VA - Freshman daughter, mom 'good time drop off' outrages VA university

[flourish]

From my fond memories, a college boy can maintain an erection, even when plastered. :wink:

But actually maneuvering said erection into a passed out person would likely require enough deliberate movements and actions that I don't buy into the idea of a guy being so drunk he didn't know his partner was asleep as he maneuvered her into a position for penetration and then subsequently continued intercourse to fruition.



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[flourish]

Yes, I see that i did say I would be angry with my daughter if she got drunk with a boy, got in his bed, began to have sexual actions, then came home upset that she was raped. Disappointed is probably a better word. And in my case i would be because I always told her, since middle school, about the importance making good choices. My daughter began working as a model and an actress at age 10. She has always been beautiful and looked old for her age. And because she has been making a good living, she always had a lot of independence. She had responsibility and worked on set with adults. We went to locations out of town. Made friends with co-workers. Sometimes the actors were older than her. I tried to be her shadow but sometimes I had to give her time to be off with her friends. So YES, I admit I would have been angry if she had willingly put herself in a bad situation by climbing into bed with someone she did not know. Only because she knew better and we had talked about it a lot since she had been being 'hit upon' since she grew to 5ft7 at age 12. She looked 16 when she was in middle school.

And we always talked about how UNFAIR it was to tease boys or play with their emotions. I taught her to have accountability. Maybe because she has an older brother who also counseled her. I like to take a boys feelings and emotions into account too. They are not monsters.

I am 100% certain I've never said anything to indicate I believe boys are monsters. I have a gazillion nephews and grand nephews, a son that passed and a super awesome stepson-to-be, all of whom I love and respect.

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[BritsKate]

How do you feel when a boy is falsely accused? Do girls get the message that it's OK to make up stories?

I think at this point it's becoming rather belabored to discuss false allegations. It's been linked many, many times that false allegations are rare and well in line with false allegations of other crimes. I am so sorry that you, your son's friend, and your son were so traumatized by his experiences but they are atypical. It doesn't make it right, of course, but nor should it be used to detract from the seriousness of rape itself. Most rape victims don't lie. It's that simple. Most don't even report their assault. Many don't tell their friends or family.

Considering the facts we know: 2-8% of reported rapes are false claims while 68% of sexual assaults haven't been reported in the last five years and only 2 out of every 100 rapists will be successfully convicted...yes, I think the message is painfully and evidently clear. Some girls might not be getting the message it isn't okay to make up stories but the overwhelming majority are certainly getting the message there's a high likelihood they'll be disbelieved, ridiculed, mocked or disparaged even for telling the truth.

What other possible message could we be sending when we throw out all rape allegations on the basis that one 'victim' lied? Or when a defense attorney questions what a victim was wearing when she was allegedly assaulted? Or when social media outs her address? Or when 97 out of 100 rapists will not spend one day in jail? Or that somehow her no didn't really mean no because she....?

So yes, false allegations are horrible and obviously need to be addressed (over here, people are prosecuted for making false claims) but they are rare. I'm sure it's not your intent, but citing rare false allegations to rebut a rape victims harassment feels very dismissive.

JMO

 

[Fairy1]

The thing is, alcohol (and drugs) impairs people's judgment and I would venture to say that alcohol is the main attraction at most frat parties. Alcohol and girls. That, IMO, is by design, not coincidence. And anyone - male or female - having too much to drink will most likely make poor choices. Choices they wouldn't make when sober. This is not an surprising discovery by these types of frat boys, it's an expectation. IMO.

 

[tangelo]

BBM

What if the guy is too drunk to understand that the girl is too drunk to give a valid consent? Would he still be a rapist? Or are both individuals equally responsible for what happens?

I had a situation years ago where a girl asked me to have sex with her but she was so hammered I said no. If I had been equally drunk and we had sex, would I have been a rapist?

JMO

in both of those scenarios the girl would have until graduation the option of deciding that she was raped. If she drops out she maintains the option for a while longer.
it's all title ix related & there are big bucks at stake for the schools.
and policy is that, in such situations, the female can only be victim & male the perp...which says a lot about the mindset to be found in education

 

[tangelo]

I am 100% certain I've never said anything to indicate I believe boys are monsters. I have a gazillion nephews and grand nephews, a son that passed and a super awesome stepson-to-be, all of whom I love and respect.

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but if a girl accused any of them of rape you'd believe the girl, right?

