VA - Freshman daughter, mom 'good time drop off' outrages VA university

[katydid23]

Actually 2/3rds of victims aged 18-29 had a prior relationship with their rapist. 34% of women surveyed in just one research study state they have been victims of sexual coercion by their intimate partners or husbands. It's especially prevalent in abusive relationships because as we should know, rape is about power and control, not sex.

But back to the drunk girl on campus scenario:

17 Beliefs About Sexual Assault That Are Totally Wrong
National Institute of Justice Statistics

from rthe link:

Acquaintance rapists — the kind who are likely to be targeting fellow students on campus — have a very specific MO. Those predatory men intentionally target women they perceive as vulnerable, and they often ply them with alcohol, sometimes until their victims pass out, and then they sexually assault them. They rely on the misconception that sexual assault is a miscommunication, a misunderstanding, a drunken mistake. And they rely on the fallacy that drunk girls are kinda-sorta asking for it. Because so many people believe these misconceptions, rapists get away with their crimes and seek out other victims. It's the exact opposite of a misunderstanding — it's a series of calculated decisions.""

Well, imo, that ^^ is kind of making my point for me. What I have been trying awkwardly to say is that it is wrong for us to assure our girls that they can safely drink with a guy, climb into his bed, do some sexual foreplay, then say NO, and go to sleep, confident in the fact that he will stop. The above seems to say that in fact, there are a lot of acquaintances that know from the start they will rape their 'friend' if need be.

We should not blame our girls but we should warn them, imo. But we seem to be doing the opposite. It is like saying ' i have the green light so I can walk as long as I am in the crosswalk', so I step off the curb, as two big rigs come racing down the hill.

 

[katydid23]

BBM

What if the guy is too drunk to understand that the girl is too drunk to give a valid consent? Would he still be a rapist? Or are both individuals equally responsible for what happens?

I had a situation years ago where a girl asked me to have sex with her but she was so hammered I said no. If I had been equally drunk and we had sex, would I have been a rapist?

JMO

One of the major complaints on 'male empowerment' sites is just what you described. According to the males complaints, being drunk can be used by a woman as an excuse for impairment, and any poor judgment that follows, whereas it is NOT allowed as an excuse for the males poor judgment.

 

[katydid23]

Yeah true...

But I think the (alleged) victim and the (alleged) perp are going to say the opposite things in most (alleged) rapes, no matter what the place and the circumstances and who agreed to do what first. It's hardly ever a crime that is simple to prove based on what the participants say, unless there's CCTV, physical injuries, DNA evidence, independent witnesses... etc. JMO.

Just because it's hard to prove doesn't mean it's not rape.

True. But if a guy pulls a woman off the street, hog ties her and takes her to an abandoned house, it is obvious. And if he drugs her at a party and takes her into a locked bedroom, she can later get drug tested for roofies. But if she willingly goes to his room alone at night, drinks with him, willingly gets in his bed, and begins hooking up, then it is much harder to bring rape charges against him. Only a small percentage are found guilty, apparently.

True, just because it is hard to prove, it doesn't mean it's not rape. All the more reason to warn our girls not to put themselves in a very dangerous situation. JMO

 

[MamaJoJo]

Fooling around is fun. Like, really fun. It sure would suck if fooling around was contingent on having intercourse. First base, second base, third base, and fourth base; so much fun! Ah, but only fun if you actually want to engage in each activity.

You wouldn't want someone to kiss you if you didn't want them to, right? Isn't it against the law for someone to feel you up, if you haven't given them permission? I believe the same goes for intercourse. Call me crazy.

I was at a dinner party with some friends a few months ago, people that I have been friends with for 5+years. We got on the topic of college rape, campus police responses, university responses, etc. A gentleman friend held fast to the belief that most (95%) of reported cases are that of the "drunken, regrettable sex" kind not true forcible rape. Everyone else believed the opposite. I, being the most outspoken of the group, pressed this guy about why he believed this. His only back up was the Duke lacrosse case but his other comments were shocking.

He said that...
- women should be careful what they ask for.
- if they go into a guy's bedroom they shouldn't be surprised if he has sex with them.
- merely the action of heavy foreplay is the permission slip for the man to engage in intercourse.
- it isn't the guy's responsibility to gauge the woman's level of self-esteem or protect her from herself.

