VA - Freshman daughter, mom 'good time drop off' outrages VA university

[Donjeta]

She should make that clear up front. But if one is not prepared to have sex, do they need to climb into a drunk teen's bed and spend the night, and have foreplay? That seems like a recipe for disaster, imo.

I always told my daughter just that exactly. Don't climb into a boys bed and begin making out with him because it is playing with fire. Stay down stairs on the couch, make out and then LEAVE when you want to go. JMO

Well I won't disagree with that, it would certainly often be safer to leave than to stay the night, provided that there's a safe ride home. But people get raped on the couch and on the floor too, a bed is not necessary at all.

 

[bluesneakers]

What percentage of campus rapes are occurring in this very specific mixed-signal-she-was-cruel situation?

 

[katydid23]

Well I won't disagree with that, it would certainly often be safer to leave than to stay the night, provided that there's a safe ride home. But people get raped on the couch and on the floor too, a bed is not necessary at all.

Of course. And I am being stubborn about this because my sons best friend was arrested and charged with rape when he was a sophomore in college. And it nearly ruined his entire life. Luckily she finally admitted she lied and it was consensual.

She was a friend from high school, was going to be an incoming freshman , and messaged him that she wanted a tour of the campus. They had dated in high school so he did not think it was weird when she showed up with a bottle of wine. They had MUTUALLY agreed upon relations. She left the next morning, with a smile and a goodbye kiss. Then went to the police and said she was raped by him. It was HORRIBLE. For everyone involved it was a nightmare. His family was devastated and it hurt his father's family business for awhile. My son was devastated too. This was his best friend for years. He believed him but most people believed her.

She eventually admitted that she was afraid her boyfriend would find out she stayed the night there because as she was leaving that morning she saw a kid they both knew. So she claimed RAPE. even though she admitted she got drunk with him and voluntarily stayed in his bed, she said he forced her to have sex. And he had NO WAY of protecting himself at that point. Just her word against his.

Do you know how horrible it is for him to have an arrest for rape on his record? he is trying to have it expunged and it might be soon. But he dropped out of school because of the stress.

 

[katydid23]

What percentage of campus rapes are occurring in this very specific mixed-signal-she-was-cruel situation?

Date rapes? Quite a few are mixed signal, miscommunication types. I don't know the percentage. But many are 'regret' type of situations. JMO

 

[bluesneakers]

Date rapes? Quite a few are mixed signal, miscommunication types. I don't know the percentage. But many are 'regret' type of situations. JMO

Then why are you bringing them up? What do they have to do with the banners and the rape culture that exists on college campuses, especially wrt frats?

eta: How many is many? How many is quite a few?

 

[Donjeta]

Of course. And I am being stubborn about this because my sons best friend was arrested and charged with rape when he was a sophomore in college. And it nearly ruined his entire life. Luckily she finally admitted she lied and it was consensual.

She was a friend from high school, was going to be an incoming freshman , and messaged him that she wanted a tour of the campus. They had dated in high school so he did not think it was weird when she showed up with a bottle of wine. They had MUTUALLY agreed upon relations. She left the next morning, with a smile and a goodbye kiss. Then went to the police and said she was raped by him. It was HORRIBLE. For everyone involved it was a nightmare. His family was devastated and it hurt his father's family business for awhile. My son was devastated too. This was his best friend for years. He believed him but most people believed her.

She eventually admitted that she was afraid her boyfriend would find out she stayed the night there because as she was leaving that morning she saw a kid they both knew. So she claimed RAPE. even though she admitted she got drunk with him and voluntarily stayed in his bed, she said he forced her to have sex. And he had NO WAY of protecting himself at that point. Just her word against his.

Do you know how horrible it is for him to have an arrest for rape on his record? he is trying to have it expunged and it might be soon. But he dropped out of school because of the stress.

That must have been horrible for him but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the scenario that we were discussing. She didn't get drunk and give confusing signals and then refuse to have sex and get raped. She consented and then lied about the consent.

If we want to protect boys from this kind of situation, it's no use telling girls to refuse to engage in sexual activity and stay with a boy, we should be telling boys to refuse to engage in sexual activity and stay with a girl.

