is safe to say that Sam planned on staying there and having a life with Emma and starting over and when it became apparent that this was all talk and no walk with Emma he simply lost it and had nothing to lose and acted out accordingly.

From this I see no evidence of sociopath I see a desperate lonely kid with a ****ed up home life looking for a fresh start and when that plan unraveled he had a psychological break and did the unthinkable.

 

[ziggy]

Sure, but why would I tell them something completely unrelated to my narrowly escaping death: the candles and air machines and air fresheners?

The skinny cop thing is not at issue. Lots of people think they narrowly escaped death when they encounter someone who commits a violent crime. I believe that he thinks he might have.

Well I agree that those things are unrelated. I don't, however, find it odd that they were discussed or mentioned. What I find more incredible is that not more was leaked.

We all know that people talk. If the defense is going to try and bring in a "this cop told his brother this minute detail who told someone else, who told someone else...." I mean NOW you are dealing with inadmissable hearsay right?

I think something much more substantial will be in order to warrant a change of venue, but his attorney would be committing malpractice if he didn't request it. Of course we don't really know what's out and about in the Farmville grapevine; at the local coffee shop etc.

I hardly think the DA is worried about our small conversation here.

 

[PAXIMUS]

As to your suggestion of other components involved such as drugs or mental illness I suppose thats possible and I am most certainly sure that there is another side to this story that can only be told by Sam and it may be compelling enough, assuming he isnt lying, that it could change the dynamics of this care entirely.

Although it is worth noting that Sam was not known to use drugs of any kind, he says so himself in his own profiles on various sites and in this day and age his generation has no problem admitting the use of such and commonly do exactly that yet Sam says he never had any interest in using drugs, including marijuana and only occasionally drank so i am not sure if Sam was a user or not. He and others have both claimed that he was really in to sports, fitness and jogged and worked out regularly and played football on his HS team before being kicked out of school. I am not sure we have any evidence to suggest Sam was a drug user. Mentally ill and emotionall stunted for sure though.

His friends and those close to him, even Pixy said he wasnt a drug user. But then we have the car full of pills so go figure that. I assume that was maybe a backup plan B suicide attempt if all else failed.

 

[DoctorZ]

As to your suggestion of other components involved such as drugs or mental illness I suppose thats possible and I am most certainly sure that there is another side to this story that can only be told by Sam and it may be compelling enough, assuming he isnt lying, that it could change the dynamics of this care entirely.

Although it is worth noting that Sam was not known to use drugs of any kind, he says so himself in his own profiles on various sites and in this day and age his generation has no problem admitting the use of such and commonly do exactly that yet Sam says he never had any interest in using drugs, including marijuana and only occasionally drank so i am not sure if Sam was a user or not. He and others have both claimed that he was really in to sports, fitness and jogged and worked out regularly and played football on his HS team before being kicked out of school. I am not sure we have any evidence to suggest Sam was a drug user. Mentally ill and emotionall stunted for sure though.

His friends and those close to him, even Pixy said he wasnt a drug user. But then we have the car full of pills so go figure that. I assume that was maybe a backup plan B suicide attempt if all else failed.

Could be that he tried something after pressure from the girls. Or just a mental problem exacerbated by the situation.

We won't now the true story for a long time, if ever.

 

[ziggy]

I just want to clarify that a very disorganized crime such as the one Sam allegedly committed signifies that he may have acted out of rage, but just because someone or something engrages a person, it is not considered adequate provocation to be considered killing in the heat of passion.

The pills all over the car; the mess he left in the house; I mean just the fact that he left receipts and threw things away in the Kelly's garbage suggests a very disorganized killer.

snipped from Wikipedia: Bolded by me

" Disorganized/asocial offenders
Disorganized asocial offenders are often of low intelligence, have a below average IQ (<90), and commit their crimes impulsively. Whereas the organized killer will specifically set out to hunt a victim, the disorganized will murder someone when the opportunity arises, rarely bothering to dispose of the body but instead just leaving it at the same place where they found the victim. They usually carry out blitz-style attacks, leaping out and attacking their victims without warning, and will typically perform whatever rituals they feel compelled to carry out (e.g., necrophilia, mutilation, cannibalism, etc.) once the victim is dead. They rarely bother to cover their tracks but may still evade capture for extended periods of time due to the anonymous nature of the crime. They are often introverted, socially inadequate with few friends, and they may have a history of mental problems. Richard Chase is an example of a disorganized serial killer."

Of course they are talking about serial killers I know, but this still fits with what I know of the crime and Sam.

 

[AndresEscobar]

Well I agree that those things are unrelated. I don't, however, find it odd that they were discussed or mentioned. What I find more incredible is that not more was leaked.