 

[flourish]

But actually maneuvering said erection into a passed out person would likely require enough deliberate movements and actions that I don't buy into the idea of a guy being so drunk he didn't know his partner was asleep as he maneuvered her into a position for penetration and then subsequently continued intercourse to fruition.



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So, my boyfriend brought up a point I'd forgotten to consider, which is drunk black-outs, not as an excuse or really a mitigating factor per se, but something I hadn't really thought about, as in dude could black out, have sex with drunk unconscious girl, and wake up freaking out, but that still doesn't make the rape of unconscious person not rape. We don't just excuse people who committed their crimes while under the influence. Anyway, just a thought I was pondering.


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[flourish]

but if a girl accused any of them of rape you'd believe the girl, right?

Obviously, I can't give a truly informed answer, I wouldn't automatically believe they were innocent, no. I would love and support their health, mental, physical and other. One can love and support another person without condoning or excusing their behavior. I have LOTS of nieces and nephews of two generations, and 100% of them are human, and, thus are imperfect.


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[al66pine]

Imo, banners are in bad taste. but wonder if IDK uni or frat's forcing banners removal or taking disciplinary actions (if that happens) would/will change any students' attitudes or actions.
Maybe uni or frat's response would be/will be more symbolic than successful in producing a desired or intended result.
Acknowledging, it's difficult to discuss OP, without veering into other subjects, some closely related, some not.


My comments in blue.
BritsKate Your posts over the years have been informative for me and I appreciate the benefit of your thoughts.

....Considering the facts we know: 2-8% of reported rapes are false claims while 68% of sexual assaults haven't been reported in the last five years and only 2 out of every 100 rapists will be successfully convicted...

Re accuracy, reliability, and relevance of info from earlier links, and whether still current -
The link "17 Beliefs About Sexual Assault That Are Totally Wrong" was to Aug. 2014 Cosmopolitan magazine,
w some links to studies*
- some w info from 1996 to early 2000s,
- some combining 'rape' w actions such as stalking,
- some not focused solely on college students,
- some covering only large urban counties.
___________________________________
* https://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles1/nij/182369.txt, "The Sexual Victimization of College Women"
http://www.nij.gov/topics/crime/rape-sexual-violence/pages/victims-perpetrators.aspx#note1
https://rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates Felony Defendents in Large Urban Counties

[QUOTE]. sbm jmo

 

[flourish]

I hope we can all agree that teaching children of all genders self-awareness techniques, social skills, self-control, respect for others and their needs as well as recognizing and assertively advocating for their own needs is an awesome thing to do.


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[lib's mom]

My daughter isn't hypothetical and at 15 and possibly borderline, she makes terrible decisions, a few of which have put her in harm's way despite me being a helicopter mom. I have my heart in my throat these days because I don't know that she will make positive choices for herself. I hope. I don't know that someone won't take advantage of her immaturity, illness, and insecurities. I hope not. But I do know if she makes a mistake, or a hundred, she doesn't deserve to be assaulted for them. And I know, much like you and your hypothetical little one, there's nothing that will keep me from helping her or loving her, as difficult as she sometimes makes it.

JMO and FWIW

I think your daughter is very lucky to have you as a mother.

 

[sorrell skye]

well, I shouldn't have said it like that because it is not what I was trying to say. I was trying to say it muddles the issue if a girl goes to a guys room, drinks with him, climbs into his bed, has sexual foreplay, and then says NO. I know that technically it is rape, but it sets up a situation where it is difficult to know what really happened because both parties are going to say the opposite things. It is not going to be cut and dry that anyone know what really happened. Which is why I would warn girls not to do that unless it was someone she was in a trusting relationship with. JMO

BBM

What if she doesn't go to his room? What if she isn't in his bed? What if the sexual assault occurs in another room, not on a bed - what if the make-out session and subsequent sexual assault happens elsewhere in the house (living room, kitchen, etc.). What if they're sitting in a car or outside somewhere? What if they're behind the bleachers at a sports event?

Do the above locations "muddle the issue" if one or both partners was drinking, makes out with the other partner, but then decides to not go any further?

Regardless of the location, it is more than "technically" rape. It is definitively rape if one partner says "no" or is incapable of affirming consent due to intoxication - even if heavy petting occurs prior to saying "no".

Even if one or both partners are naked or semi-clothed, if one partner says "no" or is incapable of affirming consent due to incapacitation from alcohol or drug ingestion, it is still definitively rape.