 

[BritsKate]

Date rapes? Quite a few are mixed signal, miscommunication types. I don't know the percentage. But many are 'regret' type of situations. JMO

I often hear these questions at sexual assault response or prevention trainings around campus. The short answer to this question is, NO, women do NOT say they have been sexually assaulted or raped when they have had consensual sex that they regret.

Let’s break this down.

Do people who had a consensual sexual experience that they regret call it sexual assault?
NO, very rarely.[2]

Consider what happens when someone publicly says they have been a victim or survivor of sexual assault. Being a victim of any crime is not something that people are proud of or gain positive public recognition for reporting or discussing. Unfortunately, survivors commonly receive negative attention across news or social media for publicly discussing their experience.
Because many of us assume we know how we would react to trauma, victims/survivors are asked why they engaged in behaviors that happened before the assault (“why did you drink so much?”), which (intentionally or not) blame them for something which is not their fault.[3] When we take into consideration the low rates of convictions in the criminal system as well, it’s easy to understand why sexual assaults are underreported to the police, and rarely reported falsely. It only makes sense that some people who are assaulted never tell their friends[4] and avoid calling their experience “assault.”

Do people who experience sexual assault say they regret the experience?
YES, especially right afterwards.

In my experience, many people (men, women, and trans* folks) who experience unwanted and non-consensual sex blame themselves for what happened, even though it’s not their fault. They may mean that they regret actions they took before the assault, from being at a party to having anything to drink at all.
Many victims/survivors do not use the terms “rape” or “sexual assault” or “sexual violence” to describe their experience immediately after the incident. Since alcohol is involved in over half of sexual assaults on a college campus, folks may not remember what happened if they were blacked out or drunk. They also may not be able to clearly talk about what happened because of new research about neurobiology in trauma victims which indicates that the “brain’s prefrontal cortex—which is key to decision-making and memory—often becomes temporarily impaired.”[5] If folks do remember their unwanted sexual experience, they may say that
*They wouldn’t have engaged in the sexual activity if they had been sober,
i.e. they regret drinking
*They didn’t really want to have sex
*They did not want to have sex without protection, but their partner insisted
etc.

http://healthyheels.org/2013/11/07/regret-sex-versus-sexual-assault/

 

[Donjeta]

Date rapes? Quite a few are mixed signal, miscommunication types. I don't know the percentage. But many are 'regret' type of situations. JMO

Some miscommunications might be easily cleared if the attitudes changed and people stopped assuming that signalling yes for act X automatically means signalling yes for act Y and stopped taking it for granted that a drunk girl in the house means "yeah I get laid tonight". JMO.

 

[bluesneakers]

http://healthyheels.org/2013/11/07/regret-sex-versus-sexual-assault/

Consider what happens when someone publicly says they have been a victim or survivor of sexual assault. Being a victim of any crime is not something that people are proud of or gain positive public recognition for reporting or discussing. Unfortunately, survivors commonly receive negative attention across news or social media for publicly discussing their experience.

This. I think of this so often. It's a complete lose-lose because women come forward, which is frightening, and then they are not believed and/or are accused of making it up for attention. Others see this and it keeps them from coming forward. On and on. I think that's behind what happened in Cosby's case and in Ghomeshi's too after more accusers came forward and the victims gained courage from one another.

 

[katydid23]

That must have been horrible for him but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the scenario that we were discussing. She didn't get drunk and give confusing signals and then refuse to have sex and get raped. She consented and then lied about the consent.

If we want to protect boys from this kind of situation, it's no use telling girls to refuse to engage in sexual activity and stay with a boy, we should be telling boys to refuse to engage in sexual activity and stay with a girl.

I think it is very much like what we are discussing. They drank together, she agreed to have sex, even though she felt conflicted because of her boyfriend. She gave him some mixed messages, then she decided she did want to have sex because she always had a crush on him. But the next morning she felt regretful and decided to call it a rape.

He had no way to defend himself from her accusations because of the fervent anti-male attitude that seems rampant in some colleges. He was assumed to be guilty by the college and the cops and even most people in his hometown. Even though he had NEVER been in any trouble ever. And no one had ever accused him of anything like that ever.