Be careful what you ask for?! That statement goes around and around in my head. No one asks to be taken advantage of. No one asks to be raped. If the evening's festivities gives you blueballs gentlemen, go take care of it, without raping the instigator. And, to me, that also means not coercing someone into having sex. "But doesn't that feel good?" Well, yes that does feel good and, yes, I would like you to continue BUT I'd like to NOT GO ALL THE WAY, but that DOES feel good. I get that there is a grey area. I get that one is responsible for their own actions. I get that one way of not getting raped at a party is to not get drunk and not start kissing someone. But it's fun to have some drinks and kiss someone (and do more!). It is. All of it is fun...until it's not.

I believe this man is not the only man (or woman) who believes this. He happens to be married and is raising two boys. The cycle continues.

I will never break bread with him again.

ETA: Wow! You all were busy posting yesterday and last night. I missed it all. Now, let me catch up. I hope I didn't add fuel to the fire or post anything that's already been discussed ad nauseum.

 

[flourish]

We shouldn't just assume girls are always going to be safe, no, and no it wouldn't be prudent to say go ahead and get drunk and pass out whatever because you'll be fine because that's just stupid and irresponsible. However I certainly wouldn't ever want my daughter to feel like she'd be blamed or otherwise reprimanded if she did experience that. I would want my daughter to be able and secure coming to me. I'd of course want to ensure she gets proper morning after care and STD screenings etc. If I'd implied or indicated that I would be judgemental or otherwise unsupportive I'd worry my daughter just wouldn't talk to me about it and idk if she'd seek appropriate care, seeing as she's hypothetical.

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[flourish]

One of the major complaints on 'male empowerment' sites is just what you described. According to the males complaints, being drunk can be used by a woman as an excuse for impairment, and any poor judgment that follows, whereas it is NOT allowed as an excuse for the males poor judgment.

IMO if a man is cognizant enough to be able to maintain an erection well enough to penetrate an unhelpful woman then I'm going to be hard pressed to believe he was just so drunk that his penis fell into her vagina. There's probably cases where he wakes up with regret and confusion too but the intricacies of individual situations hopefully does get addressed by the justice system or outside mediation. There are exceptions to every rule but I'm comfortable with erring on the side of an alleged victim during initial investigations and risking the alleged offender being found innocent rather than approach with an attitude that every case is going to be the exception and create a distrustful environment for victims.

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[katydid23]

We shouldn't just assume girls are always going to be safe, no, and no it wouldn't be prudent to say go ahead and get drunk and pass out whatever because you'll be fine because that's just stupid and irresponsible. However I certainly wouldn't ever want my daughter to feel like she'd be blamed or otherwise reprimanded if she did experience that. I would want my daughter to be able and secure coming to me. I'd of course want to ensure she gets proper morning after care and STD screenings etc. If I'd implied or indicated that I would be judgemental or otherwise unsupportive I'd worry my daughter just wouldn't talk to me about it and idk if she'd seek appropriate care, seeing as she's hypothetical.

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Of course I wouldn't want to blame any one that was raped. I blamed myself as a young child for my uncle raping me because he told me it was my fault. I totally understand about not blaming the victim.

But maybe it is because I am a survivor of childhood abuse that I feel so strongly that we should not be giving girls this false sense of security. It seems like we are giving them the message it is ALL in the boys court and none of it is in theirs. And they can get drunk with the boy, get in his bed, do some heavy petting, and decide to just go to sleep, with no accountability if the guy , who is also drunk, feels like he has a green light. I know it is a very unpopular opinion here and I am being seen as blaming the victim. And maybe I am , in a way. But I think every case has to be looked at subjectively. If the boy is a good friend, someone you know and trust, then by all means, set your limits and feel confident.

But I see people saying that a girl can meet a drunk guy at a party, start making out with him, go up to his room, get in his bed, do sexual foreplay, and feel confident he will know when you change from green to red light. And I think that is unrealistic. I know that the new mantra is NO MEANS NO. But can one say YES YES YES YES YES and suddenly say no and not expect some confusion from the drunk boy?

So I guess I do blame a girl if she meets a stranger at a party, drinks with him, gets into his bed, begins to go to 2nd and 3rd base and then says no. I think it is irresponsible behavior. It does not mean it is not rape. But I still believe it is irresponsible and some poor choices on the girls part. And I think it is wrong to tell girls it is fine behavior and all the boy's fault.

Here come the tomatoes. :whiteflag:

 

[katydid23]

IMO if a man is cognizant enough to be able to maintain an erection well enough to penetrate an unhelpful woman then I'm going to be hard pressed to believe he was just so drunk that his penis fell into her vagina. There's probably cases where he wakes up with regret and confusion too but the intricacies of individual situations hopefully does get addressed by the justice system or outside mediation. There are exceptions to every rule but I'm comfortable with erring on the side of an alleged victim during initial investigations and risking the alleged offender being found innocent rather than approach with an attitude that every case is going to be the exception and create a distrustful environment for victims.