This is what we need to teach our young people - women and men alike.

Blaming rape victims for being in the wrong place, or for "leading" the rapist on perpetuates a culture in which victims are held accountable for the crime perpetrated against them.

 

[sorrell skye]

Of course I wouldn't want to blame any one that was raped. I blamed myself as a young child for my uncle raping me because he told me it was my fault. I totally understand about not blaming the victim.

But maybe it is because I am a survivor of childhood abuse that I feel so strongly that we should not be giving girls this false sense of security. It seems like we are giving them the message it is ALL in the boys court and none of it is in theirs. And they can get drunk with the boy, get in his bed, do some heavy petting, and decide to just go to sleep, with no accountability if the guy , who is also drunk, feels like he has a green light. I know it is a very unpopular opinion here and I am being seen as blaming the victim. And maybe I am , in a way. But I think every case has to be looked at subjectively. If the boy is a good friend, someone you know and trust, then by all means, set your limits and feel confident.

But I see people saying that a girl can meet a drunk guy at a party, start making out with him, go up to his room, get in his bed, do sexual foreplay, and feel confident he will know when you change from green to red light. And I think that is unrealistic. I know that the new mantra is NO MEANS NO. But can one say YES YES YES YES YES and suddenly say no and not expect some confusion from the drunk boy?

So I guess I do blame a girl if she meets a stranger at a party, drinks with him, gets into his bed, begins to go to 2nd and 3rd base and then says no. I think it is irresponsible behavior. It does not mean it is not rape. But I still believe it is irresponsible and some poor choices on the girls part. And I think it is wrong to tell girls it is fine behavior and all the boy's fault.

Here come the tomatoes. :whiteflag:

Katy, I'm responding to another post of yours and I hope you don't feel as if I'm picking on you. I'm not throwing tomatoes, but I sincerely wish to understand the bits I bolded in your post.

You stated: "they can get drunk with the boy, get in his bed, do some heavy petting, and decide to just go to sleep, with no accountability if the guy , who is also drunk, feels like he has a green light. I know it is a very unpopular opinion here and I am being seen as blaming the victim. And maybe I am , in a way"

My questions: If a girl falls asleep in a guy's bed after heavy petting, how would the girl's unconscious state give the guy "a green light" for sex? Is it just because she's in his bed, possibly drunk, after heavy petting?

Do you believe the girl owes the guy sex because she made out with him in his bed?

Why would a guy believe he has the go-ahead for sex with an unconscious girl, unless he's a sexual predator?

An unconscious person cannot give consent. This scenario is classified as sexual assault, regardless of whether or not prior heavy petting occurred and regardless of whether or not the victim willingly got into his bed before passing out or going to sleep.

 

[tangelo]

Obviously, I can't give a truly informed answer, I wouldn't automatically believe they were innocent, no. I would love and support their health, mental, physical and other. One can love and support another person without condoning or excusing their behavior. I have LOTS of nieces and nephews of two generations, and 100% of them are human, and, thus are imperfect.


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sounds like you wouldnt automatically believe the rape victim either. she could be a total liar huh?

 

[katydid23]

Interesting article by a very progressive male feminist:

http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/sexual-assault-on-men/rape-isnt-a-gender-issue/


Rape Isn’t a gender Issue

The United States Center for Disease Control found that men are sexually assaulted at nearly the same rate as women. USAToday reports that 43% of high school and young college men reported they had an unwanted sexual experience and 95% of that number reported their assailant was a female acquaintance.

On top of all of this, there’s the issue of false rape allegations. While the statistics are all over the map, ranging from 2% reported by feminists and 40% reported by men’s rights activists (MRAs), a recent article by Dara Lind: “What we know about false Rape Allegations, ” published on Vox.com, looked at a variety of studies and found women falsely report rape approximately 5.9% of the time. Which means of the 1.270 million women who reported being sexually assaulted, approximately 74,930 of these allegations were false. If 5.9% of females allegations of sexual assault are false, then based on Lara Stemple’s paper, males are sexually assaulted in the United States more often than females.

 

[katydid23]

Katy, I'm responding to another post of yours and I hope you don't feel as if I'm picking on you. I'm not throwing tomatoes, but I sincerely wish to understand the bits I bolded in your post.