A girl can message a guy, bring a bottle of wine over, willingly climb into bed with him, have sex, spend the night---but if she says it was rape then everyone believes it to be so. And that is unfair, imo.

 

[BlueShoe]

I think it is very much like what we are discussing. They drank together, she agreed to have sex, even though she felt conflicted because of her boyfriend. She gave him some mixed messages, then she decided she did want to have sex because she always had a crush on him. But the next morning she felt regretful and decided to call it a rape.

He had no way to defend himself from her accusations because of the fervent anti-male attitude that seems rampant in some colleges. He was assumed to be guilty by the college and the cops and even most people in his hometown. Even though he had NEVER been in any trouble ever. And no one had ever accused him of anything like that ever.

A girl can message a guy, bring a bottle of wine over, willingly climb into bed with him, have sex, spend the night---but if she says it was rape then everyone believes it to be so. And that is unfair, imo.

It does happen. But so does the other, where the boy takes advantage. It is hard for young people with hormones and all. But we should address this problem as a society by being aware and fair to all genders, and not try to blame just men or women for things that have gone wrong. I think there are many more cases of women actually being raped by men than women accusing men of raping them when that was not the case. However, when there is a false accusation, we should be sure the man (or woman) so accused gets a fair hearing. A rather tall order, but it would do the country good to recognize the problems with a rape culture, where one does exist.

 

[katydid23]

I often hear these questions at sexual assault response or prevention trainings around campus. The short answer to this question is, NO, women do NOT say they have been sexually assaulted or raped when they have had consensual sex that they regret.

Let’s break this down.

Do people who had a consensual sexual experience that they regret call it sexual assault?
NO, very rarely.[2]

Consider what happens when someone publicly says they have been a victim or survivor of sexual assault. Being a victim of any crime is not something that people are proud of or gain positive public recognition for reporting or discussing. Unfortunately, survivors commonly receive negative attention across news or social media for publicly discussing their experience.
Because many of us assume we know how we would react to trauma, victims/survivors are asked why they engaged in behaviors that happened before the assault (“why did you drink so much?”), which (intentionally or not) blame them for something which is not their fault.[3] When we take into consideration the low rates of convictions in the criminal system as well, it’s easy to understand why sexual assaults are underreported to the police, and rarely reported falsely. It only makes sense that some people who are assaulted never tell their friends[4] and avoid calling their experience “assault.”
Do people who experience sexual assault say they regret the experience?
YES, especially right afterwards.

In my experience, many people (men, women, and trans* folks) who experience unwanted and non-consensual sex blame themselves for what happened, even though it’s not their fault. They may mean that they regret actions they took before the assault, from being at a party to having anything to drink at all.
Many victims/survivors do not use the terms “rape” or “sexual assault” or “sexual violence” to describe their experience immediately after the incident. Since alcohol is involved in over half of sexual assaults on a college campus, folks may not remember what happened if they were blacked out or drunk. They also may not be able to clearly talk about what happened because of new research about neurobiology in trauma victims which indicates that the “brain’s prefrontal cortex—which is key to decision-making and memory—often becomes temporarily impaired.”[5] If folks do remember their unwanted sexual experience, they may say that
*They wouldn’t have engaged in the sexual activity if they had been sober,
i.e. they regret drinking
*They didn’t really want to have sex
*They did not want to have sex without protection, but their partner insisted
etc.
http://healthyheels.org/2013/11/07/r...exual-assault/
=======================================================================

Not all of this rings true for me. I have seen very different kinds of behavior. Having two kids recently going through college and hearing lots of stories, I have seen many examples of girls regretting sex and then saying it was not voluntary. I do not agree with this article saying it is rare. They may not report it to the police but many say so anyway to their friends, to save face.

And as for rape victims always feeling negative about being seen as that. I saw in my one horrible experience, quite the opposite. this girl milked the experience of being a 'victim.' She played it to the hilt and enjoyed it. I saw that first hand so I bet there are others who felt the same way.