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From my fond memories, a college boy can maintain an erection, even when plastered. :wink:

 

[LinasK]

And I would take that a step further and warn the guys to not continue on when a girl has said no or is too drunk to consent. The guys don't get a free pass because the girl made out with him and then realized it would be a mistake to actually have sex. There are few cut and dry rape cases because it always turns into a he said she said situation. Both people are responsible for their actions. When a girl/woman says no, the guy/man needs to stop immediately.

MOO

BBM. Thank you!!!:clap::clap::clap: Can we put this on a plaque and bronze it for Bill Cosby???raying:

 

[flourish]

Of course NO means NO. But it is very unfair and even mean behavior on the girls part to get into bed, drunk, with a drunk teen boy, mess around sexually, get things going, then go to sleep. It is not that simple for a drunk teen boy to follow those rules. I am not saying he shouldn't, just saying it is unfair for girls to set up that type of situation.

Why is it all on the boys and no responsibility or accountability for the girls. If my daughter got drunk, and got into bed with a drunk boy, began doing sexual acts with him, and then said NO, then came home crying and saying she was raped, I would be angry at her. Maybe I am a cruel Mom, but that is how I would feel. You do not climb into a boys bed in the middle of the night, after drinking, begin making out and touching each other, and then act surprised if it went too far. I know that makes me a dinosaur and people will throw tomatoes, but it is how I feel. I would not put all of the blame on the boy but see it as shared responsibility for the outcome. JMO

I wonder how I ever got that impression.

Of course I wouldn't want to blame any one that was raped. I blamed myself as a young child for my uncle raping me because he told me it was my fault. I totally understand about not blaming the victim.

But maybe it is because I am a survivor of childhood abuse that I feel so strongly that we should not be giving girls this false sense of security. It seems like we are giving them the message it is ALL in the boys court and none of it is in theirs. And they can get drunk with the boy, get in his bed, do some heavy petting, and decide to just go to sleep, with no accountability if the guy , who is also drunk, feels like he has a green light. I know it is a very unpopular opinion here and I am being seen as blaming the victim. And maybe I am , in a way. But I think every case has to be looked at subjectively. If the boy is a good friend, someone you know and trust, then by all means, set your limits and feel confident.

But I see people saying that a girl can meet a drunk guy at a party, start making out with him, go up to his room, get in his bed, do sexual foreplay, and feel confident he will know when you change from green to red light. And I think that is unrealistic. I know that the new mantra is NO MEANS NO. But can one say YES YES YES YES YES and suddenly say no and not expect some confusion from the drunk boy?

So I guess I do blame a girl if she meets a stranger at a party, drinks with him, gets into his bed, begins to go to 2nd and 3rd base and then says no. I think it is irresponsible behavior. It does not mean it is not rape. But I still believe it is irresponsible and some poor choices on the girls part. And I think it is wrong to tell girls it is fine behavior and all the boy's fault.

Here come the tomatoes. :whiteflag:

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[katydid23]

I wonder how I ever got that impression.



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I think this whole subject triggers me too much so I should let it be. I just wish we would give girls more accountability and responsibility for their own actions and not hang it all on the boys. It seems to be taking us down the wrong road, imo.

 

[BritsKate]

We shouldn't just assume girls are always going to be safe, no, and no it wouldn't be prudent to say go ahead and get drunk and pass out whatever because you'll be fine because that's just stupid and irresponsible. However I certainly wouldn't ever want my daughter to feel like she'd be blamed or otherwise reprimanded if she did experience that. I would want my daughter to be able and secure coming to me. I'd of course want to ensure she gets proper morning after care and STD screenings etc. If I'd implied or indicated that I would be judgemental or otherwise unsupportive I'd worry my daughter just wouldn't talk to me about it and idk if she'd seek appropriate care, seeing as she's hypothetical.

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My daughter isn't hypothetical and at 15 and possibly borderline, she makes terrible decisions, a few of which have put her in harm's way despite me being a helicopter mom. I have my heart in my throat these days because I don't know that she will make positive choices for herself. I hope. I don't know that someone won't take advantage of her immaturity, illness, and insecurities. I hope not. But I do know if she makes a mistake, or a hundred, she doesn't deserve to be assaulted for them. And I know, much like you and your hypothetical little one, there's nothing that will keep me from helping her or loving her, as difficult as she sometimes makes it.