You stated: "they can get drunk with the boy, get in his bed, do some heavy petting, and decide to just go to sleep, with no accountability if the guy , who is also drunk, feels like he has a green light. I know it is a very unpopular opinion here and I am being seen as blaming the victim. And maybe I am , in a way"

My questions: If a girl falls asleep in a guy's bed after heavy petting, how would the girl's unconscious state give the guy "a green light" for sex? Is it just because she's in his bed, possibly drunk, after heavy petting?

Do you believe the girl owes the guy sex because she made out with him in his bed?

Why would a guy believe he has the go-ahead for sex with an unconscious girl, unless he's a sexual predator?

An unconscious person cannot give consent. This scenario is classified as sexual assault, regardless of whether or not prior heavy petting occurred and regardless of whether or not the victim willingly got into his bed before passing out or going to sleep.

It does not necessarily mean he is assaulting an unconscious woman. When drunk people pass out in bed, after heavy petting, then after a few hours, people tend to wake up. When a young man wakes up in the morning with a woman in his bed, he may begin trying to 'convince' her or to arouse her in order to get back to where they left off. And I may be the only person here who does not blame him for doing so. If the girl was engaging in heavy petting then she was giving him the green light, in his mind. IMO, he is naturally going to continue down that road. If he forces himself on her then that is rape. I agree with that. But I think it is often more muddled and less cut and dry than that.

I am just trying to come to some kind of a balance between what I see happening now and what I would like to see---which would give some accountability back to the females as well.

 

[katydid23]

BBM

What if she doesn't go to his room? What if she isn't in his bed? What if the sexual assault occurs in another room, not on a bed - what if the make-out session and subsequent sexual assault happens elsewhere in the house (living room, kitchen, etc.). What if they're sitting in a car or outside somewhere? What if they're behind the bleachers at a sports event?

Do the above locations "muddle the issue" if one or both partners was drinking, makes out with the other partner, but then decides to not go any further?

Regardless of the location, it is more than "technically" rape. It is definitively rape if one partner says "no" or is incapable of affirming consent due to intoxication - even if heavy petting occurs prior to saying "no".

Even if one or both partners are naked or semi-clothed, if one partner says "no" or is incapable of affirming consent due to incapacitation from alcohol or drug ingestion, it is still definitively rape.

This is what we need to teach our young people - women and men alike.

Blaming rape victims for being in the wrong place, or for "leading" the rapist on perpetuates a culture in which victims are held accountable for the crime perpetrated against them.

There is a big difference between some rapes and other rapes, IMO. I do not blame rape victims in 98% of the cases. If you meet a guy at a party and you are just kissing him on the couch in the living room, and he rapes you, then it is 100% on him, not you. But IMO, if a girl meets a guy at a party, drinks with him, agrees to go up to his room, gets in his bed, has heavy petting and foreplay, for example, plays with his genitals, lets him fondle her---then I do believe that she shares some responsibility for the rape situation. She should be accountable for her very poor choices. Do not climb in a drunk guys bed and play with him sexually and then act shocked that he continued down that road that you were taking him down.

 

[pghbrandi]

I totally disagree. No matter what, a rape victim is NEVER to blame.


ETA I am responding to katydid' s post above mine.

 

[Montjoy]

There is a big difference between some rapes and other rapes, IMO. I do not blame rape victims in 98% of the cases. If you meet a guy at a party and you are just kissing him on the couch in the living room, and he rapes you, then it is 100% on him, not you. But IMO, if a girl meets a guy at a party, drinks with him, agrees to go up to his room, gets in his bed, has heavy petting and foreplay, for example, plays with his genitals, lets him fondle her---then I do believe that she shares some responsibility for the rape situation. She should be accountable for her very poor choices. Do not climb in a drunk guys bed and play with him sexually and then act shocked that he continued down that road that you were taking him down.

I find that the male bears 100% responsibility in both of those scenarios. Fondling or any other form of arousal, drunk or not, does not mean that intercourse is necessarily to follow. As a man, I find it highly insulting to suggest that we are either too hormone-driven or incapable of understanding boundaries or refusal to be fully responsible for our actions.

 

[LaneGirl]

I just read an article not too long ago about how common "black out" drinking is, where the person drinks so much they literally have no recollections of a certain time period. I think there could be situations when someone consents while having zero recollection. Or how someone can preform while having zero recollection of some parts of the evening.

I'm certainly not taking a stand here just saying there are some circumstances which would complicate things I would think. idk
http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/06/health/blackouts-drinking-book-sarah-hepola/