VA - Freshman daughter, mom 'good time drop off' outrages VA university

[flourish]

Nah - don't think so. It's 100% different. Venus and Mars. The age old story. And, really, what does the internet have to do with anything? It may take tattling and abuse to another level, but it doesn't really change anything. So these things can be filmed now - doesn't mean all this crap hasn't been going on forever.

So it's not sexist for the girls who hung offensive banners, just the guys?

And the Internet comment was simply an aside, indicating that many people have a few regrettable college moments, and that I'm appreciative that none of mine are available for viewing. Geez.


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[flourish]

Young women can be crass and rude, and harass young men too, but their history is different. They don't have the same power and they don't have the system to back them up the way young men have. The signs may be the same (and reactions might be all over the place) but the meaning and power is different.

I can agree with that perspective and point, as yes, women are historically and realistically the victims of the behaviors and acts that are frequently associated with the attitudes shown.

However, I don't think either banner is less sexist than the other, simply because of the authors. They are both sexist, IMO.


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[Fairy1]

So it's not sexist for the girls who hung offensive banners, just the guys?

And the Internet comment was simply an aside, indicating that many people have a few regrettable college moments, and that I'm appreciative that none of mine are available for viewing. Geez.


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Find me ONE guy - of any age - that wouldn't welcome being objectified in a sexual way. ONE. I have a 23 year old son - I'll ask him when he gets home from work if he would give a fig.

 

[bluesneakers]

Find me ONE guy that wouldn't welcome being objectified in a sexual way. ONE. I have a 23 year old son - I'll ask him when he gets home from work if he would give a fig.

I don't have any numbers, but I'm sure not all men would welcome being objectified in a sexual way. Men can feel harassed, threatened, and uncomfortable too. And IMO it doesn't matter if they were okay with it anyway, it's still wrong in certain settings. The same way some women don't mind if men stare or make comments at work or in class, for instance. It doesn't make it okay.

 

[flourish]

Find me ONE guy - of any age - that wouldn't welcome being objectified in a sexual way. ONE. I have a 23 year old son - I'll ask him when he gets home from work if he would give a fig.

Well if guys are generally okay withbeing objects....

Reminds me of the arguments that female teachers who sexually abuse male students are different because surely the boy liked it.

I disagree.

And know plenty of red-blooded males who like being viewed as humans. Sexy humans but humans. Lol now flame me for levity! Jk
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[Fairy1]

I don't have any numbers, but I'm sure not all men would welcome being objectified in a sexual way. Men can feel harassed, threatened, and uncomfortable too. And IMO it doesn't matter if they were okay with it anyway, it's still wrong in certain settings. The same way some women don't mind if men stare or make comments at work or in class, for instance. It doesn't make it okay.

You may be right - I don't have any numbers either. But it's really not the same. Men are not routinely catcalled or reduced to sexual beings, and nothing more, generally.

Do you have daughters? Nieces? Are you a woman? How would you have felt if you had been delivering your daughter to the school where those signs were hanging? You can teach your children the proper way to behave, but you can't teach other people's children. And yes, in college, kids will make mistakes and do stupid things. Should it be utterly devastating? No.

 

[Fairy1]

Well if guys are generally okay withbeing objects....

Reminds me of the arguments that female teachers who sexually abuse male students are different because surely the boy liked it.

I disagree.

And know plenty of red-blooded males who like being viewed as humans. Sexy humans but humans. Lol now flame me for levity! Jk
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I didn't say generally. And I know plenty of females who would also love to be judged as humans, but aren't.

 

[bluesneakers]

You may be right - I don't have any numbers either. But it's really not the same. Men are not routinely catcalled or reduced to sexual beings, and nothing more, generally.

Do you have daughters? Nieces? Are you a woman? How would you have felt if you had been delivering your daughter to the school where those signs were hanging? You can teach your children the proper way to behave, but you can't teach other people's children. And yes, in college, kids will make mistakes and do stupid things. Should it be utterly devastating? No.

I don't think it's the same, which is why my earlier comment mentioned the history and power structure and system favoring men.

I'm not sure what you're asking me, but college kids do make mistakes and sometimes they're devastating.

 

[MamaJoJo]

I don't believe in rape culture at all. The definition of rape in the west has expanded so much through radical third wave feminism and affirmative consent laws that it barely means anything anymore. Some college women think consent can be withdrawn retroactively and that regretful sex means rape, and innocent men are being punished without due process. Young people should learn to avoid alcohol or drink responsibly to avoid situations where they can be taken advantage of by other students, and that saying no is perfectly fine. Spreading debunked statistics like "1 in 5 women are raped" to induce misplaced panic will not help. There have been pro-rape freshman chants at universities like UBC and Saint Mary's in Canada that are truly disgusting compared to these banners.