We all know that people talk. If the defense is going to try and bring in a "this cop told his brother this minute detail who told someone else, who told someone else...." I mean NOW you are dealing with inadmissable hearsay right?

I think something much more substantial will be in order to warrant a change of venue, but his attorney would be committing malpractice if he didn't request it. Of course we don't really know what's out and about in the Farmville grapevine; at the local coffee shop etc.

I hardly think the DA is worried about our small conversation here.

It wouldn't be barred by the hearsay evidence rule to bring up that police officers are telling sensitive information involving the case to people in a motion for change of venue. All it shows is that the population of the area is more prejudiced.

And, of course, it's not a slam dunk, but it adds support. Not sure if I posted the standards for a motion of change of venue in this thread or the other one. But, if I were the DA, police talking to people who talk to people wouldn't be helping me.

 

[CharlieChan]

Amen pax!!

 

[CharlieChan]

Pax said "From this I see no evidence of sociopath I see a desperate lonely kid with a ****ed up home life looking for a fresh start and when that plan unraveled he had a psychological break and did the unthinkable. " I think that's pretty much it in a nutshell.

 

[PAXIMUS]

Could be that he tried something after pressure from the girls. Or just a mental problem exacerbated by the situation.

We won't now the true story for a long time, if ever.

Yes thats the problem we simply do not know but if I have my way I do plan to meet with Sam in a jailhouse interview under the protection of my press pass and see if he will talk to me once this is all over. I have several of his close friends trying to possibly set this up and it will in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM become a hit piece on Sam, just simply someone who will listen and write his side of his story without adding or taking away anything from his own words.

We will see.

 

[claudicici]

Lets have a show of hands here, just quote this post and say which option you pick:

1--Sam is a sociopath.

2--This was strictly a one time thing for Sam, a crime of passion where the perfect storm came together and he snapped but otherwise could have went his whole life without being a murderer.

3--Not enough information to draw a conclusion yet.


I am somewhere between 2 and 3 right now but leaning more towards crime of passion.

I am interested in what the rest of you think so please take a moment to participate.

Thanks.

a big fat 2 for me!!!!

 

[PAXIMUS]

Pax said "From this I see no evidence of sociopath I see a desperate lonely kid with a ****ed up home life looking for a fresh start and when that plan unraveled he had a psychological break and did the unthinkable. " I think that's pretty much it in a nutshell.

Thanks. I am not here to tell anyone else they are wrong and I certainly have no more information to work with than the rest of you but that is what I see and I understand some will agree and some wont and thats good and healthy we all need to express our opinions and learn from eachother accordingly.

 

[claudicici]

I think as he explained earlier its simply his writing style in that he is very direct and to the point and not really friendly as such. Thats largely due to the fact that he is a lawyer and we dont deal well with things not in record as actual evidence.

If we met Andres in person we would probably see that he is alot more friendly and approachable than he seems on here and thats likely true of all of us.

lol,you and Andres have such a bromance...you got each others back

 

[PAXIMUS]

lol,you and Andres have such a bromance...you got each others back

We have spoken off forum several times and have found out we have a lot in common and he has become something of a friend so yea I want to stick up for him but I feel the same way for you and Zigster and certainly the Tapu and Charlie and Eric and Dawg and Coastal and Wes and Herione and Waddahoot and anyone else I missed. Also Dngrs my go to guy he has vast experience in so many areas that he is someone every thread needs for it to be successful and interesting.

I just dont want anyone taking Andres comments personally he has his own style and from getting to know him off line I know his heart is absolutely in the right place and he thinks very highly of everyone here.

If we lost just a single poster from this group it would change everything, you for example dont feel you contribute much but to the contrary your insight is unique and very helpful for those of us not so in touch with our darker sides and I learn a lot from every word you post, really.

And the Tapu, well whats a place like this without some good light hearted humor. She is funny, intelligent and informative in a good healthy light mannered way.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

I want to record a few backup pieces of info that I found while trying to fill in some blanks of the timeline for myself. Sorry if what I type is out of context or has already been discussed. I read thread five today up to page 16 - lots of interesting stuff.

I had speculated before that SM could suffer schizophrenia. Tonight I ran across some lyrics he wrote according to an article, "'Syko Sam' Allegedly Argued with Girlfriend", 9/26/09, (cbs5.com/crime) that states, "In a song posted on YouTube, the Castro Valley, Calif., man growls about the evil voices inside my head. They just want me to murder continuously."

Later it's reported that he said, "It's not my fault. ... Don't blame me you can blame all the voices."