JMO and FWIW

 

[katydid23]

I think this whole subject triggers me too much so I should let it be. I just wish we would give girls more accountability and responsibility for their own actions and not hang it all on the boys. It seems to be taking us down the wrong road, imo.

Yes, I see that i did say I would be angry with my daughter if she got drunk with a boy, got in his bed, began to have sexual actions, then came home upset that she was raped. Disappointed is probably a better word. And in my case i would be because I always told her, since middle school, about the importance making good choices. My daughter began working as a model and an actress at age 10. She has always been beautiful and looked old for her age. And because she has been making a good living, she always had a lot of independence. She had responsibility and worked on set with adults. We went to locations out of town. Made friends with co-workers. Sometimes the actors were older than her. I tried to be her shadow but sometimes I had to give her time to be off with her friends. So YES, I admit I would have been angry if she had willingly put herself in a bad situation by climbing into bed with someone she did not know. Only because she knew better and we had talked about it a lot since she had been being 'hit upon' since she grew to 5ft7 at age 12. She looked 16 when she was in middle school.

And we always talked about how UNFAIR it was to tease boys or play with their emotions. I taught her to have accountability. Maybe because she has an older brother who also counseled her. I like to take a boys feelings and emotions into account too. They are not monsters.

 

[Donjeta]

What have you taught her brother about similar situations he may get into?

 

[katydid23]

What have you taught her brother about similar situations he may get into?

My son learned the hardest lesson when his best friend was arrested for date rape. He was the only one who believed his friend, who ended up being fully exonerated. But my son stopped dating for 2 years. I felt bad for him but he had no trust in college girls at the time. He felt they were teases and dishonest and I cant say I blame him after what his best friend went through.

Thankfully he is happily married with a beautiful baby girl now.

 

[bluesneakers]

IMO if a man is cognizant enough to be able to maintain an erection well enough to penetrate an unhelpful woman then I'm going to be hard pressed to believe he was just so drunk that his penis fell into her vagina. There's probably cases where he wakes up with regret and confusion too but the intricacies of individual situations hopefully does get addressed by the justice system or outside mediation. There are exceptions to every rule but I'm comfortable with erring on the side of an alleged victim during initial investigations and risking the alleged offender being found innocent rather than approach with an attitude that every case is going to be the exception and create a distrustful environment for victims.

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I am too. Every time a girl isn't believed, or is blamed and harassed after she's been raped I imagine it has an effect like a rock dropping into a lake. The ripples spread out and lots of girls get the message "If you're raped you'd best keep your mouth shut. Look what happened to her" and young men get the message it's safe to rape someone because odds are you'll get away with it or it's her fault anyway.

 

[katydid23]

I am too. Every time a girl isn't believed, or is blamed and harassed after she's been raped I imagine it has an effect like a rock dropping into a lake. The ripples spread out and lots of girls get the message "If you're raped you'd best keep your mouth shut. Look what happened to her" and young men get the message it's safe to rape someone because odds are you'll get away with it or it's her fault anyway.

How do you feel when a boy is falsely accused? Do girls get the message that it's OK to make up stories?

 

[Goose22]

This whole thread is really driving home the importance about teaching consent during sex ed. classes. It shouldn't be a gray area. If you are having sex with someone and they withdraw their consent and you keep going then you are raping them. It can be hard for some people to swallow because they think of rape as a jump-out-of-the-bushes type of deal but that's the truth. We need to teach our young folks that you should put your own emotions over that of your partner when you are feeling uncomfortable and want to stop and on the flipside, just because your feelings might be hurt and you want to keep going doesn't mean you're entitled to. No one is entitled to sex, ever.

To be honest this thread has been weighing heavily on me today

 

[bluesneakers]

How do you feel when a boy is falsely accused? Do girls get the message that it's OK to make up stories?

I'm not discussing false accusations or boys and their hurt feelings. Sorry.

 

[bluesneakers]

This whole thread is really driving home the importance about teaching consent during sex ed. classes. It shouldn't be a gray area. If you are having sex with someone and they withdraw their consent and you keep going then you are raping them. It can be hard for some people to swallow because they think of rape as a jump-out-of-the-bushes type of deal but that's the truth. We need to teach our young folks that you should put your own emotions over that of your partner when you are feeling uncomfortable and want to stop and on the flipside, just because your feelings might be hurt and you want to keep going doesn't mean you're entitled to. No one is entitled to sex, ever.

To be honest this thread has been weighing heavily on me today

I'm sorry it's weighing heavily on you, but what you've said makes a lot of sense. I think what you've written is compassionate and intelligent. Thank you.