If a rape victim who was drinking was impaired, did not remember and could not be in control because their neo-something cortex was impaired, then what about the males? Can he say the same thing? Is he supposed to take full blame for something when the female can say she had no control or memory of the event/

I guess I am just trying to put some control and accountability back in the females actions. Are we really going to say they are totally helpless, blameless, and it is all the males nasty fault? She was too drunk to know what was happening and to impaired to make decisions, but he was supposed to do all of the above or go to jail?

 

[BritsKate]

I think it is very much like what we are discussing. They drank together, she agreed to have sex, even though she felt conflicted because of her boyfriend. She gave him some mixed messages, then she decided she did want to have sex because she always had a crush on him. But the next morning she felt regretful and decided to call it a rape.

He had no way to defend himself from her accusations because of the fervent anti-male attitude that seems rampant in some colleges. He was assumed to be guilty by the college and the cops and even most people in his hometown. Even though he had NEVER been in any trouble ever. And no one had ever accused him of anything like that ever.

A girl can message a guy, bring a bottle of wine over, willingly climb into bed with him, have sex, spend the night---but if she says it was rape then everyone believes it to be so. And that is unfair, imo.

Lying about being raped is not the same thing as a) drinking, kissing, then saying no and having that no ignored or b) passing out, the man 'having sex' with the unconscious person or c) the woman was so wasted, even though conscious, she couldn't legally give consent.

In your example, consensual sex was fabricated into a rape. In mine, consent was never given which is the very definition of rape.

A girl can do everything right and still get raped. Then undergo questioning by police, invasive medical testing, family and friends telling her how she should have known better, feelings of shame and guilt, endure social media attacks on her sexual history, her clothing choices, sometimes even disclosing personal information, like her address...and just 2 out of every 100 rapists will be successfully prosecuted to conviction. Now, that's unfair.

My experience is very different to yours - ime, rape victims are very often not believed, sometimes even by those they love and trust most. And even when they are, almost always some portion of blame is bestowed upon them, whether warranted or not.

 

[bluesneakers]

Lying about being raped is not the same thing as a) drinking, kissing, then saying no and having that no ignored or b) passing out, the man 'having sex' with the unconscious person or c) the woman was so wasted, even though conscious, she couldn't legally give consent.

In your example, consensual sex was fabricated into a rape. In mine, consent was never given which is the very definition of rape.

A girl can do everything right and still get raped. Then undergo questioning by police, invasive medical testing, family and friends telling her how she should have known better, feelings of shame and guilt, endure social media attacks on her sexual history, her clothing choices, sometimes even disclosing personal information, like her address...and just 2 out of every 100 rapists will be successfully prosecuted to conviction. Now, that's unfair.

My experience is very different to yours - ime, rape victims are very often not believed, sometimes even by those they love and trust most. And even when they are, almost always some portion of blame is bestowed upon them, whether warranted or not.

This has been my experience also, though I've never been a victim of rape. Our society is so hyper-focused on the men that after those boys in Steubenville were found guilty of rape people were crying for THEM. People's hearts were breaking because the boys' lives were ruined. I saw very little sympathy and compassion for their victim (I heard horrible things about her, actually, that went way beyond just blaming her for what happened). And this scene gets played out over and over again, all over the country.

I'm sorry for what you've been through.

 

[katydid23]

Lying about being raped is not the same thing as a) drinking, kissing, then saying no and having that no ignored or b) passing out, the man 'having sex' with the unconscious person or c) the woman was so wasted, even though conscious, she couldn't legally give consent.

In your example, consensual sex was fabricated into a rape. In mine, consent was never given which is the very definition of rape.

A girl can do everything right and still get raped. Then undergo questioning by police, invasive medical testing, family and friends telling her how she should have known better, feelings of shame and guilt, endure social media attacks on her sexual history, her clothing choices, sometimes even disclosing personal information, like her address...and just 2 out of every 100 rapists will be successfully prosecuted to conviction. Now, that's unfair.

My experience is very different to yours - ime, rape victims are very often not believed, sometimes even by those they love and trust most. And even when they are, almost always some portion of blame is bestowed upon them, whether warranted or not.