I kinda of get what you are saying in your post but I think rape culture is alive and well. I don't think the majority of people who have "regretful sex" call it rape. I'm sure some people have made that assertion and that there guys who are falsely accused. However, if you've been raped, you pretty much know it. It feels different. Whether you are drunk or not. Whether the guy believes he raped you or not.

You do say one thing, BBM, that I'd like to directly address...Why should anyone have to NOT drink just to protect themselves from being taken advantage of or raped? Isn't the onus on the person doing the advantage taking or raping? Why can't a girl have some drinks, get frisky with a guy (maybe even real frisky), say no to intercourse, pass out (or not) and go home in the morning WITHOUT having sex? Saying no IS perfectly fine and while women say it sometimes between passionate kisses and touching, it still means "no". It's important for guys to hear it and act accordingly.

There is a really funny, yet important, segment on Last Week Tonight with John Oliver regarding sex education. He discusses many aspects of SexEd in the U.S. but he also touches on consent. I found the segment quite intriguing and shared it with my kids.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L0jQz6jqQS0

 

[Fairy1]

I don't think it's the same, which is why my earlier comment mentioned the history and power structure and system favoring men.

I'm not sure what you're asking me, but college kids do make mistakes and sometimes they're devastating.

I asked you if you have any daughters or nieces or if you are a woman. Would you find those banners offensive if they were directed at you or any young women that you care about?

I have a niece that is about to go off to college away from home. She is drop-dead gorgeous and this will be her first time far away from home and family. She is also a brilliant young lady, pursuing a medical career. I would rather have her received at her university as an intelligent young person than some potential sexual conquest. I really doubt the mothers or aunts of the male students at this (or any) university have these same concerns.

 

[flourish]

I asked you if you have any daughters or nieces or if you are a woman. Would you find those banners offensive if they were directed at you or any young women that you care about.

I have a niece that is about to go off to college away from home. She is drop-dead gorgeous and this will be her first time far away from home. She is also a brilliant young lady, pursuing a medical career. I would rather have her received at her university as an intelligent young person that some potential sexual conquest. I really doubt the mothers or aunts of the male students at this (or any) university have these same concerns.

That doesn't make it okay. Or true. I'm a woman. I have a dozen or so nieces and grand-nieces. I'm more familiar with rape than I'd prefer. So are the males in my life who have been the victims of sexual abuse. Because males aren't immune to sexual abuse, assault, harassment, rape, or sexism.

Edited because I forgot a word.
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[Fairy1]

That doesn't make it true. I'm a woman. I have a dozen or so nieces and grand-nieces. I'm more familiar with rape than I'd prefer. So are the males in my life who have been the victims of sexual abuse. Because males aren't immune to sexual abuse, assault, harassment, rape, or sexism.


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Of course, males aren't immune. But in THIS particular instance, they are the potential predators and "baby girls" are the actual targets. IMO, that's 100% clear with the banners.

 

[flourish]

Of course, males aren't immune. But in THIS particular instance, they are the potential predators and "baby girls" are the actual targets. IMO, that's 100% clear with the banners.

On that we can agree.

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[bluesneakers]

I asked you if you have any daughters or nieces or if you are a woman. Would you find those banners offensive if they were directed at you or any young women that you care about?

I have a niece that is about to go off to college away from home. She is drop-dead gorgeous and this will be her first time far away from home and family. She is also a brilliant young lady, pursuing a medical career. I would rather have her received at her university as an intelligent young person than some potential sexual conquest. I really doubt the mothers or aunts of the male students at this (or any) university have these same concerns.

My daughter graduated from a school with a reputation for being a party school, where a young man in a frat died from binge drinking. I worried about her safety often. And yes, I would absolutely be troubled by these banners. I would be angry as well.

I'm just confused about why you thought I might be okay with the signs. I don't think I've said anything implying I would be. My first comment to the thread was something about please let's just get rid of frats, I discussed rape culture and posted links about what's wrong with frats, I made comments about the power behind when men are sexist vs. when women are sexist.

Did I say something in particular that led you to believe I didn't have a problem with the banners?