This rings true as to what schizophrenia sounds like. I know someone who suffers from this condition and we have had candid talks about what his experiences are like. When I first met him I was afraid of him and kept my distance. He had a weapon in his parent's front yard once and was acting pretty nutso. Everyone was afraid at that time. That was twenty-three years ago. He is on disability now and takes his medicine diligently (there are medicines available now that were not available twenty years ago - you have to be diagnosed and take them - they work well.) We can always tell if he has not taken his medicine - very rarely he'll call us up and begin discussing conspiracy theories and space issues and, for some reason, JFK and just strange, strange, strange connections that don't connect. Here's the thing, if he's on his medicine, he is totally rational and has shared with me about his condition, how he is fully aware of it and he'll tell me outright "it's tough having voices in your head" and "when I was young I was always hearing those voices and I couldn't get anything done. I would get these headaches. I didn't understand what was happening to me." Sometimes he'll say, "You know I can't hold a job because the fumes from the paint affect me and I get such a bad headache." He'll tell me "It's tough to be a schizophrenic." I tell him that I know it must be but with medicine he has done so well and we are all proud of him for staying with it and turning his life around. Today he is a thoughtful person. He remembers birthdays and keeps in contact and shares his feelings about things, has awareness of time, his schedule, cooks, etc. He worries about his friends and helps them. It's like night and day. But he needs to take the medicine - a miracle really.

It has been discussed what type of condition SM may have, if any, but I had a hunch it may be this. It doesn't change what he has done but would bring awareness of why sometimes people do horrible things like this. One thing though, the people who know him should have noticed something 'different' about him - off. The fact that he kept to himself and was quiet would be part of his mask. Even if he hadn't murdered, the condition would grow to where he couldn't have a normal conversation without the other person going :waitasec:. And it still will if this is what he has. When the person I know was twenty, he was undiagnosed, held a job and, because he was so handsome too, walked around and one would never know. Initially noone wants to talk about or see it until it's unavoidable. It's very, very difficult to accept. Also not all people who suffer from this would kill people but you'd know that they seem crazy for sure.

Just my :twocents:. If this is the diagnosis, it would explain the fine line as to why some people can listen to horrorcore and remain sane. They claim that they would never kill anybody but if you are literally 'sick', well ..... not a good combination.

 

[wadahoot]

Lets have a show of hands here, just quote this post and say which option you pick:
3--Not enough information to draw a conclusion yet.

I'm a 3 --- knew early in life I'd NEVER be a 10 :winko:

The only reason I am not happy with the passion theory is exactly what Pixy wrote in that post #186 that Dangrs brought over from the other thread. How could he have waited throughout the drive to Michigan (and who knows how many days prior to departure Emma dissed him), thoughtout the concert (hangin' with another girl), the whole drive back and another couple of days if he was passionately exploding? And, why did he hang around, and - the biggest one to me - why did he kill Mark another day or two later. That series of events and the time they took just don't add up to passionate hysteria to me.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

In the same article I mention above, I ran across the source where I must have read that Sam and Emma had met before. The article is linked through WIKI Farmville murders [9].

"Sarah McCroskey says her brother met Emma about a year ago, at a concert near San Diego. They were on the phone so much after that, Sarah had to buy herself a cell phone."

Also, "Shrim says he met Emma and Melanie at a horrorcore festival a couple of years ago in Chicago. Emma's mother brought them."

 

[PAXIMUS]

LOL nothing those people write about is true except for the fact that we at WS did recently learn that Windchime is a child molester. Tricia banned her on the spot and sent out an announcement telling us about it. It's true that at first she seemed to kinda just want it to go away.. windchime and the drama it brought (probably an impulse reaction, which I dont blame her for - that's a heck of a lot of drama) but in my view, she quickly rethought it and opened a thread in the jury room allowing a pretty broad and imo fair Q & A. She most surely did not side with windchime or windchimes sister as these bloggers claim. She simply did as she always does and allowed everyone to have a voice, except for the accused. IIRC The reason windchimes nick was not banned is because by doing so, every one of her posts would be gone.. everything she contributed to WS would be gone. While I understand that some people think she being a molester, her work here should be gone, I side with admin on this because years worth of dialogue, documentation and pretty critical information regarding cases we follow here would be gone.

There was a falling out a couple of years ago with some of the old mods, they had some major jealousy issues apparently and once banned from here they began taking every opportunity they could to create lies and just straight up BS about Trica and mods here all over the internet. They found out this little gem and you'd have thought they won the gold medal.. it was quite sad watching the pleasure it brought them. But as always (IMO) Trica handled it like an adult and came out of it all just fine. They make themselves look really bad but it seems they don't care.

i kinda figured that was the case in fact I am going to delete the links if you would kindly delete the quote of them I dont want to start up any trouble and just stumbled and on them and they took me by surpirse. Will delete now will you accomdate please? Thanks.