I was raped at age 7 and it continued for a few years. SO I am far from an advocate for rapists. I have a lot of anger for anyone who assaults a male or a female. I want them to be prosecuted and found guilty.

But after what my friend went through in college I began to look closer at what I consider 'anti-male' attitudes that often exist. We tend to see them as guilty even when there is no evidence other than a woman's claims.

In your examples of drunk people, not being able to consent, I agree that is rape. But I still wonder if it is fair to say the woman has no accountability because she was too impaired. but then we hold the male accountable, and he was just as impaired. Is that fair? If her cortex was not functioning then his was not either. I am just trying to understand why one person is off the hook for not remembering or having control of the situation while the other is held fully responsible and going to jail. I know this is very very verboten to say, but it niggles at me. I guess because my sons best friend cried on our living room floor saying he was drunk and so was she but they are sending him to jail saying it was his fault for being too drunk and yet comforting her, and saying its not her fault, BECAUSE she was so drunk. Can you see the disparity?

So if 2 out of 100 rapists are ever convicted, and rape victims are rarely believed, then why are we telling our girls they can get into a mans bed and have some sexual interactions, but he will stop when she says no. It sounds like the OPPOSITE of what we should be telling them. No?

 

[Goose22]

What should we tell them?

 

[flourish]

Well, I guess I am not willing to call it rape if a girl climbs into a boys bed and begins sexual foreplay, with both of them being drunk. I know it is technically called rape but I think that is unfair. I do not think a girl should willingly get into a boys bed and begin mutual sexual acts with him if she is not prepared for it to continue. What is her motive for getting into bed and beginning that process? It seems wrong on many levels to do so. JMO

Wow, did you never make out without having sex? It's fun, and reasonable to expect in a relationship, even if you have been married for years. Is there some epidemic of drunk girls crawling into bed with a drunk guy then leaving him with blue ba!!$? And if so, even if it's a premeditated, purely on purpose "teasing," even if the girls had a freaking online group whose sole purpose was "tease and pass out," (NOT REAl, just making a point), IT IS NOT OKAY TO HAVE SEX WITH AN UNCONSCIOUS PERSON. No matter how horny you may be!!!


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[flourish]

Of course. And I am being stubborn about this because my sons best friend was arrested and charged with rape when he was a sophomore in college. And it nearly ruined his entire life. Luckily she finally admitted she lied and it was consensual.

She was a friend from high school, was going to be an incoming freshman , and messaged him that she wanted a tour of the campus. They had dated in high school so he did not think it was weird when she showed up with a bottle of wine. They had MUTUALLY agreed upon relations. She left the next morning, with a smile and a goodbye kiss. Then went to the police and said she was raped by him. It was HORRIBLE. For everyone involved it was a nightmare. His family was devastated and it hurt his father's family business for awhile. My son was devastated too. This was his best friend for years. He believed him but most people believed her.

She eventually admitted that she was afraid her boyfriend would find out she stayed the night there because as she was leaving that morning she saw a kid they both knew. So she claimed RAPE. even though she admitted she got drunk with him and voluntarily stayed in his bed, she said he forced her to have sex. And he had NO WAY of protecting himself at that point. Just her word against his.

Do you know how horrible it is for him to have an arrest for rape on his record? he is trying to have it expunged and it might be soon. But he dropped out of school because of the stress.

And boom there it is.


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[katydid23]

What should we tell them?

Not to get drunk and climb into bed with a man they don't know well if they don't want to be raped.

 

[katydid23]

Wow, did you never make out without having sex? It's fun, and reasonable to expect in a relationship, even if you have been married for years. Is there some epidemic of drunk girls crawling into bed with a drunk guy then leaving him with blue ba!!$? And if so, even if it's a premeditated, purely on purpose "teasing," even if the girls had a freaking online group whose sole purpose was "tease and pass out," (NOT REAl, just making a point), IT IS NOT OKAY TO HAVE SEX WITH AN UNCONSCIOUS PERSON. No matter how horny you may be!!


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Where did I ever say it was OK to have sex with an unconscious person?