 

[BlueShoe]

I think both banners are sexist, although one has been removed. However, not both banners imply potential rape of victims. That's because although men can be raped by women, that's not very commonplace, whereas the other happens more often than we like to say. I'm not bashing fraternities either, just the banners. I do wonder how some of the posters would feel with this hypothetical: Let's pretend there was a very popular gay fraternity that was known for drinking and sometimes luring young men and raping them (just occasionally). (Let me point out that this bears no relation to reality, just a hypothetical.) I wonder how some posters would feel dropping their young sons off if this fraternity hung a banner saying "Drop off your baby boys here, we'll show them a good time?" Just some thoughts. IMO.

 

[BritsKate]

I kinda of get what you are saying in your post but I think rape culture is alive and well. I don't think the majority of people who have "regretful sex" call it rape. I'm sure some people have made that assertion and that there guys who are falsely accused. However, if you've been raped, you pretty much know it. It feels different. Whether you are drunk or not. Whether the guy believes he raped you or not.

You do say one thing, BBM, that I'd like to directly address...Why should anyone have to NOT drink just to protect themselves from being taken advantage of or raped? Isn't the onus on the person doing the advantage taking or raping? Why can't a girl have some drinks, get frisky with a guy (maybe even real frisky), say no to intercourse, pass out (or not) and go home in the morning WITHOUT having sex? Saying no IS perfectly fine and while women say it sometimes between passionate kisses and touching, it still means "no". It's important for guys to hear it and act accordingly.

There is a really funny, yet important, segment on Last Week Tonight with John Oliver regarding sex education. He discusses many aspects of SexEd in the U.S. but he also touches on consent. I found the segment quite intriguing and shared it with my kids.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L0jQz6jqQS0

I agree and see examples of it all the time online. I think some are confused over what rape culture actually is - it isn't just advocating or promoting rape...it's comprised of so many different things - like the media using the word sex in rape cases as though the two words are interchangeable; catcalls and street harassment; victim blaming; *advertiser censored* shaming; putting the onus on women to prevent being raped rather than men not raping; media, TV, jokes, advertising, language, etc. that normalizes or naturalizes violence or sexism against women; or even just believing certain types of people get raped and other certain types of people aren't capable of rape. And still so much more than I've taken time to type.

False allegations of rape do indeed occur as well (for some reason that always comes up when rape culture is mentioned too) - but it's well in line with false allegations for other crimes - at about 2%. Statistically, it's the same percentage as rapes successfully prosecuted. 68% of sexual assaults went unreported over the last 5 years - in part, because of the rape culture.

JMO and FWIW

 

[katydid23]

I kinda of get what you are saying in your post but I think rape culture is alive and well. I don't think the majority of people who have "regretful sex" call it rape. I'm sure some people have made that assertion and that there guys who are falsely accused. However, if you've been raped, you pretty much know it. It feels different. Whether you are drunk or not. Whether the guy believes he raped you or not.

You do say one thing, BBM, that I'd like to directly address...Why should anyone have to NOT drink just to protect themselves from being taken advantage of or raped? Isn't the onus on the person doing the advantage taking or raping? Why can't a girl have some drinks, get frisky with a guy (maybe even real frisky), say no to intercourse, pass out (or not) and go home in the morning WITHOUT having sex? Saying no IS perfectly fine and while women say it sometimes between passionate kisses and touching, it still means "no". It's important for guys to hear it and act accordingly.

There is a really funny, yet important, segment on Last Week Tonight with John Oliver regarding sex education. He discusses many aspects of SexEd in the U.S. but he also touches on consent. I found the segment quite intriguing and shared it with my kids.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L0jQz6jqQS0

BBM

So a girl comes to a guys room late at night, drinks with him, fools around sexually, passionately, goes to sleep in his bed...and the onus is on the drunk 18 yr old guy not to take it further? That sounds like a dangerous way to act. And it does not sound like a very fair way for the girl to act. To get in a drunk guys bed and do passionate, sexual things and then put on the brakes. And go to sleep? Sounds kind of cruel to me. JMO

 

[LinasK]

More like anti-sexual harassment, anti-sexual misconduct, and anti-sexual assault.

Which is exactly what Liberals stand for, so in response to the last poster, yeah we Liberals are outraged at these banners!!!

 

[LinasK]

Do you also think "No means yes, yes means ...." is funny?

Frat culture is a problem, imo, and frat brothers feel entitled to certain things. Female students are paying the price.

Shades of Bill Cosby...:notgood:

 

[bluesneakers]

Shades of Bill Cosby...:notgood:

Hey, I was hoping you'd comment! More wrt what a helicopter-type parent might do in this case. I lean more free-range and had a tough time dropping off my daughter as it was. If I'd seen these banners I might've found her a new place and spent the night.